[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
There are many Internet pharmacies that conveniently hook one up with a prescription for a small fee (a few want outrageous fees, but just move on where that is the case.)
Restless leg syndrome is what I’d claim on the questionnaire form.
There are very likely also overseas Internet pharmacies that have this item and don’t bother with a prescription at all, but I haven’t checked.[/quote]
Thank you for the help.
Sure thing!
Hey Bill/or anyone else,
I was just wondering your thoughts on vitex agnus castus (it is in Alpha Male as I’m sure Bill knows) for purposes of reducing prolactin (while not on any AAS). It would likely not be appropriate for someone with a medical issue for purposes of reducing prolactin, but do you think it’s worth taking on its own to see if desire can be increased? Specifically, I’m training very hard right now (cardio about 1.5 hours daily, 1.5 hours lifting daily), and I know hormones can get all messed up in an unfavorable manner when you do this. I’m not sure if prolactin is at all affected, but I know Test is likely lower (due to training and reduced cals). Also do you have any other suggestions on diet/exercise/supplements if you could design a non-AAS/non-perscription super protocol? I’m trying my best to get adequate dietary fats and cholesterol. I’m considering something like Alpha Male. I’m not really that concerned with desire, mostly just with bringing test up a little bit to either baseline or slightly above to improve performance and recovery a little bit. I have no reason to think my test is lower than it should be besides desire being down. Thanks.
BT
Couple things:
First, Tren Gyno is very real and caused by Prolactin. I would know. I wouldn’t even think about taking it again without having a dopamine agonist on hand.
Second have you guys heard of using B6 as a dopamine agonist? I heard it might be sufficient for most people unless you are prone to Prolactin problems.
Third, I would agree that Caber is no good in liquid, but Prami is. I bought both to do the pepsi challenge and noticeably felt the effects of the Prami, but I NOT from the liquid Caber. Plus Prami is cheap and you get more than enough in one bot from most research chem sites.
Anyone know how long you should wait to start Prami after beginning a Tren/deca cycle, and how long after? I would assume later and longer with Deca because of how long that stuff takes to get through the system and shorter all around with Tren?
Gyno from prolactin: Is that a guess or supported by lab work?
If you have gyno from elevated E2 levels, manage that.
Cabergoline in water gets bad press. Cabergoline in glycerol+PEG may be stable. Works for me.
Dopamine: Deprenyl/Selegiline is a selective MAO-B inhibitor that will increase dopamine levels. It is Rx. All that you need is 2.5mg EOD. It has a short half life but a long effect half life. There does not seem to be any of the MAO type side effects in doses up to 10mg/day. You will not have any problems with low doses.
When you stack these things, you can get dopamine overload.
No lab work, but I was on a pretty high dose of Tren and the Prami cleared that shit up quick. I was also having a little discharge…makes me laugh to say that word.
Caber in glycerol+ PEG? I think I might have that kind, gooey kind of sweet and the product of a large metal lizard? Maybe I will give it a better chance, but I really felt a “pep” in a couple areas in my life from the Prami.
Also, I would be wary of using these at all if you don’t have to. Like many have mentioned before Dopamine plays a large role in your body. Most notably for me, the dopamine receptors control contractility of the heart, heart rate and blood pressure (last one not too sure, but you get the picture). Taking steroids can enlarge your heart as it is, increasing how fast and how hard it beats is like training your heart to grow huge like the rest of your muscles.
[quote]BulletproofTiger wrote:
Hey Bill/or anyone else,
I was just wondering your thoughts on vitex agnus castus (it is in Alpha Male as I’m sure Bill knows) for purposes of reducing prolactin (while not on any AAS). It would likely not be appropriate for someone with a medical issue for purposes of reducing prolactin, but do you think it’s worth taking on its own to see if desire can be increased? Specifically, I’m training very hard right now (cardio about 1.5 hours daily, 1.5 hours lifting daily), and I know hormones can get all messed up in an unfavorable manner when you do this. I’m not sure if prolactin is at all affected, but I know Test is likely lower (due to training and reduced cals). Also do you have any other suggestions on diet/exercise/supplements if you could design a non-AAS/non-perscription super protocol? I’m trying my best to get adequate dietary fats and cholesterol. I’m considering something like Alpha Male. I’m not really that concerned with desire, mostly just with bringing test up a little bit to either baseline or slightly above to improve performance and recovery a little bit. I have no reason to think my test is lower than it should be besides desire being down. Thanks.
BT[/quote]
Vitex agnus castii extract I think does reduce prolactin. The active is rotundifurane, which certainly does have that activity.
The dosage used in Alpha Male is greater than what I had (8 or 9 years ago) found effective when combined with TRIBEX, where TRIBEX without it did nothing for me. The assay method was a little unusual: speed in recovering testicle size, but the difference was very clear. With Vitex extract included, speed was similar to when Clomid was used – I am NOT saying that in fact LH/FSH are boosted as much and I fully expect not – whereas with TRIBEX alone, as for myself I couldn’t tell the difference between that and not using anything, where there was loss after a steroid cycle.
Apologies for not seeing your question until now.
As for an overall protocol, as for myself when “off” I really just follow the Anaconda protocol or methods similar to what CT has posted in the past and which were used in the I,BB training at that time and so certainly also work; and use the protein powder, leucine, and Carbolin 19-19 which unfortunately is out of stock at the moment. For health reasons I also use various other things including Flameout and so forth.
[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
[quote]BulletproofTiger wrote:
Hey Bill/or anyone else,
I was just wondering your thoughts on vitex agnus castus (it is in Alpha Male as I’m sure Bill knows) for purposes of reducing prolactin (while not on any AAS). It would likely not be appropriate for someone with a medical issue for purposes of reducing prolactin, but do you think it’s worth taking on its own to see if desire can be increased? Specifically, I’m training very hard right now (cardio about 1.5 hours daily, 1.5 hours lifting daily), and I know hormones can get all messed up in an unfavorable manner when you do this. I’m not sure if prolactin is at all affected, but I know Test is likely lower (due to training and reduced cals). Also do you have any other suggestions on diet/exercise/supplements if you could design a non-AAS/non-perscription super protocol? I’m trying my best to get adequate dietary fats and cholesterol. I’m considering something like Alpha Male. I’m not really that concerned with desire, mostly just with bringing test up a little bit to either baseline or slightly above to improve performance and recovery a little bit. I have no reason to think my test is lower than it should be besides desire being down. Thanks.
BT[/quote]
Vitex agnus castii extract I think does reduce prolactin. The active is rotundifurane, which certainly does have that activity.
The dosage used in Alpha Male is greater than what I had (8 or 9 years ago) found effective when combined with TRIBEX, where TRIBEX without it did nothing for me. The assay method was a little unusual: speed in recovering testicle size, but the difference was very clear. With Vitex extract included, speed was similar to when Clomid was used – I am NOT saying that in fact LH/FSH are boosted as much and I fully expect not – whereas with TRIBEX alone, as for myself I couldn’t tell the difference between that and not using anything, where there was loss after a steroid cycle.
Apologies for not seeing your question until now.
As for an overall protocol, as for myself when “off” I really just follow the Anaconda protocol or methods similar to what CT has posted in the past and which were used in the I,BB training at that time and so certainly also work; and use the protein powder, leucine, and Carbolin 19-19 which unfortunately is out of stock at the moment. For health reasons I also use various other things including Flameout and so forth.[/quote]
…rotundifurane… thank you for that. I’ll look into it.
No need to apologize at all. I actually have no immediate problem (related to prolactin or estrogen) nor a testicular size problem (although this is a subjective matter, although my GF seems okay, thus there is no problem) as I did not do AAS, so there was no rush on the answer, but thanks for replying. I’m glad you saw the question and thanks again for the answer. The only issue I have is with regards to noticeably decreased desire (although not non-existent) as I’m training like a beast right now and cutting calories drastically which I think is affecting my T levels more than anything. I was just looking into something that might “free” up a little T and maybe convince the boys that there is no reason to go into a recession. Let’s hope this stimulus plan is a little more effective than others. I currently feel like when I competitively wrestled (read: I feel like shit and have low sex drive – the supplements I do take are helping with the shit feeling and drastically better than what I used to do for recovery, however with regards to sex drive I don’t know if there’s much I can do aside from wait it out and get back to training less frequently for a few weeks, before I jump back into a mass (bulk) phase after this damn cut I’m doing.), so I’m trying to change that. I thought perhaps prolactin inhibition might be one part of the puzzle, that’s at least worth a shot.
Thanks for your thoughts.
I just read up on the actives in vitex and I guess it has two diterpenoids (both rotundifurane as you mentioned as well as vitexilactone) [as well as iridoid glycosides (agnuside and aucubin), flavones and flavonoids (casticin, penduletin and chrysospenol-D), and a low yield of essential oil containing 1,8-cineole, limonene and pinene.] which have a dopaminergic action in the pituitary gland, which results in the inhibition of prolactin secretion (at least according to this: Information on the herb chaste tree. ) Makes sense. I have no idea if that source is completely accurate if at all though, and also, I don’t have a clue what that other stuff does!
??Also, it’s very strange that this herb is touted for its progesterone effects. Have any idea why that might be?
??Also should the timing of dosing should be considered (prolactin is highest around night time from what I’ve read)?
Thanks Bill. If you’ve got the answers then so-be-it, otherwise postulates if any are appreciated. I’ll send you a check for a penny for your thoughts if you wish. Ha. Thanks again.
If reduced desire is from training so intensively, perhaps destressing (if that’s a word) with theanine as well as the obvious adaptogens of Rhodiola and holy basil might help. If you can manage a restorative afternoon nap that could help too.
The progesterone claim seems to be completely baseless.
I really hadn’t thought about timing of Vitex. I just took it twice per day. As the drugs that reduce prolactin are all long acting, it can’t be learned from them whether timing makes a difference, it would seem.
You’re already taking care of electrolytes (you mentioned in another thread) but as you are dieting, it’s worth pointing out that it is very easy in that condition to be low on phosphorus.
It’s hard to total P intake because many nutrition labels do not include it. Phosphorus content is variable for at least whey protein and I suppose probably casein as well according to processing method. Roughly speaking I’d say that if your protein powder consumption is high despite dieting, then P is taken care of, but if it is fairly low, say only 2 servings a day, then total P might be low.
I don’t at the moment have typical values for P content of protein powders, and it may be that the variability is so great that there is no such thing as a typical value for practical purposes. My above statements related to amount of protein powder were based on values for Metabolic Drive at a previous time when P content had been determined, which is not presently the case.
Phosphorus can be supplemented with dipotassium phosphate, among other choices.
For reference, a liter of milk contains about 1000 mg of phosphorus, so that is not a dangerous daily supplementary amount. But if intake of milk protein from protein powder is high, or milok itself is being consumed in substantial amount, adding yet more would be pointless I think.
[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Bro-prolactin is a non-measured substance.[/quote]
Priceless!
B6…?
Or is that just a myth…?
[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
If reduced desire is from training so intensively, perhaps destressing (if that’s a word) with theanine as well as the obvious adaptogens of Rhodiola and holy basil might help. If you can manage a restorative afternoon nap that could help too.
The progesterone claim seems to be completely baseless.
I really hadn’t thought about timing of Vitex. I just took it twice per day. As the drugs that reduce prolactin are all long acting, it can’t be learned from them whether timing makes a difference, it would seem.
You’re already taking care of electrolytes (you mentioned in another thread) but as you are dieting, it’s worth pointing out that it is very easy in that condition to be low on phosphorus.
It’s hard to total P intake because many nutrition labels do not include it. Phosphorus content is variable for at least whey protein and I suppose probably casein as well according to processing method. Roughly speaking I’d say that if your protein powder consumption is high despite dieting, then P is taken care of, but if it is fairly low, say only 2 servings a day, then total P might be low.
I don’t at the moment have typical values for P content of protein powders, and it may be that the variability is so great that there is no such thing as a typical value for practical purposes. My above statements related to amount of protein powder were based on values for Metabolic Drive at a previous time when P content had been determined, which is not presently the case.
Phosphorus can be supplemented with dipotassium phosphate, among other choices.
For reference, a liter of milk contains about 1000 mg of phosphorus, so that is not a dangerous daily supplementary amount. But if intake of milk protein from protein powder is high, or milok itself is being consumed in substantial amount, adding yet more would be pointless I think.[/quote]
Thanks for the tips Bill. Just to let you know, the severity of the problem is not all that great. Just noticeable, and when combined with the amount of time I’ve spent working and at the gym, it is made worse. I’ll look into how much phosphorus I’m getting and if supplementation will be needed since I am on such a low calorie diet. I don’t think it would be the case however that I would need any since I know it’s in protein rich foods, and I still tend to eat a few hundred grams of protein per day from chicken, almonds and eggs (including the yolk where the P is), unless for some reason sweating has something to do with phosphorus excretion. True the prolactin claim is probably not the issue, but I guess it can’t hurt to try (the vitex in combination with tribulus and longjack). For the training stress, I am taking rhodiola at the moment as well as a few other adaptogens (ashwagandha and american, siberian, and korean ginseng). Also I take Z12 at night, but perhaps I should pop one cap after training as well to get the theanine boost there. It could also be a case of interactions of factors including my training, diet (although i try to get enough fats, although sat fat may be a bit low now that I think about it as I eat two yolks a day max, and a handful of almonds), and supplements I am taking (a lack of something may not be an issue).
[quote]BulletproofTiger wrote:
I was just looking into something that might “free” up a little T and maybe convince the boys that there is no reason to go into a recession. [/quote]
Eurycoma Longifolia ( aka Tongkat Ali ).
I did some research on this many moons ago and it was suggested a minimum of 400mg for endurance athletes, which was my purpose at the time as I was training for competitive swimming, had just started Body Building lifting very heavy and did not want to give it up.
Aside from the athletic support, AAKG plus 400mg Tonkat Ali a day sent my girls into overheat and into overdrive.
The more oxygen a fire gets the more violently is burns.
( Albuterol will increase oxygenation to the heat also.)
Best of luck,
Alpha F
does anyone know where I can look up norm ranges for PROLACTIN ? I just seen my results…it was 7 think dr said ref was (2-17)