ProHormones-All You Need to Know

Pharma
521

[quote]Jamesb170 wrote:
iva always used clomid for my pct, but i have been reading alot about nolva. is one better than the other?
my cycle is 8 weeks of bold with h drol for the last 4 weeks. dosage are 600 mg of bold all the way through with 50 mg of h drol[/quote]

No clear answer. There are positives and negatives to both & if you do well with clomid you should probably stick to it. Wrt side effects, clomid seems safer. Nolva is hepatoxic, and it appears capable of causing DNA damage as well. Not a strong concern to a breast cancer patient already suffering, but it is to an otherwise healthy bodybuilder.

That said, of those two I prefer nolva for recovery, and my blood tests have looked good (not that I always get them done) but I’ve now started using torem for PCT. Very similar to nolva & reports suggest it’s safer and does an even better job restoring cholesterol levels.

522

[quote]whotookmyname wrote:
Jamesb170 wrote:
iva always used clomid for my pct, but i have been reading alot about nolva. is one better than the other?

my cycle is 8 weeks of bold with h drol for the last 4 weeks. dosage are 600 mg of bold all the way through with 50 mg of h drol

No clear answer. There are positives and negatives to both & if you do well with clomid you should probably stick to it. Wrt side effects, clomid seems safer. Nolva is hepatoxic, and it appears capable of causing DNA damage as well. Not a strong concern to a breast cancer patient already suffering, but it is to an otherwise healthy bodybuilder.

That said, of those two I prefer nolva for recovery, and my blood tests have looked good (not that I always get them done) but I’ve now started using torem for PCT. Very similar to nolva & reports suggest it’s safer and does an even better job restoring cholesterol levels.

[/quote]

yea clomid has always worked well for me. This will be my first ph stack, ive done 4 solo cycles. My last was a Xtreme Tren solo and after the clomid for pct test levels were still not considerably low, took some more time till they were back to normal.

im not to worried about estrogen conversion it should be a pretty mild cycle. Just want to make sure clomid will be the best bet to have my boys back up.

523

so im gettin kinda worried that my PCT hasnt shown up, i still have like a week left of my cycle so im not overly worried since itll most likely show up but incase it doesnt i was wondering if i could just get more Havoc and taper off it like a 30/20/20/10/10 or something?

524

Hey 781,

I like the current avatar. Both of those “nurses” need to hand feed me those burgers.

BULK CITY BAY-BE!

Peace,

525

[quote]LiveFromThe781 wrote:
so im gettin kinda worried that my PCT hasnt shown up, i still have like a week left of my cycle so im not overly worried since itll most likely show up but incase it doesnt i was wondering if i could just get more Havoc and taper off it like a 30/20/20/10/10 or something?[/quote]

Probably not the best idea at all. If it were an effective method no one would ever use a hepatoxic SERM like tamoxifen. If your SERM doesn’t show up place an order for next day delivery OR get more havoc stay on for 7-10 days longer and place another order for a SERM. Didn’t your order come with a tracking number?

526

781, you’re always good for some drama lol. Like Bonez says, order more SERM. Fortunately more than one company supplies the research industry.

527

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
LiveFromThe781 wrote:
so im gettin kinda worried that my PCT hasnt shown up, i still have like a week left of my cycle so im not overly worried since itll most likely show up but incase it doesnt i was wondering if i could just get more Havoc and taper off it like a 30/20/20/10/10 or something?

Probably not the best idea at all. If it were an effective method no one would ever use a hepatoxic SERM like tamoxifen. If your SERM doesn’t show up place an order for next day delivery OR get more havoc stay on for 7-10 days longer and place another order for a SERM. Didn’t your order come with a tracking number? [/quote]

it said you cant do tracking with international mail which is what i had to register it under. its from a legit site that someone reccomended me here so i think im just being paranoid.

528

[quote]LiveFromThe781 wrote:
so im gettin kinda worried that my PCT hasnt shown up, i still have like a week left of my cycle so im not overly worried since itll most likely show up but incase it doesnt i was wondering if i could just get more Havoc and taper off it like a 30/20/20/10/10 or something?[/quote]

plenty of sources that offer next day shipping, just place another order, pay the extra charge for speedy delivery and you might even have it by tomorro or the next day depending on how fast they process your order. i live in canada and when i ordered express i got my pct within a week, and thats pretty good considering it gets hung up on customs and such.

529

Thanks for starting this thread. I’m not sure if this is the best place to ask but I have 2 bottles of Biotests’ 4ad-ec and I’m wondering if pct is needed for that? I read somewhere on the T-Nation site that it was one of the safer ph and wouldnt be a problem to use even long term.

I did two 2-week cycles of MAG-10, finishing up about 3 weeks ago. I havent noticed any problems.

Also, I’m 41 and have recently found out about HRT. I’m going to have that checked sometime this year as I’m noticing that I have the various symptoms that I was attibuting to lack of sleep, but getting enough time to sleep doesn’t seem to change things much. I’m guessing if I have low hormone levels it would reduce the effectiveness of any ph that I could take.

530

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
LiveFromThe781 wrote:
so im gettin kinda worried that my PCT hasnt shown up, i still have like a week left of my cycle so im not overly worried since itll most likely show up but incase it doesnt i was wondering if i could just get more Havoc and taper off it like a 30/20/20/10/10 or something?

Probably not the best idea at all. If it were an effective method no one would ever use a hepatoxic SERM like tamoxifen. If your SERM doesn’t show up place an order for next day delivery OR get more havoc stay on for 7-10 days longer and place another order for a SERM. Didn’t your order come with a tracking number? [/quote]

idk a lot about steroids, hell i dont really know shit.

but if the reason for taking a SERM w/ Havoc is because havoc is anti-estrogenic itself and theres a chance for an estrogen rebound after dropping it then wouldnt lowering it do the same thing anyway since as we already know its anti-estrogenic which is the only reason it needs a PCT because it doesnt cause shutdown…well it hasnt in me yet and ive been on for 2 weeks.

531

[quote]LiveFromThe781 wrote:
BONEZ217 wrote:
LiveFromThe781 wrote:
so im gettin kinda worried that my PCT hasnt shown up, i still have like a week left of my cycle so im not overly worried since itll most likely show up but incase it doesnt i was wondering if i could just get more Havoc and taper off it like a 30/20/20/10/10 or something?

Probably not the best idea at all. If it were an effective method no one would ever use a hepatoxic SERM like tamoxifen. If your SERM doesn’t show up place an order for next day delivery OR get more havoc stay on for 7-10 days longer and place another order for a SERM. Didn’t your order come with a tracking number?

idk a lot about steroids, hell i dont really know shit.

but if the reason for taking a SERM w/ Havoc is because havoc is anti-estrogenic itself and theres a chance for an estrogen rebound after dropping it then wouldnt lowering it do the same thing anyway since as we already know its anti-estrogenic which is the only reason it needs a PCT because it doesnt cause shutdown…well it hasnt in me yet and ive been on for 2 weeks.[/quote]

Come on man. Do you think about what you type before posting it?

Why do you you think Havoc doesn’t cause shutdown?

How do you know that you are not shutdown?

You said yourself that you don’t know much about AAS, so how can you come to those conclusions.

And no, using a SERM is not just to prevent estrogen rebound. Even when using an aromatising compound estrogen rebound shouldn’t be a problem if an AI is tapered off of at the end of the cycle. (That doesn’t apply to DS or PH’s because some of them cause delayed gyno; not sure of the reason why)

532

[quote]aikidoka wrote:
I’m guessing if I have low hormone levels it would reduce the effectiveness of any ph that I could take.[/quote]

Not necessarily. In most cases using a PH or DS will stop your body from producing testosterone naturally. So say you have a testerone level of 10 (not an actual value, just an arbitary number for the example) and you introduce a suppressive hormone. Your natural production goes down to 0. If you start with a level of 5 and introduce a suppressive hormone your natural level will also go to zero.

But definitely get yourself checked out.

533

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
LiveFromThe781 wrote:
BONEZ217 wrote:
LiveFromThe781 wrote:
so im gettin kinda worried that my PCT hasnt shown up, i still have like a week left of my cycle so im not overly worried since itll most likely show up but incase it doesnt i was wondering if i could just get more Havoc and taper off it like a 30/20/20/10/10 or something?

Probably not the best idea at all. If it were an effective method no one would ever use a hepatoxic SERM like tamoxifen. If your SERM doesn’t show up place an order for next day delivery OR get more havoc stay on for 7-10 days longer and place another order for a SERM. Didn’t your order come with a tracking number?

idk a lot about steroids, hell i dont really know shit.

but if the reason for taking a SERM w/ Havoc is because havoc is anti-estrogenic itself and theres a chance for an estrogen rebound after dropping it then wouldnt lowering it do the same thing anyway since as we already know its anti-estrogenic which is the only reason it needs a PCT because it doesnt cause shutdown…well it hasnt in me yet and ive been on for 2 weeks.

Come on man. Do you think about what you type before posting it?

Why do you you think Havoc doesn’t cause shutdown?

How do you know that you are not shutdown?

You said yourself that you don’t know much about AAS, so how can you come to those conclusions.

And no, using a SERM is not just to prevent estrogen rebound. Even when using an aromatising compound estrogen rebound shouldn’t be a problem if an AI is tapered off of at the end of the cycle. (That doesn’t apply to DS or PH’s because some of them cause delayed gyno; not sure of the reason why)[/quote]

i figure im not shut down cause my nuts are still hanging like im 80.

im still going to use a PCT i was just curios ;D

534

[quote]LiveFromThe781 wrote:
BONEZ217 wrote:
LiveFromThe781 wrote:
BONEZ217 wrote:
LiveFromThe781 wrote:
so im gettin kinda worried that my PCT hasnt shown up, i still have like a week left of my cycle so im not overly worried since itll most likely show up but incase it doesnt i was wondering if i could just get more Havoc and taper off it like a 30/20/20/10/10 or something?

Probably not the best idea at all. If it were an effective method no one would ever use a hepatoxic SERM like tamoxifen. If your SERM doesn’t show up place an order for next day delivery OR get more havoc stay on for 7-10 days longer and place another order for a SERM. Didn’t your order come with a tracking number?

idk a lot about steroids, hell i dont really know shit.

but if the reason for taking a SERM w/ Havoc is because havoc is anti-estrogenic itself and theres a chance for an estrogen rebound after dropping it then wouldnt lowering it do the same thing anyway since as we already know its anti-estrogenic which is the only reason it needs a PCT because it doesnt cause shutdown…well it hasnt in me yet and ive been on for 2 weeks.

Come on man. Do you think about what you type before posting it?

Why do you you think Havoc doesn’t cause shutdown?

How do you know that you are not shutdown?

You said yourself that you don’t know much about AAS, so how can you come to those conclusions.

And no, using a SERM is not just to prevent estrogen rebound. Even when using an aromatising compound estrogen rebound shouldn’t be a problem if an AI is tapered off of at the end of the cycle. (That doesn’t apply to DS or PH’s because some of them cause delayed gyno; not sure of the reason why)

i figure im not shut down cause my nuts are still hanging like im 80.

im still going to use a PCT i was just curios ;D[/quote]

Good idea. How low your nuts are hanging is NOT a barometer for your level of shutdown. Some people’s testes dont atrophy on 500mg/wk Test for 8 weeks but you better believe they are fully suppressed after week 3 or so.

The reason why it is easy to recover from a 4 week cycle of a DS is partly because of the fact that you are not suppressed for very long.

535

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
aikidoka wrote:
I’m guessing if I have low hormone levels it would reduce the effectiveness of any ph that I could take.

Not necessarily. In most cases using a PH or DS will stop your body from producing testosterone naturally. So say you have a testerone level of 10 (not an actual value, just an arbitary number for the example) and you introduce a suppressive hormone. Your natural production goes down to 0. If you start with a level of 5 and introduce a suppressive hormone your natural level will also go to zero.

But definitely get yourself checked out. [/quote]

Thanks, that makes sense. I’ll get checked after I finish up the 4ad-ec cycle and had time to recover. I’m thinking of going through renewman as I doubt I can easily find a Dr that’s listed as PCP or in-network on my insurance. I’ll have to do the paperwork myself and get reimbursed, such is life.

536

[quote]JoeGood wrote:
I’ve been reading here and on other sources and after having done a couple of ph cycles I’m planning on doing a six week H-drol/Epi stack. So I thought I’d run this by people and see if there was something I’m not seeing clearly.

Week 1 50mg H-drol
Week 2 50mg H-drol
Week 3 50mg H-drol, 30 mg Epi
Week 4 50mg H-drol, 30 mg Epi
Week 5 30 mg Epi
Week 6 30 mg Epi

Pct: nolva 40, 40, 40, 20, 20 ,20

Live-52, Milk thistle, bp support, during cycle and pct.

Then six to ten weeks normalization.

Any glaring issues I’m missing.
[/quote]

what would you say to a 3 week cycle of H-Drol @75 mgs/ED but increasing the Epi to 40mgs?

537

[quote]LiveFromThe781 wrote:
JoeGood wrote:
I’ve been reading here and on other sources and after having done a couple of ph cycles I’m planning on doing a six week H-drol/Epi stack. So I thought I’d run this by people and see if there was something I’m not seeing clearly.

Week 1 50mg H-drol
Week 2 50mg H-drol
Week 3 50mg H-drol, 30 mg Epi
Week 4 50mg H-drol, 30 mg Epi
Week 5 30 mg Epi
Week 6 30 mg Epi

Pct: nolva 40, 40, 40, 20, 20 ,20

Live-52, Milk thistle, bp support, during cycle and pct.

Then six to ten weeks normalization.

Any glaring issues I’m missing.

what would you say to a 3 week cycle of H-Drol @75 mgs/ED but increasing the Epi to 40mgs?[/quote]

I’m not sure what sort of H-drol he got, but I know mine only comes in 50 mg caps. I’m planning a similar deal, but flip-flopped, with only a 1 week overlap. So it looks like this-
Wk1-30mg epi
Wk2-30mg epi
Wk3-30mg epi
Wk4-30mg epi, 50mg Hdrol
Wk5-50mg Hdrol
Wk6-50mg Hdrol
Wk7-50mg Hdrol

Lol. Funny how we were on a similar wavelength. Would anyone recommend one protocol over the other?

538

[quote]Thatguy1083 wrote:
LiveFromThe781 wrote:
JoeGood wrote:
I’ve been reading here and on other sources and after having done a couple of ph cycles I’m planning on doing a six week H-drol/Epi stack. So I thought I’d run this by people and see if there was something I’m not seeing clearly.

Week 1 50mg H-drol
Week 2 50mg H-drol
Week 3 50mg H-drol, 30 mg Epi
Week 4 50mg H-drol, 30 mg Epi
Week 5 30 mg Epi
Week 6 30 mg Epi

Pct: nolva 40, 40, 40, 20, 20 ,20

Live-52, Milk thistle, bp support, during cycle and pct.

Then six to ten weeks normalization.

Any glaring issues I’m missing.

what would you say to a 3 week cycle of H-Drol @75 mgs/ED but increasing the Epi to 40mgs?

I’m not sure what sort of H-drol he got, but I know mine only comes in 50 mg caps. I’m planning a similar deal, but flip-flopped, with only a 1 week overlap. So it looks like this-
Wk1-30mg epi
Wk2-30mg epi
Wk3-30mg epi
Wk4-30mg epi, 50mg Hdrol
Wk5-50mg Hdrol
Wk6-50mg Hdrol
Wk7-50mg Hdrol

Lol. Funny how we were on a similar wavelength. Would anyone recommend one protocol over the other?[/quote]

Hdrol - at least CEL’s product of that exact name - comes in 25mg caps.

Six of one, half dozen of the other. I can’t think of any particular reason to start with one cpd or the other, so I’d put it down to personal preference.

Hdrol seems milder to me, so it might be an easier ride if you started with it. As they’re both methylated though, I wouldn’t run this personally but if I did I’d stick to 30mg epi as you’ve written it.

539

[quote]Thatguy1083 wrote:
LiveFromThe781 wrote:
JoeGood wrote:
I’ve been reading here and on other sources and after having done a couple of ph cycles I’m planning on doing a six week H-drol/Epi stack. So I thought I’d run this by people and see if there was something I’m not seeing clearly.

Week 1 50mg H-drol
Week 2 50mg H-drol
Week 3 50mg H-drol, 30 mg Epi
Week 4 50mg H-drol, 30 mg Epi
Week 5 30 mg Epi
Week 6 30 mg Epi

Pct: nolva 40, 40, 40, 20, 20 ,20

Live-52, Milk thistle, bp support, during cycle and pct.

Then six to ten weeks normalization.

Any glaring issues I’m missing.

what would you say to a 3 week cycle of H-Drol @75 mgs/ED but increasing the Epi to 40mgs?

I’m not sure what sort of H-drol he got, but I know mine only comes in 50 mg caps. I’m planning a similar deal, but flip-flopped, with only a 1 week overlap. So it looks like this-
Wk1-30mg epi
Wk2-30mg epi
Wk3-30mg epi
Wk4-30mg epi, 50mg Hdrol
Wk5-50mg Hdrol
Wk6-50mg Hdrol
Wk7-50mg Hdrol

Lol. Funny how we were on a similar wavelength. Would anyone recommend one protocol over the other?[/quote]

im only asking cause im a cheapskate and noticed that 1 bottle of H-Drol only has like 1500 mgs and most these cycles require 2000 and i dont really want to buy 2 bottles cause i plan on just taking real AAS soon. i might even go for the real deal after my normalization is done from the cycle im on now. …and im definately getting an acne antibiodic prescription.

im getting like none on my face just nasty ones on my arms. and back.

540

dont cycle unless your planning on doing it correctly NO MATTER THE COST.

People from the burbs of mass are not stuntin those glasses look ridiculous.