Pump-Tech New Study Question...

Nutrition
1

Recently one of my friends had mentioned to me a new study has come out on no2 products…

Specifically Pump-Tech.

The article appeared in Muscle and fitness in October I believe.

University- Baylor and Berkley did a study on the effects of pump-tech against placebo. They found the placebo group increased bench by 5 pounds and pump-tech group a minimum of 19 pounds on bench in eight weeks.

*This data was presented at the national sports nutrition convention in Las Vegas, Nevada.

Could someone comment on the study that was at the convention and/or has some knowledge about this “new” supplement?

Nutrition facts:

Serving size 5 Caplets
servings per container 40

AAKG-Tech 3.1G

l-arginine hydrochloride
l-arginine alpha ketoglutarate

Vaso-Tech 1.75G

tri-creatine malate
l-citruline
l-aspartic acid
panax ginseng extract (25% ginsenosides) (root)

French maritime pine extract (bark)**

Pycnogenol is a registered trademark of horphag research LTd.

I am curious if the new research is showing benefit to using new no2 products.

Thanks T-Mag,

-Get Lifted

2

[quote]Get Lifted wrote:
Recently one of my friends had mentioned to me a new study has come out on no2 products…

Specifically Pump-Tech.

The article appeared in Muscle and fitness in October I believe.

University- Baylor and Berkley did a study on the effects of pump-tech against placebo. They found the placebo group increased bench by 5 pounds and pump-tech group a minimum of 19 pounds on bench in eight weeks.

*This data was presented at the national sports nutrition convention in Las Vegas, Nevada.

Could someone comment on the study that was at the convention and/or has some knowledge about this “new” supplement?

Nutrition facts:

Serving size 5 Caplets
servings per container 40

AAKG-Tech 3.1G

l-arginine hydrochloride
l-arginine alpha ketoglutarate

Vaso-Tech 1.75G

tri-creatine malate
l-citruline
l-aspartic acid
panax ginseng extract (25% ginsenosides) (root)

French maritime pine extract (bark)**

Pycnogenol is a registered trademark of horphag research LTd.

I am curious if the new research is showing benefit to using new no2 products.

Thanks T-Mag,

-Get Lifted
[/quote]

One would have to see the study design and more specific data than what’s mentioned to determine whether it’s of value. In any event, you’ll notice there are 7 or so compounds in the product. The problem I have is that even if the product had shown a statistically significant increase in strength over placebo, the product contains other compounds (namely the tri-creatine malate) which could potentially account for the alterations in strength. So, in that case, the data does nothing to demonstrate the efficacy of the other compounds which (e.g., l-arginine alpha ketoglutarate) are classically touted as having the ability to increase NO production.

In other words, this is to me, akin to taking ear wax and then adding in an androgen and then concluding that the EW had a positive effect upon strength. So, was the combination of androgen and EW beneficial? Sure. Have androgens shown benefit when used alone? Yes. Has the EW? Well, it’s never been looked at so the person interpreting is left confused and may even assume the EW had the beneficial effect.

3

Hey Cy, Don’t mock, I gained 10 pounds of solid muscle after using ear wax for just a 2 week cycle!!! Amazing!!!

4

Damn, Cy, and hear I was keeping my ears clean when I was sitting on GOLD! You coulda said something!

5

Thanks Cy Willson on helping me research the studies further… beyond the small snip of the study in the magazine. Even results and the meaning of the study can be skewed to what the results REALLY indicate or don’t indicate. :slight_smile:

I did some searching because I was not familiar with tri-creatine malate.

"Tri-Creatine Malate comprises of molecular bonded Creatine and Malic acid. The bond is broken in stomach acid to release pure Creatine(not creatine monohydrate) and Malic acid. Both of which are then immediately absorbed through the intestine. The beauty of this stunning new Creatine salt is the fact that it contains Malic acid. Malic acid supports energy production that is essential for proper muscle performance, and allows the body to produce ATP more efficiently. Furthermore, Malic acid acts as a catalyst to the Krebs cycle where fats and glucose are converted into energy. This truly is the future of Creatine. "

-http://www.heroesmuscle.co.uk/item257.htm

Did a random search to find that.

According to that site tri-creatine malate may be the reason for the 19 pound increase in bench in eight weeks. That would mean the claimed l-arginine alpha ketoglutarate may/may not increase NO production. We don’t know if it was the androgen or the NO stimulator or both.

Would this be a more accurate assesment of the study?

I wonder how I could get my hands on the actual study to look at it?

Anyway,

Thank’s for feedback Cy Willson! :wink:

-Get Lifted

6

[quote]Get Lifted wrote:

One would have to see the study design and more specific data than what’s mentioned to determine whether it’s of value. In any event, you’ll notice there are 7 or so compounds in the product. The problem I have is that even if the product had shown a statistically significant increase in strength over placebo, the product contains other compounds (namely the tri-creatine malate) which could potentially account for the alterations in strength. So, in that case, the data does nothing to demonstrate the efficacy of the other compounds which (e.g., l-arginine alpha ketoglutarate) are classically touted as having the ability to increase NO production.

In other words, this is to me, akin to taking ear wax and then adding in an androgen and then concluding that the EW had a positive effect upon strength. So, was the combination of androgen and EW beneficial? Sure. Have androgens shown benefit when used alone? Yes. Has the EW? Well, it’s never been looked at so the person interpreting is left confused and may even assume the EW had the beneficial effect.

Thanks Cy Willson on helping me research the studies further… beyond the small snip of the study in the magazine. Even results and the meaning of the study can be skewed to what the results REALLY indicate or don’t indicate. :slight_smile:

I did some searching because I was not familiar with tri-creatine malate.

"Tri-Creatine Malate comprises of molecular bonded Creatine and Malic acid. The bond is broken in stomach acid to release pure Creatine(not creatine monohydrate) and Malic acid. Both of which are then immediately absorbed through the intestine. The beauty of this stunning new Creatine salt is the fact that it contains Malic acid. Malic acid supports energy production that is essential for proper muscle performance, and allows the body to produce ATP more efficiently. Furthermore, Malic acid acts as a catalyst to the Krebs cycle where fats and glucose are converted into energy. This truly is the future of Creatine. "

-http://www.heroesmuscle.co.uk/item257.htm

Did a random search to find that.

According to that site tri-creatine malate may be the reason for the 19 pound increase in bench in eight weeks. That would mean the claimed l-arginine alpha ketoglutarate may/may not increase NO production. We don’t know if it was the androgen or the NO stimulator or both.

Would this be a more accurate assesment of the study?

I wonder how I could get my hands on the actual study to look at it?

Anyway,

Thank’s for feedback Cy Willson! :wink:

-Get Lifted

[/quote]

Well, the problem of the study design is that whether or not the product even has an effect upon NO production wasn’t addressed. Rather, an effect upon strength was evaluated. So, whether or not there was an increase in NO wasn’t even addressed. Also, tri-creatine malate is not an androgen. Other than that, you have the right idea. That being we don’t know if it was the tri-creatine malate, or one of the other 6-7 compounds (I won’t refer to them as NO stimulators).

As for the study, you may try contacting the sponsor or whichever company sells the product for a copy of an abstract at the very least, and perhaps the entire presentation if you’re lucky enough. It depends on a few things though.

7

[quote]Cy Willson wrote:

Well, the problem of the study design is that whether or not the product even has an effect upon NO production wasn’t addressed. Rather, an effect upon strength was evaluated. So, whether or not there was an increase in NO wasn’t even addressed. Also, tri-creatine malate is not an androgen. Other than that, you have the right idea. That being we don’t know if it was the tri-creatine malate, or one of the other 6-7 compounds (I won’t refer to them as NO stimulators).

As for the study, you may try contacting the sponsor or whichever company sells the product for a copy of an abstract at the very least, and perhaps the entire presentation if you’re lucky enough. It depends on a few things though.
[/quote]

*A quick correction on my part. I called my friend on this wonderful friday night and discussed some of these things we talked about. What he #actually said about the study in muscle and fitness was the NEW study, presented at the Las Vegas Convention, did this research with l-arginine only. The Claimed NO production stimulus. 4 Grams was used and it was the no2 product. Berkley and Baylor housed the study. The reason I mentioned pump-tech was at the end of the article it mentioned there are newer NO products out that may yield even better results- that is pump-tech. Something happened with the communication on the phone to get from what I originally posted to what he REALLY said. (If he’s changing his story to try and convince me, then I will just have to pummel him when I see him again and tell him to tell the truth to himself! LOL)

so on!

To recap: The study from Berkley and Baylor university on no2, specifically 4 grams of l-arginine produced a minimum of a 19 pound increase in bench whereas placebo increased bench by 5 pounds in eight weeks. This was presented at this past Las vegas nutrition convention.

Were you at the convention Cy Willson? Just curious if you ran across this while you were there…

Anyway, my friend is all “pumped” up about it and seems to be rationalizing why it works at this point. Which is, “The reason” I am coming to you for some objective answers or information about the study.

Any more information on this would be appreciated.

I think I am at the point where I will call them up and try to get the abstract and/or the whole enchilada to at least put that study to rest. Whether it’s what my friend wants to hear or not! At least it will shut him up.:slight_smile: Maybe I could even throw it in a post or something…

Anyway Thanks Cy Willson!

-Get Lifted

8

[quote]Get Lifted wrote:
Cy Willson wrote:

Well, the problem of the study design is that whether or not the product even has an effect upon NO production wasn’t addressed. Rather, an effect upon strength was evaluated. So, whether or not there was an increase in NO wasn’t even addressed. Also, tri-creatine malate is not an androgen. Other than that, you have the right idea. That being we don’t know if it was the tri-creatine malate, or one of the other 6-7 compounds (I won’t refer to them as NO stimulators).

As for the study, you may try contacting the sponsor or whichever company sells the product for a copy of an abstract at the very least, and perhaps the entire presentation if you’re lucky enough. It depends on a few things though.

*A quick correction on my part. I called my friend on this wonderful friday night and discussed some of these things we talked about. What he #actually said about the study in muscle and fitness was the NEW study, presented at the Las Vegas Convention, did this research with l-arginine only. The Claimed NO production stimulus. 4 Grams was used and it was the no2 product. Berkley and Baylor housed the study. The reason I mentioned pump-tech was at the end of the article it mentioned there are newer NO products out that may yield even better results- that is pump-tech. Something happened with the communication on the phone to get from what I originally posted to what he REALLY said. (If he’s changing his story to try and convince me, then I will just have to pummel him when I see him again and tell him to tell the truth to himself! LOL)

so on!

To recap: The study from Berkley and Baylor university on no2, specifically 4 grams of l-arginine produced a minimum of a 19 pound increase in bench whereas placebo increased bench by 5 pounds in eight weeks. This was presented at this past Las vegas nutrition convention.

Were you at the convention Cy Willson? Just curious if you ran across this while you were there…

Anyway, my friend is all “pumped” up about it and seems to be rationalizing why it works at this point. Which is, “The reason” I am coming to you for some objective answers or information about the study.

Any more information on this would be appreciated.

I think I am at the point where I will call them up and try to get the abstract and/or the whole enchilada to at least put that study to rest. Whether it’s what my friend wants to hear or not! At least it will shut him up.:slight_smile: Maybe I could even throw it in a post or something…

Anyway Thanks Cy Willson!

-Get Lifted[/quote]

No, I was not at the convention. I don’t really have the time to travel.

In any event, I’d be really interested to see the data where 4 grams of l-arginine, or even a derivative in case your friend is confused, had such a benefit. I find it hard to believe but I’d really be interested to see the data and study design before commenting.

I think and have always thought such products were worthless. A good friend of mine wrote an article on such products.

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=459691

9

A friend of mine worked on a NO2 study at Baylor under Richard Kreider. There were no changes in LBM, with the only significant difference in 1RM, which my friend said was largely doe to one outlier who gained a ton of strength. He basically said that NO2 was useless…not sure if this is the same study or not (I know that it was presented in Las Vegas, so it might be).

10

I clarified this further. My boyfriend’s ex-roommate was one of the the leaders of this study. It was well-designed, double-blind, and placebo-controlled. He said that there were some slight trends in LBM, but that the increase in strength was the only significant difference. Like I said earlier, there was one person who gained a ton of strength, otherwise this also would have been an insignificant result. Also, they distributed a survey regarding improvements in sexual performance (all subjects were male), and no difference was found there either.

11

Wow ! Cy qualified for the nice guy award here.

Product analysis and feedback on a product (NO2) that doesn’t even work !

Just remember these are the same guys who made Myfoxybutt!

12

[quote]Cy Willson wrote:

No, I was not at the convention. I don’t really have the time to travel.

In any event, I’d be really interested to see the data where 4 grams of l-arginine, or even a derivative in case your friend is confused, had such a benefit. I find it hard to believe but I’d really be interested to see the data and study design before commenting.

I think and have always thought such products were worthless. A good friend of mine wrote an article on such products.

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=459691[/quote]

No worries… If that new research was that significant I probably would have heard more about it. In addition, my strength is far greater than that of my friend. I am happy with Surge, Grow!, Power Drive, and creatine. My friend lacks some discipline and is always looking for some pill to make it easier.

Called him last night and he said, " why don’t you just buy it and try it." I asked him how much pump-tech was. It was like 50 dollars. I said, " Since you got it already I’ll check back in with you in a month to see if you have made any significant progress." He can always lie to me on the phone about his strength but when I go in and lift with him and say let’s see what you got. His story soon changes when he pushes up only 225 on bench.

In other words, since he is so confident that NO works, he can be the guinea pig. I’ll stick with a quality protein, w/post workout supplement, workout stimulant, and creatine.

The only reason I mentioned the study is because I am always looking for an edge. He hyped the study up so much I had to at least consider taking a look at it.

Thank’s to Cy Willson and T-Nation I can make sense of some of these supplements and studies.

-Get Lifted