[quote]rainjack wrote:
wesstangl wrote:
OFF TOPIC
Did you know that TEXAS has the right too seperate.
Your damn right we do. The only state that fought for its own independence. [/quote]
We also have the right to break into five different states if we choose.
[quote]wesstangl wrote:
LOVE IT OR HATE IT , YOU GOT TO ADMIT ,QUEBEC HAS THE BEST LOOKING WOMEN!
[/quote]
You obviously haven’t been to Ottawa lately.
This is a problem as old as Canada itself, and I really have a hard time relating to the seperatist sentiment in Quebec.
Here we have Europe doing everything in its power to try and consolidate so that it can play a part in what goes on in the world, and Quebec is wanting to do the opposite.
Part of this problem is that the feds have their fingers in too much of what should be up to the provinces. I’m a big fan of a smaller federal government, I wish the feds would stop micromanaging this country. Quebec isn’t the only province that gets shafted all too often (as Vroom stated).
And every Canadian should be as outraged about Gomery as the people in Quebec are. It’s our money too. But oh no, we’re too spineless to actually hold our gov’t accountable for it’s actions (sorry, side rant).
I believe the people of Quebec are being lied to. You are surrounded, totally, by an english majority in Canada and the US. Having your own country won’t change this. And it certainly won’t improve things in Quebec. You lose the leverage of having a large market and replace it with a small target one.
With death and birth rates in Quebec being fairly close (which is similiar to all provinces) immigration and cross provincial movement of people is the only real way to fuel a economy that is going to grow. How will this happen in an independant Quebec? This is as big a danger to your culture as anything, and it has nothing to do with english Canada.
How much english economical investment (remember, english is the majority, hence has the most money to invest) are you going to get? The Bank of Montreal now has it’s headquarters in Toronto for cry’n out loud (banks don’t like political turmoil). How many large english companies are going to decide it just isn’t worth the hassle of staying in “just Quebec”? Or that it isn’t worth the expense of printing different labels solely in french for such a small market?
Can you not forsee an exodus of english capital out of the region if Quebec seperates?
Maybe I’m wrong here, but I think Quebec better be careful that it doesn’t get what it asks for.
Quebec and Texas, go for it! More power to you!
[quote]rainjack wrote:
harris447 wrote:
wesstangl wrote:
OFF TOPIC
Did you know that TEXAS has the right too seperate.
You have no idea how happy that would make so, so many people.
Your jealosy is showing.
Texas seceding would make REAL Texans a lot happier than it would a bunch of Jersey faggots.
[/quote]
“faggots”
Nice. Your red neck is showing.
Hey hey…Towner24 makes some really
good points about economics, but I
gotta disagreee about this bit:
They speak French in Quebec? Follow French customs and have a french culture? Wow. But that isn’t what they mean is it? No, it’s a talking point…doesn’t matter how many special regulations are set up in Quebec, it’ll never be enough - classic us vs them political rhetoric “the rest of Canada doesn’t understand us, but I do! So remember on monday to vote for me”
In the constitutional referendum(1992 I think) before the separtation referendum the phrase that was repeated until it was seared into my conciousness was “distinct society”. If memory serves, in the Canadian Constitution Quebec has a “distinct society clause”, meaning they can enact laws (like the French on sign laws) in order to preserve thier um, distinct society. This “talking point” I see rather as an issue of being able to recognize OFFICIALLY (which I guess is kinda important) that Quebec is of a dramatically different cultural makeup than the rest of Canada, and that they should be able to dtermine how best to preserve that identity.
Not that there aren’t differences between the other provinces, but they speak a totally different language in Quebec fer starters, eh?
[quote]vroom wrote:
Paul,
I see you intend to keep up your streak of brillian commentary on political matters. Do you have any idea what any of this is about at all?
–
If Quebec really wants to separate I say let them. No matter how much control they feel they want, you can’t change the realities of the world today.
Frankly, Quebec still wants to consider itself 1/2 of Canada, as it was when Canada was first formed. I’m afraid that will never happen. If they go, then we can stop sinking money into Quebec and pull out all of the federal programs located there.
I know Quebecois feel they are actually putting a lot of money into Canada and not getting enough out. I’m afraid that all provinces feel that way, so they might be surprised if they hop out that they aren’t suddenly enriched in some way.
Finally, the writer doesn’t sound all that local, so I’m not very sure of the accuracy of the comments. The writing seems a bit stilted, as if written by someone who isn’t really from the area. The byline would suggest otherwise though, so I’m curious about that.
As has happened before on this type of topic, I’d really like to hear from people in Quebec on this issue. I’m not anti-Quebec and I would like them to stay in Canada, but the rest of Canada has to hear about and understand their real concerns if anything is to happen.
I fear that all the discontent is only expressed clearly internally, so that the rest of the country simply despises the repeated attempts to leave… and then they express themselves like the illustrious bunion above.
On a side note, I drove to Meech Lake and such via Gatineau Park just the other weekend. Nice area. Too bad past events in the region don’t seem to have mended things.[/quote]
Why let them? I can’t recall throughout history a country just allowing a massive portion to leave. We shouldn’t be the first to cower. What message would that send to the international community? They would think we are a bunch of cowering pussies. Some in power in Quebec realize the inevitability that they can’t maintain their language and culture while surrounded by so many English. Seperatism is just a desperate, stubborn attempt to remain different from the rest of Canada. They have never forgiven themselves for getting wupped way back when. Now the youth are getting taught seperatism bullshit.
The reason it matters if the author is local is because we don’t know if the author has any real understanding of the issues of the Quebecois.
If this is some anglophone import telling other anglophones why Quebec wants to separate, there is a very good chance the article contains more misinformation than information.
Anyway, there are some economic realities that are not going to go away, ever. First, most of the world does business in English, going it alone won’t encourage anyone outside of Quebec to speak French.
Some costs that may be overlooked by quick thoughts of separation:
Adoption of share of national debt. You can’t just walk away from the national debt because you don’t want to be part of Canada. This isn’t a Quebec specific penalty, it would apply to any province wanting to leave.
Creation of a new currency. Canada isn’t going to issue currency for Quebec, though Quebec might use Canadian dollars unofficially for a while. Again, not a Quebec specific concept, true for any province.
Creation of a standalone military force, if any, as Canadian Armed Forces are used for Canadian purposes. Again, true for anyone leaving the country.
Loss of businesses and skilled management. Many people performing interprovincial commerce and international commerce will up and leave the province, prefering to be within Canada instead. Again, true for any province leaving Canada, but worse for Quebec due to language issues.
The idea of a half independent sovereignty-association is not going to fly with the rest of the country. Nobody is going to want to share Canadian services with a region that does want to actually be part of Canada. You are either in or you are all the way out. Don’t assume anyone will accept another alternative.
I really have to emphasize, these issues are not punative in any way, they just simply are the reality of the situation.
Back to the topic at hand, I think Quebec culture is ailing, and it isn’t because Quebec is part of Canada. Times have changed, the world has modernized, and Quebec is forced to adjust like everyone else. Blaming the rest of Canada for this is a great tactic for those that want to be separate, but splitting off won’t fix these issues either.
So, again, really, if Quebec just wants to be a different country, that is fine, but it must realize the probable costs of this action and more importantly, what being independent won’t be able to do for Quebec. It won’t shield Quebec culture from the rest of the world – at least not if Quebec wants to conduct business with anyone else and maintain a reasonable standard of living for it’s citizens.
If Quebec does secede, do they have enough of a tax base to maintain infrastructure, a military, and education? Have they given any of this real thought? I’m not trying to poke fun here, but Canada as a country has a rather samll population, and therefore, a small tax base. If Just a province were to go it alone, i really don’t think it would be feasible. I’d be curious to hear some input from other Canadians on this issue.
harris: i think rainjack is just expressing pride of being a texan. We think it is cool that we were granted the ability to leave at any time that we want but none of us except for a few crazies would ever want to do that.
Y’all having a good weekend?
[quote]thabigdon24 wrote:
harris: i think rainjack is just expressing pride of being a texan. We think it is cool that we were granted the ability to leave at any time that we want but none of us except for a few crazies would ever want to do that.
Y’all having a good weekend? [/quote]
A lovely one, especially with my Giants shutting out the dreaded Redskins.
And, I would have had no problem–none, whatsoever–with Rainman had he expressed himself like you did.
Instead, he chose to spray his hate and ignorance at acomment that I thought anyone could tell was made facetiously.
But, that seems to be par for the course with him.
Rest assured, I don’t think all Texans are nutjobs. I couldn’t have anything but fondness for a state that produced Stevie Ray Vaughan, Bill Hicks, and the finest variation of poker there is.
Winger11 - Feel free to disagree, but my point isn’t as far from the one you made as you might think.
My point was that there isn’t a man, woman or child in Canada who doesn’t recognize that Quebec is distinctly different from other areas of the country.
What you are getting at is the need to officially/politically recognize that “distinctness” by degree of it’s magnitude. However, by your own admission, there is already clauses in place that attempt that. Improvements may be needed, I don’t know…I don’t live there.
But what I’m saying is that it doesn’t matter how many improvements, missteps, official declarations, dog and pony shows there are it will never be enough.
And there will be a politician there to make his career off that. You can’t go wrong running against Ottawa/Canada in Quebec.
Interestingly, you also can’t go wrong running against Ottawa in other parts of the country as well.
[quote]harris447 wrote:
Nice. Your red neck is showing.
[/quote]
I don’t live in a trailer, own a firearm, drink beer, or own a 4X4. I probably have more college hours than you and your closest friend put together. I am hardly a redneck. Just because I detest pencil-necked idiots like you does not make me a red neck.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
harris447 wrote:
wesstangl wrote:
OFF TOPIC
Did you know that TEXAS has the right too seperate.
You have no idea how happy that would make so, so many people.
Your jealosy is showing.
Texas seceding would make REAL Texans a lot happier than it would a bunch of Jersey faggots.
[/quote]
I thought you could do better than that one. The classic comeback of, “Yea, well…you’re gay!” Yea! BEAT THAT ONE!!
It would make us all very happy around here. I always say we should have let the south go anyway. (I’m kidding. Kind of.)
Its like my movement to get North Jersey to sperate from south jersey. Cause everyone up here knows the 609 area code is just full of people who are a little bit different. Kind of like Texans.
[quote]paul bunyan wrote:
vroom wrote:
Paul,
I see you intend to keep up your streak of brillian commentary on political matters. Do you have any idea what any of this is about at all?
–
If Quebec really wants to separate I say let them. No matter how much control they feel they want, you can’t change the realities of the world today.
Frankly, Quebec still wants to consider itself 1/2 of Canada, as it was when Canada was first formed. I’m afraid that will never happen. If they go, then we can stop sinking money into Quebec and pull out all of the federal programs located there.
I know Quebecois feel they are actually putting a lot of money into Canada and not getting enough out. I’m afraid that all provinces feel that way, so they might be surprised if they hop out that they aren’t suddenly enriched in some way.
Finally, the writer doesn’t sound all that local, so I’m not very sure of the accuracy of the comments. The writing seems a bit stilted, as if written by someone who isn’t really from the area. The byline would suggest otherwise though, so I’m curious about that.
As has happened before on this type of topic, I’d really like to hear from people in Quebec on this issue. I’m not anti-Quebec and I would like them to stay in Canada, but the rest of Canada has to hear about and understand their real concerns if anything is to happen.
I fear that all the discontent is only expressed clearly internally, so that the rest of the country simply despises the repeated attempts to leave… and then they express themselves like the illustrious bunion above.
On a side note, I drove to Meech Lake and such via Gatineau Park just the other weekend. Nice area. Too bad past events in the region don’t seem to have mended things.
Why let them? I can’t recall throughout history a country just allowing a massive portion to leave. We shouldn’t be the first to cower. What message would that send to the international community? They would think we are a bunch of cowering pussies. Some in power in Quebec realize the inevitability that they can’t maintain their language and culture while surrounded by so many English. Seperatism is just a desperate, stubborn attempt to remain different from the rest of Canada. They have never forgiven themselves for getting wupped way back when. Now the youth are getting taught seperatism bullshit.
[/quote]
Hahaha. I mean, come on now. Not that I have anything against Canada, but I mean c’mon. The international stage? Canada isn’t exactly…you know…feared. You’re Canada. Like a big teddy bear from the north.
It doesn’t mean your cowering pussies. You might be smart enough to avoid a war that doesn’t need to be fought.
A war between Canadians. What a novel idea. Ten bucks says the French side loses ;).
Irish: I think your missing the point about Canada’s international concerns…In order to get trade dealings w/ other countries and frequently tourism you need international dealings w/ other countries. You don’t need to be feared or respected necessarily just be a player and play nice so you’ll get some trade and tourism.
[quote]doogie wrote:
rainjack wrote:
wesstangl wrote:
OFF TOPIC
Did you know that TEXAS has the right too seperate.
Your damn right we do. The only state that fought for its own independence.
We also have the right to break into five different states if we choose.[/quote]
I hope this doesnt sound ignorant , but why would texas want to go into 5 five different states?
[quote]vroom wrote:
Who cares if the author isnt local.He brings up alot of good points.
The reason it matters if the author is local is because we don’t know if the author has any real understanding of the issues of the Quebecois.
If this is some anglophone import telling other anglophones why Quebec wants to separate, there is a very good chance the article contains more misinformation than information.
Anyway, there are some economic realities that are not going to go away, ever. First, most of the world does business in English, going it alone won’t encourage anyone outside of Quebec to speak French.
Some costs that may be overlooked by quick thoughts of separation:
Adoption of share of national debt. You can’t just walk away from the national debt because you don’t want to be part of Canada. This isn’t a Quebec specific penalty, it would apply to any province wanting to leave.
Creation of a new currency. Canada isn’t going to issue currency for Quebec, though Quebec might use Canadian dollars unofficially for a while. Again, not a Quebec specific concept, true for any province.
Creation of a standalone military force, if any, as Canadian Armed Forces are used for Canadian purposes. Again, true for anyone leaving the country.
Loss of businesses and skilled management. Many people performing interprovincial commerce and international commerce will up and leave the province, prefering to be within Canada instead. Again, true for any province leaving Canada, but worse for Quebec due to language issues.
The idea of a half independent sovereignty-association is not going to fly with the rest of the country. Nobody is going to want to share Canadian services with a region that does want to actually be part of Canada. You are either in or you are all the way out. Don’t assume anyone will accept another alternative.
I really have to emphasize, these issues are not punative in any way, they just simply are the reality of the situation.
Back to the topic at hand, I think Quebec culture is ailing, and it isn’t because Quebec is part of Canada. Times have changed, the world has modernized, and Quebec is forced to adjust like everyone else. Blaming the rest of Canada for this is a great tactic for those that want to be separate, but splitting off won’t fix these issues either.
So, again, really, if Quebec just wants to be a different country, that is fine, but it must realize the probable costs of this action and more importantly, what being independent won’t be able to do for Quebec. It won’t shield Quebec culture from the rest of the world – at least not if Quebec wants to conduct business with anyone else and maintain a reasonable standard of living for it’s citizens.[/quote]
I remember back ; I think in the late 80s , there was talk that if Quebec were to seperate what would they do about the military . It was suggested that they would trade natural resourses ( water) with the states for military protection.
As for the loss of buiness personal , I d think that Quebec would easily hire workers from the States or Canada or any other place in the world and bring them to work in quebec. Just because someone chooses to work in a country for a few years doesnt mean they loss their native citizenship.
This would be similar to the ESL ( ENGLISH AS A SECOND LANGUAGE) in asia. Various asian countries import anglo teachers from anglo countries to teach english.
[quote]wesstangl wrote:
I hope this doesnt sound ignorant , but why would texas want to go into 5 five different states?
[/quote]
Because it’s really big.
People on the border have very little in common with people in the panhandle, ect.
That is why Texas History is taught in 4th and 7th grade. It gives us a common mythology to hold onto.
If we did break into 5 states, though, that would mean 8 more Senators from Texas.
[quote]thabigdon24 wrote:
Irish: I think your missing the point about Canada’s international concerns…In order to get trade dealings w/ other countries and frequently tourism you need international dealings w/ other countries. You don’t need to be feared or respected necessarily just be a player and play nice so you’ll get some trade and tourism.[/quote]
Haha, I understand that, but I don’t think he was saying it in the way that you are. His theory about starting a civil war over it certainly doesn’t make any country look too good. His logic is a bit skewed…
I don’t understand the whole thing. I am sure there is a cultural difference in Canada. But enough to seperate over? Is speaking in French really that bad? It just doesn’t seem to make sense to me to go through all this trouble to secede. I still want to hear from these Quebec bastards and see what the deal is.