they have gone way over the line of disagreeing with your government. A swift ass-whooping would do them all some good.
[quote]derek wrote:
How many countries throw around the term “patriotism”? In almost every context it is used, America is the topic.[/quote]
It’d be healthy to ask yourself why that is the case.
Where I come from (i.e: Morocco), the patriotic card is always drawn by the regime to silence people critical of the awful Sahara situation. It is used by the Chinese to justify their atrocities and has been extensively used during the soviet era. Franco and Hitler were also big fans of the concept. I didn’t mean it to sound like I’m singling out the US but understand why you’d get the impression. I’ll try to remove ambiguity in subsequent posts.
These kooks have a purpose…
It allows the right wing warmongering cheerleaders to brand everyone that doesn’t agree with their own views with the same label.
Mission accomplished!
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
The people in the protests should all be drafted and sent to shovel shit in Louisiana. 
Why? Isn’t there any “shit” in Ohio?[/quote]
It is a quote from Patton.
[quote]vroom wrote:
These kooks have a purpose…
It allows the right wing warmongering cheerleaders to brand everyone that doesn’t agree with their own views with the same label.
Mission accomplished![/quote]
It is a vast right wing conspiracy.
[quote]derek wrote:
The generalization Lixy was making sucks.
[/quote]
I would say it is dead on.
Can you define what patriotism means? I’ll help you out.
From dictionary.com:
devoted love, support, and defense of one’s country; national loyalty.
I’ll tell you why I think patriotic arguments are illogical. It is because one is forced into making the assumption that everyone has or should have the same devotion for one’s nation as everyone else. It is also based on the notion of nationalistic pride which smacks of supremacy over other nations. For example, the idea that the US is the greatest nation on the planet. While it may be ok to feel that way, acting in such a manner is not. We could compile many examples from history to show where this line of thinking went wrong.
[quote]vroom wrote:
These kooks have a purpose…
It allows the right wing warmongering cheerleaders to brand everyone that doesn’t agree with their own views with the same label.
Mission accomplished![/quote]
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
It is a vast right wing conspiracy.[/quote]
With us or against us…
Is there no end to the evils of the Right?
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
derek wrote:
The generalization Lixy was making sucks.
I would say it is dead on.
Can you define what patriotism means? I’ll help you out.
[/quote]
I would say we are discussing the original post here. I may be wrong (I’m not) but the title of this thread is “Questionable Patriotism” and the subject was America and Americans.
In that context, Lixy used the term “racism”. So, if you want to talk about patriotism in general, maybe it should be in a thread not specifically about American patriotism.
Oh, and thanks for the definition. I had no idea what it meant.
[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:
So they exercise the rights they have in this country, while simultaneously refusing to the idea of a country. And we respect their right hold and express their beliefs, under the constitution of this country. One might find their opinions therefore rather trivial.
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
This is completely irrelevant. This right (no, ability) exists anywhere in the world. I reject the idea that I need a “sovereign nation” to give me rights that exist regardless of where I live–kind of like not needing the Pope to speak to God. Whether it is allowed or not is a different question. We just happen to live in a country that allows it. Oh well, freedom of speech is painful sometimes–as it should be to be effective.[/quote]
For semantics, I suppose I could rephrase the point as:
So they exercise the rights they have while the government of this country, in contrast with the behavior of many others, does not interfere, while simultaneously refusing to the idea of a country. And we respect their right hold and express their beliefs, because we limit the government under the constitution of this country from exercising its police power to punish them for, or prevent them from, exercising those rights. One might find their opinions therefore rather trivial.
[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:
Cultural supremicism – or at least superiority – I could grant you. But not racism – sometimes perhaps correlated with, but certainly not another way of saying the same thing.
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Maybe not in the US as we pretty much live in a mixed society; however, there are places in the world where nationality and race are the same thing. This I believe was the generalization that lixy was making.[/quote]
Not many. Even in Africa you have tribal-based genocides within nation states. I suppose there are a few – like Japan for instance – but it’s not a very broad statement.
[quote]vroom wrote:
These kooks have a purpose…
It allows the right wing warmongering cheerleaders to brand everyone that doesn’t agree with their own views with the same label.
Mission accomplished![/quote]
Its all part of a ‘vast rightwing conspiracy’, right? Glad to see you and Hillary are on the reservation.
[quote]derek wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
derek wrote:
The generalization Lixy was making sucks.
I would say it is dead on.
Can you define what patriotism means? I’ll help you out.
I would say we are discussing the original post here. I may be wrong (I’m not) but the title of this thread is “Questionable Patriotism” and the subject was America and Americans.
In that context, Lixy used the term “racism”. So, if you want to talk about patriotism in general, maybe it should be in a thread not specifically about American patriotism.
Oh, and thanks for the definition. I had no idea what it meant.
[/quote]
I am calling shenanigans on anyone who uses patriotism, carte blanche, to disqualify something they do not agree with. How can patriotism define “acceptable” behavior in a country that expects us to speak out against it when we disagree?
As far as “American Patriotism”, I couldn’t think of anything more fascist.
Yes, derek, we all know, no one is more patriotic than you. Wave your flag so so we can be sure.
[quote]derek wrote:
In that context, Lixy used the term “racism”. So, if you want to talk about patriotism in general, maybe it should be in a thread not specifically about American patriotism.[/quote]
You seem to be overly sensitive about that!
Everyone knows that American patriotism is a noble thing while any-other-kind of patriotism is evil.
Seriously, no matter what, patriotism will always have a latent supremacist component. Racism is but a step away…
[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
So they exercise the rights they have while the government of this country, in contrast with the behavior of many others, does not interfere, while simultaneously refusing to the idea of a country. And we respect their right hold and express their beliefs, because we limit the government under the constitution of this country from exercising its police power to punish them for, or prevent them from, exercising those rights. One might find their opinions therefore rather trivial.
[/quote]
What do “unalienable rights” have to do with this country? These are rights that exist, de facto. The US recognizes the need to protect them because it understands the nature of how “free speech” works.
If they were waving US flags and praising “the troops” would they need protection? A protest of that nature would serves no purpose. It isn’t focused on “change” but rather legitimizing the status quo which no one feels threatened by. There are reasons why leaders in authoritarian regimes regularly hold these types of rallies and “encourage” the citizens to participate–its called willful indoctrination.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
As far as “American Patriotism”, I couldn’t think of anything more fascist.
Yes, derek, we all know, no one is more patriotic than you. Wave your flag so so we can be sure.[/quote]
You are a clown. I actually disagree with many things “we’ve” done. Patriotism means love for one’s homeland. It does not mean that I think my homeland is infallable.
Are you saying patriotism and critisism of your government are mutually exclusive in a patriots mind?
I AM patriotic, you bet your ass. I also know America is far from perfect. I also know I would not want to live anyplace else. (Ooops, sorry to come off sounding racist again!)
What’s next? Are you going to deride me for loving my hometown now?
[quote]lixy wrote:
Everyone knows that American patriotism is a noble thing while any-other-kind of patriotism is evil.
Seriously, no matter what, patriotism will always have a latent supremacist component. Racism is but a step away…[/quote]
Where the Hell do you come up with this stuff?
I don’t care where you are from, love for your country and your dedication to it is always a good thing. I’m assuming that your patriotism is used in positive ways. When it’s not, it’s no longer patriotism, it’s something entirely different. Just as making love is always good but rape is always bad, they are not the same thing even though “sex” occurs in both. Making love is NOT rape and rape is NOT making love. Rape is not a stronger, more dedicated form of making love.
See the difference?
Again, I don’t care where you are from. America, Canada, Mexico, Iraq. If you love your country and want the best for it and expect the best from it, you are a patriot. I do not and cannot see a difference depending on where you live.
[quote]derek wrote:
Are you saying patriotism and critisism of your government are mutually exclusive in a patriots mind?[/quote]
Not mutually exclusive but it clutters the judgement. You know, some surrender it to God, others (self-proclaimed sophisticated people) to the flag.
Haven’t heard much criticism of the craze the neocons embarked on from your part. Criticism, which is nearly universal might I add.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
If they were waving US flags and praising “the troops” would they need protection? A protest of that nature would serves no purpose. It isn’t focused on “change” but rather legitimizing the status quo which no one feels threatened by. There are reasons why leaders in authoritarian regimes regularly hold these types of rallies and “encourage” the citizens to participate–its called willful indoctrination.[/quote]
I can understand the desire to protest an act of government such as going to war even though I do not wholly agree with the premise. I do not see why anyone would protest the troops that are doing thier best to do what is right in light of such controversial war. Does anyone think the troops enjoying themselves over there?
What exactly does burning a dummy dressed in BDU’s accomplish other than inciting violence and retribution?
[quote]lixy wrote:
Haven’t heard much criticism of the craze the neocons embarked on from your part. Criticism, which is nearly universal might I add.
[/quote]
You haven’t asked might I add.
What craze exactly did the neocons embark on again?
By the way, when I feel there is something to criticize, I will do it. And I have. However, I’m not going to bad-mouth what I belive in just to proove to you that I am open-minded.