Professor X: A Request

Training Bodybuilding
81

[quote]yustas wrote:
Professor X wrote:
loctite_zexel wrote:
On a similar topic, say I was focusing on shoulders for a 3-4 week cycle (hitting the shoulders 2-3x a week)… should I limit horizontal pressing to just one day a week or would it be better to cut it out entirely?

Thanks for the responses

I would never do shoulders 3 times in one week unless I really wanted arthritis and shoulder surgery by the age of 35.

Professor,

Is this because of the nature of the shoulders or would you recommend the same approach to any lagging muscle groups?

-Yustas[/quote]

I see no point in training any muscle group 3 times a week aside from possibly abs. If you are lifting heavy enough, your target muscle group shouldn’t even be recovering fast enough to be hit the day after next. It also puts you at risk of neglecting other body parts. Your shoulders are possibly your weakest joint in your body in terms of how much sheer stress it can handle. Your knees would no doubt come in second. This is why there are so many lifters who end up with serious shoulder injuries. Of all muscle groups to play around with, I would avoid overworking that one above all.

Along with that, no, that does not mean that I believe you can’t see progress by training a group 3 times a week. It is that the overall benefit to overall body development is lessened if you put that much priority on any one muscle group.

82

Interesting philosophy given all the interest in total body training right now.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
yustas wrote:
Professor X wrote:
loctite_zexel wrote:
On a similar topic, say I was focusing on shoulders for a 3-4 week cycle (hitting the shoulders 2-3x a week)… should I limit horizontal pressing to just one day a week or would it be better to cut it out entirely?

Thanks for the responses

I would never do shoulders 3 times in one week unless I really wanted arthritis and shoulder surgery by the age of 35.

Professor,

Is this because of the nature of the shoulders or would you recommend the same approach to any lagging muscle groups?

-Yustas

I see no point in training any muscle group 3 times a week aside from possibly abs. If you are lifting heavy enough, your target muscle group shouldn’t even be recovering fast enough to be hit the day after next. It also puts you at risk of neglecting other body parts. Your shoulders are possibly your weakest joint in your body in terms of how much sheer stress it can handle. Your knees would no doubt come in second. This is why there are so many lifters who end up with serious shoulder injuries. Of all muscle groups to play around with, I would avoid overworking that one above all.

Along with that, no, that does not mean that I believe you can’t see progress by training a group 3 times a week. It is that the overall benefit to overall body development is lessened if you put that much priority on any one muscle group.[/quote]

83

[quote]Professor X wrote:
loctite_zexel wrote:

LoL, thats quite a picture you paint. However, you’re idea of hitting shoulders in a day is probably a lot more intense than what I was planning on doing. I would probably do 4-6 sets for a total of 30-50 reps/ session. Does that change your opinion in anyway? Or is it still probably a bad idea?

Yes, it changes my opinion. It makes me think that you are wasting time in the gym by not being very intense with your training. Why would you work a muscle with less inetnsity just so you could train it more often? 4-6 sets of what?[/quote]

Hmm… that didn’t come out quite the way I intended it to. I didn’t mean that I was purposely doing a half-assed job on my shoulders in order to train them 2x a week. What I meant was that after 4-6 sets of 10-8 reps of overhead pressing, my shoulders are pretty much spent.

For example, I normally do this on one
‘shoulder training day’

(I use a weight wherein I approach near-failure on the last rep of the last set)

standing military presses 5x7
chins 5x7
squats 5x8
then maybe a set 15 of lateral flies and wide-grip pull-downs.

I hope that clears up my question. Thanks again for taking time to reply.

84

[quote]John K wrote:
Interesting philosophy given all the interest in total body training right now.

[/quote]

Is that the new fad? What happened to kettle balls? Did that fall out of favor so soon?

85

[quote]loctite_zexel wrote:
Hmm… that didn’t come out quite the way I intended it to. I didn’t mean that I was purposely doing a half-assed job on my shoulders in order to train them 2x a week. What I meant was that after 4-6 sets of 10-8 reps of overhead pressing, my shoulders are pretty much spent.

For example, I normally do this on one
‘shoulder training day’

(I use a weight wherein I approach near-failure on the last rep of the last set)

standing military presses 5x7
chins 5x7
squats 5x8
then maybe a set 15 of lateral flies and wide-grip pull-downs.

I hope that clears up my question. Thanks again for taking time to reply.[/quote]

Why would your entire routine for shoulders only consist of overhead presses? I mean, I see where you threw in one set of lateral raises at the end just so you can say you did them, but I don’t understand why someone would do squats, chins, military presses and lat pull downs all on the same day.

What results has this provided for you beyond “beginner gains”?

Do you train like this 3 times a week?

How much do you weigh?

This seems like a great way to not give everything you have to any specific muscle group. I would find it impossible to thouroughly pound a specific muscle if I was training 3 and 4 different major body parts in one day.

86

Full body training or hitting each muscle multiple times per week has been advocated in most of the “olde time” courses I’ve seen, as well as the Reg Park and Peary Rader/Ironman 50’s courses, the Bill Starr 70’s material, and by my understanding is the approach that is usually used with athletes such as Olympic lifters. On this site, Chad Waterbury has been writing about it, and Chris Shugart used a total body appraoch in his velocity diet experiment.

So by my reckoning, working a muscle multiple times per week is actually the historic norm in training more so than highly split up approaches.

I may be wrong.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
John K wrote:
Interesting philosophy given all the interest in total body training right now.

Is that the new fad? What happened to kettle balls? Did that fall out of favor so soon?[/quote]

87

Prof, you should read some of the training articles on this site so you see where some of these approaches are coming from. Take a look at “Total Body Training” by Chad Waterbury, for example. Take a look at Chris Shugart’s Velocity Diet articles.

Or if you read Dan John’s “One Lift A Day” article you’d see an example of a routine where each week consists of the same 5 exercises, like Day 1: Squat, Day 2: Bench, Day 3: Row, Day 4: Shoulder Press, Day 5 Chin.

Regarding this guy’s shoulder training, there has been plenty of advice given on this site along the lines that heavy rowing and chinning will hit the rear delts, and lots of benching will hit the anterior delts, so all you really need to focus on is the medial delts. In fact, there have been many articles that don’t have any direct shoulder work at all claiming you get everything you need from other movements.

I’m not criticizing your advice, and I think you’re right to question people’s motives and assumptions and goals, but I get the impression you’re not that familiar with the material on the site whose forums you’re participating in.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
loctite_zexel wrote:
Hmm… that didn’t come out quite the way I intended it to. I didn’t mean that I was purposely doing a half-assed job on my shoulders in order to train them 2x a week. What I meant was that after 4-6 sets of 10-8 reps of overhead pressing, my shoulders are pretty much spent.

For example, I normally do this on one
‘shoulder training day’

(I use a weight wherein I approach near-failure on the last rep of the last set)

standing military presses 5x7
chins 5x7
squats 5x8
then maybe a set 15 of lateral flies and wide-grip pull-downs.

I hope that clears up my question. Thanks again for taking time to reply.

Why would your entire routine for shoulders only consist of overhead presses? I mean, I see where you threw in one set of lateral raises at the end just so you can say you did them, but I don’t understand why someone would do squats, chins, military presses and lat pull downs all on the same day.

What results has this provided for you beyond “beginner gains”?

Do you train like this 3 times a week?

How much do you weigh?

This seems like a great way to not give everything you have to any specific muscle group. I would find it impossible to thouroughly pound a specific muscle if I was training 3 and 4 different major body parts in one day.[/quote]

88

[quote]Professor X wrote:

Why would your entire routine for shoulders only consist of overhead presses? I mean, I see where you threw in one set of lateral raises at the end just so you can say you did them, but I don’t understand why someone would do squats, chins, military presses and lat pull downs all on the same day.

What results has this provided for you beyond “beginner gains”?

Do you train like this 3 times a week?

How much do you weigh?

This seems like a great way to not give everything you have to any specific muscle group. I would find it impossible to thouroughly pound a specific muscle if I was training 3 and 4 different major body parts in one day.[/quote]

I’m 146 lbs and 5’8.5"

To answer your question, I’ve been trainig seriously for almost 2 weeks (8 months of idiotic lifting before hand), and this is what I’ve been doing. Exercises are done in supersets.

Weight includes barbell

Monday:
a.1. Body-weight Chins 5x7 (i only do about 5 on the last set)
a.2. Standing Military Press 5x7 (75 lbs)
b.1. Squats 5x8 (145 lbs)
b.2. Weighted Swiss Ball Crunches 3x20 (10 lb)

i finish off with 1 set of 15 of lateral raises and wide-grip lat-pull downs (for the ‘burn effect’ <= whatever that is)

Wednesday:
a.1. Barbell Bent-over Rows 5x10 (85 lbs)
a.2. Flat Barbell Bench-Press 5x9 (110 lbs)
b.1. Good Mornings 5x10 (120 lbs)
b.2. Weighted Leg Raises 5x10 (12.5 lb weight held between legs)

i finish off with 1 set of 15 of chest flies and dumbbell rows.

Friday:
a.1. Biceps Curl 5x10 (50 lbs)
a.2. Weighted Dips (focus on triceps) 5x10 (10 lb weight held between legs)
b.1. Deadlift 6x4 (135 lbs)
b.2. Reverse Crunch 4x12 (Bodyweight)

So far I’ve done 5 days of this (M,W,F,M,W)… I either increase the weights or reps a little each week.

The reason I ask about shoulder training is I am considering adding a fourth day of lifting and want to incorporate some sort of shoulder work sometime in the future (maybe in a month or so)

thanks for the replies

89

[quote]Professor X wrote:

Along with that, no, that does not mean that I believe you can’t see progress by training a group 3 times a week. [/quote]

What is your recommendation to bring lagging muscles up to par given 3 times a week training opportunity? I’m 6’0 198 lbs 32 years old. I was 147 about 8 months ago. I want to take it well past 200lbs, perhaps to 250 ish lbs before considering my first cut.

Thanks,
-Yustas

90

[quote]Professor X wrote:
If you are lifting heavy enough, your target muscle group shouldn’t even be recovering fast enough to be hit the day after next.[/quote]

What do you consider heavy enough lifting? Are you talking about a weight used for a given exercise or a number of exercises per muscle group?

What is your general recommendation for a number of exercises per muscle group on a given training day? For example. Generally speaking how many exercises would you recommend for back/triceps split, chest/shoulders, etc?

Thanks,
-Yustas

91

[quote]Professor X wrote:
xMeat_Headx wrote:
Prof, do you do any direct tricep work? Also, I never saw your old pic, any chance you could repost it or post a new one?

For triceps, I suually do triceps pressdowns, dips using the HS machine, kickbacks, and single arm pressdowns with the cable. That Cybex machine is good as well if you workout at a gym that has one. I will pm my pic to you.[/quote]

Prof, could you PM your pic to me too?

92

[quote]loctite_zexel wrote:
I’m 146 lbs and 5’8.5"

To answer your question, I’ve been trainig seriously for almost 2 weeks (8 months of idiotic lifting before hand), and this is what I’ve been doing. Exercises are done in supersets.

Weight includes barbell

Monday:
a.1. Body-weight Chins 5x7 (i only do about 5 on the last set)
a.2. Standing Military Press 5x7 (75 lbs)
b.1. Squats 5x8 (145 lbs)
b.2. Weighted Swiss Ball Crunches 3x20 (10 lb)

i finish off with 1 set of 15 of lateral raises and wide-grip lat-pull downs (for the ‘burn effect’ <= whatever that is)

Wednesday:
a.1. Barbell Bent-over Rows 5x10 (85 lbs)
a.2. Flat Barbell Bench-Press 5x9 (110 lbs)
b.1. Good Mornings 5x10 (120 lbs)
b.2. Weighted Leg Raises 5x10 (12.5 lb weight held between legs)

i finish off with 1 set of 15 of chest flies and dumbbell rows.

Friday:
a.1. Biceps Curl 5x10 (50 lbs)
a.2. Weighted Dips (focus on triceps) 5x10 (10 lb weight held between legs)
b.1. Deadlift 6x4 (135 lbs)
b.2. Reverse Crunch 4x12 (Bodyweight)

So far I’ve done 5 days of this (M,W,F,M,W)… I either increase the weights or reps a little each week.

The reason I ask about shoulder training is I am considering adding a fourth day of lifting and want to incorporate some sort of shoulder work sometime in the future (maybe in a month or so)

thanks for the replies[/quote]

What is your goal in training like this? I would never start a beginner with a training schedule like this. You would never be able to get a feel for how certain exercises actually affect target muscle groups if your training is from head to toe every single workout. Why are you only training 3 days a week?

93

[quote]yustas wrote:
Professor X wrote:

Along with that, no, that does not mean that I believe you can’t see progress by training a group 3 times a week.

What is your recommendation to bring lagging muscles up to par given 3 times a week training opportunity? I’m 6’0 198 lbs 32 years old. I was 147 about 8 months ago. I want to take it well past 200lbs, perhaps to 250 ish lbs before considering my first cut.

Thanks,
-Yustas
[/quote]

Why are you only able to train 3 days a week? Beyond that, considering you have only been lifting seriously for under a year, I would venture a guess that most (if not all) of your body parts are lagging to some degree. In the past, I have bumped certain muscle groups into being trained twice a week (as I usually only do each body part once), however, I have never tried to cram all of this into only 3 training sessions…and that included all of the way through school.

I personally don’t believe that just 3 training sessions a week will provide optimal results. You aren’t giving yourself enough time to focus on any one body part. If training like this has resulted in lagging muscle groups, it really doesn’t surprise me.

94

[quote]yustas wrote:
Professor X wrote:
If you are lifting heavy enough, your target muscle group shouldn’t even be recovering fast enough to be hit the day after next.

What do you consider heavy enough lifting? Are you talking about a weight used for a given exercise or a number of exercises per muscle group?

What is your general recommendation for a number of exercises per muscle group on a given training day? For example. Generally speaking how many exercises would you recommend for back/triceps split, chest/shoulders, etc?

Thanks,
-Yustas[/quote]

Aside from back and shoulder training (which can be 4-5 different exercises depending on how I feel), I usually only do 2-3 exercises per body part. If I am doing biceps, it means that after those 3 exercises, I would find it hard to scratch my head. That is how heavy I am referring to. If you still have it in you to go train another large muscle group after training back or chest, then I personally feel as if you didn’t train that original body part hard enough.

The exception to that would be a beginner as they usually are just learning the exercises and shouldn’t going for all out intensity until they learn how to not injure themselves along with how to feel the target muscle group.

95

ProfX, You throw around some sick weights and I know you have to be a big SOB. What were your stats? Sorry if I missed them. I now your into to BB, but have you ever thought about trying PL? You could probably do some real damage with some good gear and with a couple of knowledgeable PLers for partners. I am a PLer, but sometimes I will use some HS machines and they do work really well. I use the high row all the time. The plate loaded dip is badass too.

JOe

96

[quote]Joebob wrote:
ProfX, You throw around some sick weights and I know you have to be a big SOB. What were your stats? Sorry if I missed them.
JOe[/quote]

You didn’t miss them. I will pm that info to you.

97

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Why are you only able to train 3 days a week?[/quote]

Because of my work schedule.

-Yustas

98

[quote]Professor X wrote:
I usually only do 2-3 exercises per body part. If I am doing biceps, it means that after those 3 exercises, I would find it hard to scratch my head. That is how heavy I am referring to. [/quote]

What are the loading parameters that you recommend? Can you please give an example? Do you pick a certain weight and do all of those 3 exercises with it? How does your sets/reps setup looks like?

Thanks,
-Yustas

99

[quote]yustas wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Why are you only able to train 3 days a week?

Because of my work schedule.

-Yustas

[/quote]

I knew that would be the answer. Let me rephrase this, are you saying that your work schedule is so intense that there is absolutely no way on Earth that you can train even four days a week? I would assume most of the people on this forum are either holding down full time jobs, are full time students or possibly both. I am sure most of can attest to MAKING TIME.

100

[quote]yustas wrote:
Professor X wrote:
I usually only do 2-3 exercises per body part. If I am doing biceps, it means that after those 3 exercises, I would find it hard to scratch my head. That is how heavy I am referring to.

What are the loading parameters that you recommend? Can you please give an example? Do you pick a certain weight and do all of those 3 exercises with it? How does your sets/reps setup looks like?

Thanks,
-Yustas
[/quote]

Loading parameters? Gawd, I work in a clinic and I don’t speak like this. No, I don’t use the same weight for three different reps. I slowly progress up in weight until I am using the maximum amount of weight on my last set that I can move about 4-6 times. Once I can move that same weight about 8 times, that is a clue that it is time to increase the weight again.

The sets before that last set are to aid in preperation for that last set and to work more muscle fibers in the process. That means while I am going “relatively heavy” on them, it is not an all out effort as I can usually get the weight up 10-12 times.

If I am doing 5 plates a side for the last set of lying flat bench hs press, my first set is usually 3 plates a side…then 4…then 5. If I plan on curling an 85lbs dumbbell for my last set, my first set may be as low as 45lbs just to get blood into the area. There are no “loading parameters” etched in stone. I train by how I feel in that muscle group. What sense would it make to say, “I always start with 50lbs” if that 50lbs feels like it might cause injury that day if I don’t warm up with something much lighter?