Push for Higher Minimum Wage

[quote]ZJStrope wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:
This is absolutely true, but is difficult in some situations. My father has been a teacher for a long time (almost 38 years). He is conservative, but not uberly so.

He told me once it is REALLY easy to talk about all the things high school kids need to do. They need to show up on time. They need to dress better. They need to work harder. They need to be less lazy. They need to get a job.

He said the problem is a lot of people have had great MODELS for them of proper behavior. Yet when you don’t see someone get up for work, when you don’t see someone dress appropriately, when you don’t see someone take care of their body hygiene wise, when you don’t see someone doing these things at home everyday it is difficult to learn the value in them.

I’m guessing a lot of us had great models for behavior at some point in our life. Some kids don’t “understand” the value of hard work because it has never been presented to them. They have watched deadbeats in their family be deadbeats and for some of them it doesn’t make sense to do more. Some people will see those situations and work their ass off to not be like their loser mom or loser dad.

Some people need better models. I learned about proper hygiene, I learned about hard work, I learned about being on time, I learned about what to wear for an interview and what to say from my family.

The easy answer is always easy. My dad is a get off your ass and do something guy, but he made me think about these things a bit differently and realize how lucky I am to have been raised by good people.

I don’t have problems doing what I know needs to be done because I was taught how and WHY it needs to be done.

Sad situations. The solution is not more government, but shitty parents is not a liberal or conservative problem. It’s a society one. And I can point to tons of people who say they are conservative and vote Republican who are living off the government teat all day long. Come to my area of Kansas and realize how much it’s not just liberals wanting a big active government to bail them out. [/quote]

Absolutely. So the question is, how do you break the cycle?

What is obvious to us (i.e. if you don’t want to end up like dad, you probably are best NOT following what dad does) is certainly not obvious to the individual who’s naturally ingrained to mimic those who nurture them.

One would think having outside influences like teachers and community leaders (think church volunteer organizations, etc) would be enough to at least initiate the questioning of one’s in home role models, but you often see that’s not the case. The influence and bond is just to strong and by the time you’re old enough to figure things out on your own, it’s to late. You are stuck in the same rut with the same underlying thought…that life isn’t fair and the “man” is holding me down.[/quote]

Not to mention (and I work with a lot of teachers in my education consulting job) the pressure you get from people when you take a more active role.

A local school I’m near got in trouble for helping a 6 year old clean up because she kept coming into school in ratty clothes and smelling of feces. Some people got up in arms about the government doing something it did not need to do.

Actually, (and I’m a limited government guy) someone NEEDED to do something about that. I don’t fault that school one iota for attempting to help this girl out because her parents clearly couldn’t.

[quote]H factor wrote:

Not to mention (and I work with a lot of teachers in my education consulting job) the pressure you get from people when you take a more active role.

A local school I’m near got in trouble for helping a 6 year old clean up because she kept coming into school in ratty clothes and smelling of feces. Some people got up in arms about the government doing something it did not need to do.

Actually, (and I’m a limited government guy) someone NEEDED to do something about that. I don’t fault that school one iota for attempting to help this girl out because her parents clearly couldn’t. [/quote]

No shit.

The famous good citizen laws combined with people wanting you to keep to yourself.

You’re damned if you do something but just as likely damned if you don’t do something. People are a strange breed.

[quote]ZJStrope wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:

Not to mention (and I work with a lot of teachers in my education consulting job) the pressure you get from people when you take a more active role.

A local school I’m near got in trouble for helping a 6 year old clean up because she kept coming into school in ratty clothes and smelling of feces. Some people got up in arms about the government doing something it did not need to do.

Actually, (and I’m a limited government guy) someone NEEDED to do something about that. I don’t fault that school one iota for attempting to help this girl out because her parents clearly couldn’t. [/quote]

No shit.

The famous good citizen laws combined with people wanting you to keep to yourself.

You’re damned if you do something but just as likely damned if you don’t do something. People are a strange breed.[/quote]

We’re Americans. Our “goals” as a nation have always conflicted and always will. We want freedom except when we don’t like the results of that freedom. Hence all the changes to government over time. The vast majority of those changes have been changes people WANTED to be made by the government. Even if I may disagree with some of them I realize the reason I can’t smoke in a restaurant where I live is because the citizens voted on that issue and decided that.

I even live near a place that doesn’t have liquor sales on Sunday. It’s basically the only place anywhere near this area like that and the area isn’t even “that small” (roughly 12,000 people). The smaller community a few miles away of just about 200 people has a place that you can buy liquor on Sundays and all the people from the 12,000 person town drive to the 200 person town.

Lol. Works out great for that owner.

[quote]NickViar wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
I do not know the facts but rather than take food out of Kids mouths I ratehr cut subsidies from tabacco, oil coal , solar, wind ,sugar ,Alcohol , the war on drugs , shit and all the other things subsidized

I am sure I would not cut all these but I bet I could make one hell of a dent in it[/quote]

There really must be a first time for everything-good post, but thank God the government found somewhere to spend all that money; can you imagine the evil that would have been done had that money not been taken from its owners?[/quote]

I think if we did away with the things we agree on we could allow the poor little bastards living on welfare to still get their food stamps even though Mom is a crack whore . It is not the poor little bastards fault and he is going to have a tough enough time in life

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
I think if we did away with the things we agree on we could allow the poor little bastards living on welfare to still get their food stamps even though Mom is a crack whore . It is not the poor little bastards fault and he is going to have a tough enough time in life
[/quote]

How about letting concerned citizens purchase the crack whore mother’s parenting rights? Perhaps her parenting rights could be purchased, and part of the purchase agreement could be that she get fixed(to prevent an attempt to become a baby factory).

[quote]NickViar wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
I think if we did away with the things we agree on we could allow the poor little bastards living on welfare to still get their food stamps even though Mom is a crack whore . It is not the poor little bastards fault and he is going to have a tough enough time in life
[/quote]

How about letting concerned citizens purchase the crack whore mother’s parenting rights? Perhaps her parenting rights could be purchased, and part of the purchase agreement could be that she get fixed(to prevent an attempt to become a baby factory).[/quote]

I could buy that , I could also buy in vitro adoption

But you do know that will not do away with the mothers that keep the child even though they should give them up. . This is in my opinion the best argument for legal Abortions . There are many fates worse than death

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
But you do know that will not do away with the mothers that keep the child even though they should give them up. . This is in my opinion the best argument for legal Abortions . There are many fates worse than death [/quote]

If a mother is willing to hold on to her child, even when she could profit from getting rid of him, what is the chance that she will abort the child for no gain? If a mother is willing to turn down money for the opportunity to raise her child, I would say there’s a pretty good chance that she will do a decent job.

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
But you do know that will not do away with the mothers that keep the child even though they should give them up. . This is in my opinion the best argument for legal Abortions . There are many fates worse than death [/quote]

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
But you do know that will not do away with the mothers that keep the child even though they should give them up. . This is in my opinion the best argument for legal Abortions . There are many fates worse than death [/quote]
[/quote]

I guess i am lucky I don’t thump that Bible :slight_smile:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
But you do know that will not do away with the mothers that keep the child even though they should give them up. . This is in my opinion the best argument for legal Abortions . There are many fates worse than death [/quote]
[/quote]

I guess i am lucky I don’t thump that Bible :slight_smile:
[/quote]

I don’t “thump that bible” either.

Doesn’t make your pitiful pro-eugenics rally cry and thing less than it is.

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
But you do know that will not do away with the mothers that keep the child even though they should give them up. . This is in my opinion the best argument for legal Abortions . There are many fates worse than death [/quote]
[/quote]

I guess i am lucky I don’t thump that Bible :slight_smile:
[/quote]

I don’t “thump that bible” either.

Doesn’t make your pitiful pro-eugenics rally cry and thing less than it is. [/quote]

this is simply an area we disagree on

I see it as removing living tissue that would some day turn into a person .

You see it as already a person

My motivation would not be to make society better , my motivation would be to mitigate some difficulty for some people .

It is interesting that Freakanomics claims it does have the effect of making society better

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
But you do know that will not do away with the mothers that keep the child even though they should give them up. . This is in my opinion the best argument for legal Abortions . There are many fates worse than death [/quote]
[/quote]

I guess i am lucky I don’t thump that Bible :slight_smile:
[/quote]

I don’t “thump that bible” either.

Doesn’t make your pitiful pro-eugenics rally cry and thing less than it is. [/quote]

this is simply an area we disagree on

I see it as removing living tissue that would some day turn into a person .

You see it as already a person

My motivation would not be to make society better , my motivation would be to mitigate some difficulty for some people .

It is interesting that Freakanomics claims it does have the effect of making society better
[/quote]

ohhh, what and kind and sweet Elite you are. Not only have you determined who deserves to live and who deserves to not, but you have also judged by which those standards are actually better for a person, without ever even knowing them.

You should work for government, your arrogance and unfounded, irrational belief that you are in a position to judge whether someone is “better off dead” will fit in perfectly there.

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

I see it as removing living tissue that would some day turn into a person .

You see it as already a person

[/quote]

Yeah, and one of us is backed up by science and logic, the other smokes a lot of weed and lives in Arizona.

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
I think if we did away with the things we agree on we could allow the poor little bastards living on welfare to still get their food stamps even though Mom is a crack whore . It is not the poor little bastards fault and he is going to have a tough enough time in life
[/quote]

I don’t think anyone is disagreeing how much this kids life is setup in a negative manner. What I think most people disagree on is what should be the solutions to those problems and making sure that our solutions to problems are not creating even more future problems.

I can fully admit that I don’t know what the correct answer is and I also know how much hypocrisy both sides have. Most liberals won’t admit that a growing welfare state disincentives work for some people (not all), and most conservatives won’t admit that they don’t have solid solutions to put into place right now in the absence of some of those things that wouldn’t also lead to bad unintended consequences. (i.e. the irony behind Ben Carson talking in his book about how government saved his life then being against the government later on)

If either side could nut up and have a discussion like we have many times on here then maybe we could get some stuff figured out. The two party system doesn’t really like that so we get:

Democrats want everyone on welfare to not work ever and free load and Republicans want every kid and old person who is not rich to die. All you really need to do is villianize your opponent better before election day and you get to be in power. Good luck to the participants of 2016’s “I’m not as scary as he/she is so vote for me!”

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
But you do know that will not do away with the mothers that keep the child even though they should give them up. . This is in my opinion the best argument for legal Abortions . There are many fates worse than death [/quote]
[/quote]

I guess i am lucky I don’t thump that Bible :slight_smile:
[/quote]

I don’t “thump that bible” either.

Doesn’t make your pitiful pro-eugenics rally cry and thing less than it is. [/quote]

this is simply an area we disagree on

I see it as removing living tissue that would some day turn into a person .

You see it as already a person

My motivation would not be to make society better , my motivation would be to mitigate some difficulty for some people .

It is interesting that Freakanomics claims it does have the effect of making society better
[/quote]

ohhh, what and kind and sweet Elite you are. Not only have you determined who deserves to live and who deserves to not, but you have also judged by which those standards are actually better for a person, without ever even knowing them.

You should work for government, your arrogance and unfounded, irrational belief that you are in a position to judge whether someone is “better off dead” will fit in perfectly there. [/quote]

I do not nor have I ever decided if some one lives or dies

I kind of do work for the Gov . just kind of :slight_smile:

[quote]H factor wrote:

Most liberals won’t admit that a growing welfare state disincentives work for some people (not all), and most conservatives won’t admit that they don’t have solid solutions to put into place right now in the absence of some of those things that wouldn’t also lead to bad unintended consequences.

If either side could nut up and have a discussion like we have many times on here then maybe we could get some stuff figured out. The two party system doesn’t really like that so we get:

[/quote]

I think to have a minimum wage that is lower than what welfare pays is just what you say the Dems are doing and I lay this ridiculously low minimum wage as you say Growing a Welfare state

I totally agree that this two party system is fucking the dog . We need to find a way to get rid of the 2 party system

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
I think to have a minimum wage that is lower than what welfare pays is just what you say the Dems are doing and I lay this ridiculously low minimum wage as you say Growing a Welfare state

I totally agree that this two party system is fucking the dog . We need to find a way to get rid of the 2 party system
[/quote]

Do you believe one, by being born, is entitled to that which is owned by another? Both a government-mandated minimum wage and government welfare are wrong. Neither should exist.

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:

Most liberals won’t admit that a growing welfare state disincentives work for some people (not all), and most conservatives won’t admit that they don’t have solid solutions to put into place right now in the absence of some of those things that wouldn’t also lead to bad unintended consequences.

If either side could nut up and have a discussion like we have many times on here then maybe we could get some stuff figured out. The two party system doesn’t really like that so we get:

[/quote]

I think to have a minimum wage that is lower than what welfare pays is just what you say the Dems are doing and I lay this ridiculously low minimum wage as you say Growing a Welfare state

I totally agree that this two party system is fucking the dog . We need to find a way to get rid of the 2 party system
[/quote]

Are you sure this is true on the whole?

I haven’t read this article (just googled quickly).

http://scientopia.org/blogs/authority/2013/08/21/no-cato-welfare-doesnt-pay-more-than-minimum-wage/

This one says 35 states pay better (also haven’t read it in full):

First link I believe attacks the Cato study, but I will be honest these are both from lighting quick google searches and I have to take the fiance out in a little bit so I lack time.

I think saying welfare pays better than minimum wage is either false or not true in all cases. Welfare is going to be significantly different based on numerous factors so the idea that welfare always pays better than a minimum wage job is probably erroneous not to mention some of the benefits that MAY still come with a minimum wage job aside from the pay.

Welfare pays better than minimum wage is a blanket statement that is incorrect at face value. Though it may pay much better in SOME situations. Never been on welfare and haven’t had a min wage job in many years so I haven’t researched either in full yet.