Thanks for the advice whotookmyname…
[quote]LiveFromThe781 wrote:
so im almost 2 weeks into the Havoc now, starting to see some of the side effects pile on, pretty much just the acne though. i got two nasty buggers on my tricep and a couple others on my forearm, im prone to acne anyway so at least i have prescription strength cream at home…still sucks, but on the plus side for what its worth i do feel like im seeing some kind of gains. someone at the gym even told me i was looking bigger which is cool because it was during a back day so i know it wasnt from chest pumps and shit.[/quote]
Yea if you’re getting acne from Havoc it’s going to suck if you ever do a real cycle. It’s gona suck even harder when you use nolvadex. Don’t pop sabaceous (sp) gland acne, it’ll scar.
i already have a bunch of acne scars. nothing out of this world though.
i gonna need to hit up a doctor and get on this antibacterial pill i was on. the worst part about it is that i feel like everyone probaly thinks im on hardcore juice just cause of that even though i had this shit way before i even ever lifted a weight.
as far as strength gains, i would say not so much. i dont feel superhumanly strong and its still a struggle to increase reps/weight each session but 95% of the time i get it done. like i said, i havent even hit the 2 week mark yet and i keep hearing this magic week 3 thing so idk maybe ill magically get huge after 3 weeks but im kind of doubtful of that.
and speaking of PCT itd be nice if mine ever fucking showed up. im getting pretty paranoid about it and i know it wasnt wise to start a cycle without PCT on hand but thats just me.
Poster boy sums it up.
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
Yea if you’re getting acne from Havoc it’s going to suck if you ever do a real cycle. It’s gona suck even harder when you use nolvadex. Don’t pop sabaceous (sp) gland acne, it’ll scar. [/quote]
Sebaceous.
I can’t wait for my Hdrol and Epistane cycle! Golly gee-wiz!
good site with reasonable prices imo.
[quote]whotookmyname wrote:
XXXFrog wrote:
I think you guys are getting me mixed up with the question before mine… I was told to try out SUS 500 with an estrogen block and a pct… I just need to know if I need to take the estrogen blocker while Im on the SUS…??.. Or do I wait until I have finished the cycle…
Hi XXXFrog,
I followed the thread clearly, I believe. Here’s the way I see things -
SUS 500 seems to be aimed at grabbing marketshare from the so-called “tren PHs”, which probably aren’t going to be available much longer. Of course, with a name like “SUS 500” this brings forth suggestions of the very real Test product, sustanon, which is pretty sneaky 
Eigein wisely advised you to go with a standard SERM (nolva… there is also clomid or torem) instead of the NoEstrogen product that you mentioned. Run this SERM at the END of your cycle. There is no aromatization from SUS 500 and you aren’t going to have estrogen issues during a cycle.
In your next post, you basically asked whether SUS 500 was worth it, and IMO it isn’t. I don’t have a high degree of comfort with most PH / designers, although there are some, such as epi and hdrol, that I think are probably better than others. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t doubt that one can put on a fair amount of muscle using most of these - I worry about side effects with poorly characterized compounds. A double progestin like SUS 500 isn’t something that I’d recommend.
Since it contains progestins, follow the advice we gave All2Ez wrt potential prolactin sides (read: milky gyno!) If you do run that cycle, preload and maintain a healthy dose of P5P (vit B6). It’s no guarantee, but it should probably help. This stuff PROBABLY isn’t strong enough to cause prolactin problems so if you do use it, don’t stress yourself, just be ready.[/quote]
So how much of P5P should I load up on and then how much to take daily?..
I could give you a number and act really sure of myself but the truth is, accurate dosage is a crapshoot. This is typically studied on lactating females and / or in breast cancer situations, not on bodybuilders using a PH. It isn’t good to take particularly high doses of B6 for long periods of time.
That said, I don’t think there is any point in going beyond 200mg, maybe 300mg tops of P5P, with this PH. Take 100mg two or three times a day. Avoid B6 complexes - stick to the active component to lessen potential sides.
cheers & keep us updated on your cycle
[quote]XXXFrog wrote:
whotookmyname wrote:
XXXFrog wrote:
… (snipped)
So how much of P5P should I load up on and then how much to take daily?.. [/quote]
[quote]XXXFrog wrote:
So how much of P5P should I load up on and then how much to take daily?.. [/quote]
Make sure you read up on the possible negative effects of B6 in high doses. Just because you can buy it at the supermarket doesn’t mean it has no risks.
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
XXXFrog wrote:
So how much of P5P should I load up on and then how much to take daily?..
Make sure you read up on the possible negative effects of B6 in high doses. Just because you can buy it at the supermarket doesn’t mean it has no risks. [/quote]
if your taking some sort of cycle support, double check the ingriedients for B6.
i bought some p5p then realized i didnt need it because it was included in my support supplement already.
ive decided to load using 200 mgs a day.
P5P - the active - is more potent, and importantly, it apparently avoids much of the neurotoxic complications of high dosing entire B6.
I’ve never been comfortable with explanations for prolactin-related issues. Heck, even healthy females that have never had a child can come down with prolactin problems that can stump doctors.
There are a number of factors that can be implicated beyond simply the exogenous progestin, starting with depressed dopamine levels and potential estrogen co-involvement, so micromanaging a cycle to blindly avoid a side is really a shot in the dark IMO.
If by chance there are problems though, you’ll need caber or maybe bromo, both dopamine agonists. A standard AI won’t help with purely progestin-induced gyno.
I definitely want to hear how you two guys do in terms of gains, though. I’m honestly not too worried about you coming down with any sides as long as you don’t go overboard and run things for too long or start stacking with a really heavy aromatic.
got a question, how is it that if you take something like test for 4 weeks you can lose all your gains just because it was a short cycle and your body didnt have time to adapt but if you run something like Havoc or H-Drol youre supposed to keep all the gains even though the cycles only last like 4 weeks at the longest?
is it because the gains arent as large so you just arent putting on a whole ton to lose in the first palce or is there something in the chemical makeup?
[quote]LiveFromThe781 wrote:
got a question, how is it that if you take something like test for 4 weeks you can lose all your gains just because it was a short cycle and your body didnt have time to adapt but if you run something like Havoc or H-Drol youre supposed to keep all the gains even though the cycles only last like 4 weeks at the longest?
is it because the gains arent as large so you just arent putting on a whole ton to lose in the first palce or is there something in the chemical makeup?[/quote]
If you run test for 4 weeks properly with an adequate PCT, the duration will not be the reason you lose some of the gains. You may lose some regardless. People lose gains after a 10 week cycle. No shot you will keep all of the gains on a DS either. Steroids just don’t work like that. In almost all cases it is a 3 steps forward 1 step back sort of thing. Read up on class I and class II androgens for some more clarity on why certain drugs are notorious for fleeting gains.
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
LiveFromThe781 wrote:
got a question, how is it that if you take something like test for 4 weeks you can lose all your gains just because it was a short cycle and your body didnt have time to adapt but if you run something like Havoc or H-Drol youre supposed to keep all the gains even though the cycles only last like 4 weeks at the longest?
is it because the gains arent as large so you just arent putting on a whole ton to lose in the first palce or is there something in the chemical makeup?
If you run test for 4 weeks properly with an adequate PCT, the duration will not be the reason you lose some of the gains. You may lose some regardless. People lose gains after a 10 week cycle. No shot you will keep all of the gains on a DS either. Steroids just don’t work like that. In almost all cases it is a 3 steps forward 1 step back sort of thing. Read up on class I and class II androgens for some more clarity on why certain drugs are notorious for fleeting gains. [/quote]
To do a 4 weeker of test would require something that kicks faster. In other words prop.
4 weeks of prop with a proper PCT could be comparable or better than orals if you front loaded.
Test simply doesnt act fast enough in most cases to make a 4 weeker worthwhile.
PH’s are all fast acting orals, they produce more dramatic gains quickly, and although their gains are harder to hold, it can be done.
Its not so much that PH’s are special, if you stacked a type 1 and type 2 oral steroid together for 4-5 weeks, and did a proper PCT youd see very similar gains.
The fast acting orals for only 4 weeks produce quick gains, and dont cause as much shutdown as a longer cycle would. Speeding recovery time and minimizing losses from that standpoint.
Its a combination of how fast they act and how much suppression they cause in a given time frame.
Orals get a bad rap because people misuse them, if used properly orals (prohormones included) are very useful drugs.
Its also worth noting that PH’s are generally used by younger, more inexperienced users, and hence they are generally still in a time of higher natural production, and are generally yet to reach their genetic limit.
Its very easy to hold gains below your genetic limit, holding 20 pounds over is very difficult long term, hence many people generally do maintenance cycles every now and agian.
West, wasnt InTheZone/ToneBone doing like 2-3 week high dose oral cycles with decent success?
[quote]Stronghold wrote:
West, wasnt InTheZone/ToneBone doing like 2-3 week high dose oral cycles with decent success?[/quote]
Well define decent. I seem to remember some members doing some relatively high dose oral only cycles with proper PCTs.
They made gains, especially on obviously. One does not take A bombs, anavar, Dbol and the like and not see explosive strength and mass gains.
but that strength fades after cycle, even if alot of the mass is kept, without that strength, its harder to hold the gains.
I do think decent gains are possible if you choose the correct orals, aka a type 1 and a type 2 stacked.
But simply orals dont measure up with test, which is both a type 1 and 2 by itself, very useful for both growth and strength, and you generally cycle it for an extended period of time.
Its not that you cant make gains with orals, its just that the gains arent going to be as good, and its alot of hassle and liver issues to worry over just to avoid injecting.
Theres nothing “special” about injectables, its Test that is special, and usually one does not run injectables without test anyways.
Its simply cheap and very very effective at all aspects of looking masculine, cutting, bulking, strength, anything.
I’ve been reading here and on other sources and after having done a couple of ph cycles I’m planning on doing a six week H-drol/Epi stack. So I thought I’d run this by people and see if there was something I’m not seeing clearly.
Week 1 50mg H-drol
Week 2 50mg H-drol
Week 3 50mg H-drol, 30 mg Epi
Week 4 50mg H-drol, 30 mg Epi
Week 5 30 mg Epi
Week 6 30 mg Epi
Pct: nolva 40, 40, 40, 20, 20 ,20
Live-52, Milk thistle, bp support, during cycle and pct.
Then six to ten weeks normalization.
Any glaring issues I’m missing.
Id say your Hdrol dose is low.
Most people see better results on 75-100.
[quote]JoeGood wrote:
…
Then six to ten weeks normalization.
…
[/quote]
Just to be safe it’d be better to make that 10-12 weeks normalization after running a 6 week bridged cycle with two 17aa’s.
iva always used clomid for my pct, but i have been reading alot about nolva. is one better than the other?
my cycle is 8 weeks of bold with h drol for the last 4 weeks. dosage are 600 mg of bold all the way through with 50 mg of h drol