PSU Death Watch

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]gregron wrote:
The NCAA did get involved with a shooting case once… Because it was a player shooting another player!

The NCAA Comittee on infractions job is to keep a level competitive playing field. If it doesn’t result in an unfair advantage (like giving special benifits to a player to come to your school would) then its not really the NCAA’s doing.

“but if a player shoots someone I’d think the NCAA would have to have some penalties too.”

^^Like what? Ban the team from a bowl game? LOL… What about all the players at Florida who were arrested on drug charges, underfed drinking and DUI’s while Urban Meyer was the coach? What’d te NCAA do about that?[/quote]

You, like penstate, are overvaluing athletics. You need to make sure no other program ever does anything like this ever again. How do you suggest they do that?[/quote]

You can’t at any school really.

I’m sure the people involved knew long ago they acted unethically. It boils down to the character of the personnel for the most part.

^^good point Raj. I was going to say that it’s impossible to deter this from happening again. If there was a way to make sure things like rape, molestation and murder never happened again we woulda found it by now.

People are going to do what they’re going to do.

[quote]gregron wrote:
LOL@ some of your guys thinking.

You’re acting as if every person employed by Penn State or every person that is part of the Penn State football program knew about this. News flash: They didn’t.

A handful of people knew and covered it up. Do you guys not understand this? It wasn’t ALL of Penn State or the ENTIRE football program… It was a few terrible men.

Penn State == JoePa & the AD.[/quote]

In addition to the four stooges: Father Joe, Curly, Schultz and Spainer, it was the out-of-control, way-too-powerful FOOTBALL CULTURE that allowed this to happen.

CULTURE = the behaviors and beliefs characteristic of a particular social, ethnic, or age group: the youth culture; the drug culture; the deeply engrained PSU football culture

The CULTURE concluded that the Football-machine was more important than preventing child sex abuse. THAT’S A CANCER THAT NEEDS TO BE CUT OUT! Then it will be in remission, hopefully, and heal.

PSU football will forever be fucked-up if it doesn’t get a time-out, a long nap, so it get its head on straight, re-group and re-build.

Again, PSU should institute their own dealth penalty. They would save some face and earn some respect. The Paterno’s should request that PSU allow them to remove the statue and transfer it to some museum or something. Really…take the initiative to do the right thing so it doesn’t have to be forced from the outside.

[quote]gregron wrote:
^^good point Raj. I was going to say that it’s impossible to deter this from happening again. If there was a way to make sure things like rape, molestation and murder never happened again we woulda found it by now.

People are going to do what they’re going to do.[/quote]

You’re missing the point. It was the cover-up that stirred most of the outrage.
Colleges, corporations, neighborhoods have to report child sex abuse when they are aware of it.
Father Joe et.al. let it continue…so Sandusky can rack up more more victims…for 14 years!

^^I’m not missing any point.

Like I’ve said quite a few times already, the PEOPLE directly involve in the coverup should be brought up on criminal and civil charges.

If you honestly think that Penn state football will be forever F’ed up unless they get a long nap then you don’t know much about college football or American culture.TBH, no one is going to care about this story in 5 years, much less 10. America will move past this story soon and move onto the next scandal. It’s sad but true.

I was responding to your comment about not being able to prevent this kind of thing in the future. I agree that evil is gonna happen in random places, but I would hope that if the PSU scandal has taught us anything…they have taught that a different response is mandatory…pedophilia has to be nipped in the bud…not covered up…because the damage continues. It’s evil to allow it to continue and hopefully that WILL change going forward.

What I don’t get, is that Father Pa had to have been aware of the Catholic Church problems with this very same issue. Yet he duplicated what they did by covering it up.

[quote]gregron wrote:
Like I’ve said quite a few times already, the PEOPLE directly involve in the coverup should be brought up on criminal and civil charges.
[/quote]

I agree with you 100%; however, the larger issue remains that there was an environment that allowed them to do what they did.

For instance, if the situation had been reversed and Paterno had walked in on a janitor raping a 10 year old, do you think he would have felt pressured to keep quiet? I highly doubt it.

The discussion is not about punishing the innocent for the faults of their leaders, but rather about breaking the culture where men not only were able to hide this kind of crime, but felt that it was in their best interest to do so.

Will something like this happen again? Of course - but that’s no reason not to fix a toxic environment that has already been shown to exist.

The issue with “fixing the culture” is that you need to hire morally responsible people to run things. That’s the only way to change anything. NOTHING else will work.

The “culture” is dictated by the people who run the program. Get good people in there and the culture is good, have morally questionablr people in their and, well, you see what happens.

No punishment to the university will change things.

[quote]gregron wrote:
The issue with “fixing the culture” is that you need to hire morally responsible people to run things. That’s the only way to change anything. NOTHING else will work.

The “culture” is dictated by the people who run the program. Get good people in there and the culture is good, have morally questionablr people in their and, well, you see what happens.

No punishment to the university will change things.[/quote]

Yeah, but how do you prevent morally-repugnant, corruptible people from getting hired in the first place? Everyone thought JoePa was one of those guys and he turned out to be a complete piece of shit. I think the problem is that the culture attracts the sort of people who don’t belong in amateur sports and the culture also can be corrupting in and of itself. There is Big Time Money involved with high-level DI football. So much money that schools are willing to set aside temporary morality for permanent wealth.

The truth is that there are only about a dozen schools in Division I-A that have never been sanctioned by the NCAA. And only one of those schools, Stanford, has a good sports program across the board. In fact, Stanford routinely wins the award for best overall sports program in the NCAA, which they won this year.

So it’s possible to have a top-notch sports program without falling victim to the corrupting power of money. But Stanford is the rare school that gets so much money from tuition and donors that they don’t need to give the athletic department, and especially the football team, extra leeway in exchange for a more successful program and more money. Stanford is constantly resisting calls for a lessening of academic standards so that it can recruit more football players. But other schools can’t do this.

So the culture really stems from the massive amount of money that is involved and the best way to avoid corruption is to lessen the influence that money has had.

That being said, I don’t think shutting down the entire football program is the answer. The NCAA needs to enact more safeguards or whatever to punish coaches who demand extra latitude for those associated with the football program. They should also allow anyone on the Penn State football team to immediately transfer to any other school without having to wait a year before being eligible to play again on a scholarship. The school should also be barred from any recruiting at all for several years and have all of their scholarships taken away. Any players who currently are at Penn State can keep their scholarships for the remainder of their eligibility, but incoming players (who have not been recruited but come solely by their own accord) are not eligible for any athletic scholarships, only academic ones available to the general student population.

That would effectively decimate the program without actually shutting it down. There would be a mass exodus of players and very few, if any, quality players would go there in the future. Anyone who plays at Penn State in the future would have to REALLY want to play there since they’d be paying their own way to play on a team that would be mostly devoid of talent.

[quote]gregron wrote:
The issue with “fixing the culture” is that you need to hire morally responsible people to run things. That’s the only way to change anything. NOTHING else will work.

The “culture” is dictated by the people who run the program. Get good people in there and the culture is good, have morally questionablr people in their and, well, you see what happens.

No punishment to the university will change things.[/quote]

Again, I agree with you. The problem is that it’s impossible to determine who is genuinely “morally responsible.” The “punishment to the university” isn’t to redress past wrongs, but rather to put in place a framework so that if a similar situation occurred in the future, Paterno 2.0 would realize that there are serious ramifications for hiding criminal activity and protecting men like Sandusky 2.0 - ramifications that vastly outweigh any potential benefit from concealment.

The football program has done a lot of good for the university, the community, and a multitude of students, but I have a difficult time claiming that that good justifies maintaining the status quo. It’s unfortunate that when a mans’ interests and ideals clash, it’s often the interests that win - for instance, if you were a football coach for a major school facing a potential scandal.

If the people in power are genuinely moral individuals, punishments for negative behavior should pose no issue to them; however, since they so rarely are, it is necessary for an institution to foster an environment where even amoral individuals recognize that moral behavior is in their best interest.

Unfortunately, doing the right thing often requires sacrifices - and the programs and institutions that spent years happily benefiting from the profits generated by Paterno and Penn State will have to suffer because of the actions of the same.

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:
…anyone, student non-athlete and student athlete alike, has to decide if they want to support a program/university that supports raping children. Anyone who stays is a pedophile at this point…[/quote]

STB, I have nothing but respect for you and your contributions to this site.

That said… Are you fucking kidding me? How can you say that this school supports raping children? The five guys involved are either dead or in prison (or soon to be).

Everyone seems to forget that we raised ten million dollars for families dealing with pediatric cancer last year alone. We’re one of the top research institutions in the country, and we were recently ranked as one of the top 100 universities in the world. RAINN is another charitable thing we do (I’m not sure what it is, but my friend would kill me if I failed to mention it. It’s something to do with horses.) What does anyone stand to gain by demolishing all of this over the actions of five men?

I’m a junior at PSU, and I’m not going anywhere. Not because of football or Joe Paterno, but because of this:

I’m an elected leader of the Powerlifting Club team. I got here just in time to get to know the founding members of the club who passed it on to me and my friends. We built it from a few guys in Rec Hall to a ~100 member organization, perennially competitive at the national level, and we’re still growing. This team is my family, and Happy Valley is my home.

You can call me a pedophile if you want, but no scandal is going to make me abandon that.

[quote]gregron wrote:
The issue with “fixing the culture” is that you need to hire morally responsible people to run things. That’s the only way to change anything. NOTHING else will work.

The “culture” is dictated by the people who run the program. Get good people in there and the culture is good, have morally questionablr people in their and, well, you see what happens.

No punishment to the university will change things.[/quote]

I am not arguing necessarily for or against it, my contention is that based on how harsh the NCAA is with really stupid and petty violations, they are forced to deal harshly with PSU. If you are punishing schools for free meals, clothes, tattoos or what not, then something real, like child rape, is going to have to be dealt with severely.
To me it’s not an issue of what PSU deserves, or whether or not it’s what needs to happen for the good of the school. It’s what is the NCAA’s normal policy for dealing with violations and how are they going to stay consistent with doling out punishments on schools…
I really don’t see a choice. This is the worst violation it’s ever had to deal with so it’s got to get the worst punishment it’s ever given, I don’t really see a choice.

That being said, the NCAA is a bunch of corrupt pricks, so it won’t surprise me if they try to wiggle out of doing something about it. They may try, but other punished schools and plain old public opinion will crush them if they don’t act.
Now I am not totally against the NCAA going away, I think those guys are a bunch of pricks as a general rule.

[quote]Raging_Teddy wrote:

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:
…anyone, student non-athlete and student athlete alike, has to decide if they want to support a program/university that supports raping children. Anyone who stays is a pedophile at this point…[/quote]

STB, I have nothing but respect for you and your contributions to this site.

That said… Are you fucking kidding me? How can you say that this school supports raping children? The five guys involved are either dead or in prison (or soon to be).

Everyone seems to forget that we raised ten million dollars for families dealing with pediatric cancer last year alone. We’re one of the top research institutions in the country, and we were recently ranked as one of the top 100 universities in the world. RAINN is another charitable thing we do (I’m not sure what it is, but my friend would kill me if I failed to mention it. It’s something to do with horses.) What does anyone stand to gain by demolishing all of this over the actions of five men?

I’m a junior at PSU, and I’m not going anywhere. Not because of football or Joe Paterno, but because of this:

I’m an elected leader of the Powerlifting Club team. I got here just in time to get to know the founding members of the club who passed it on to me and my friends. We built it from a few guys in Rec Hall to a ~100 member organization, perennially competitive at the national level, and we’re still growing. This team is my family, and Happy Valley is my home.

You can call me a pedophile if you want, but no scandal is going to make me abandon that.
[/quote]

You are no pedophile. My only beef is with people who still unwaveringly support those involved… I don’t care and I am sure you don’t, what Paterno did as a coach. It turns out he is a bad guy who did bad things and that’s been proven. Paterno could have been a hero, but he turned out to be a coward, so screw him.
I have no beef with PSU as a school or the students, or the football players who are going to be fucked for this. You’re all victims of Sandusky’s actions and Paterno’s indifference.

[quote]Raging_Teddy wrote:

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:
…anyone, student non-athlete and student athlete alike, has to decide if they want to support a program/university that supports raping children. Anyone who stays is a pedophile at this point…[/quote]

STB, I have nothing but respect for you and your contributions to this site.

That said… Are you fucking kidding me? How can you say that this school supports raping children? The five guys involved are either dead or in prison (or soon to be).

Everyone seems to forget that we raised ten million dollars for families dealing with pediatric cancer last year alone. We’re one of the top research institutions in the country, and we were recently ranked as one of the top 100 universities in the world. RAINN is another charitable thing we do (I’m not sure what it is, but my friend would kill me if I failed to mention it. It’s something to do with horses.) What does anyone stand to gain by demolishing all of this over the actions of five men?

I’m a junior at PSU, and I’m not going anywhere. Not because of football or Joe Paterno, but because of this:

I’m an elected leader of the Powerlifting Club team. I got here just in time to get to know the founding members of the club who passed it on to me and my friends. We built it from a few guys in Rec Hall to a ~100 member organization, perennially competitive at the national level, and we’re still growing. This team is my family, and Happy Valley is my home.

You can call me a pedophile if you want, but no scandal is going to make me abandon that.
[/quote]

I gotta give you credit for sticking around and showing loyalty to your friends despite the scandal. That said, I think you will likely deal with LOTS of people making snarky comments either to your face or behind your back when they find out you just graduated from PSU.

^^no they won’t.

No one is going to care about this story in 5 years.

[quote]gregron wrote:
^^no they won’t.

No one is going to care about this story in 5 years.[/quote]

I agree…hence my statement “just graduated”…

Well the statue is down and tomorrow is supposed to be NCAA’s announcement regarding sanctions against PSU. I guess they need to act now prior to football season rather than waiting for Schutz and Curley’s trail outcomes. Indeed, we’ve probably have heard enough already.

Whatever the NCAA comes up with is sure to create a firestorm.
Some say a one-year ‘death penalty’ to way too light (true).
Others comment that the sanctions should not overly punish innocent by-standers (players, vendors, staff) etc. (also true, but difficult to avoid)

We will know the details soon enough.

We know it’s not the death penalty.

…which is great news for the Powerlifting team. They hire us to park cars for home games, and that money pays for alot of our travel. Without it, a large portion of our team, myself included, would not have been afford to travel to nationals in Texas in the spring.

[quote]Aggv wrote:
The football program is done one way or another. My question is, why would anyone want to go there anymore? If im in high school, not an athlete, that’d be the last place i would be looking into to going. [/quote]

Because, fuck football, Penn State is, and will be an excellent place to get your degree from.
I can’t speak for all majors, but for engineering, it is an excellent school with great faculty.

A lot of us here don’t give a fuck about Paterno, and are lot more concerned about education.

So, yeah, if someone wants to go to school for it’s football program, stay away. If someone wants to go and STUDY, the scandal makes no difference what so ever.

I have a question. Why hasn’t Spanier been charged with anything yet? Do you think he’s talking like McQuery…to avoid charges?