Professor X: A Request

Training Bodybuilding
843

[quote]pro-a-ggression wrote:
Q: im currently doing a running 3-day split, so push/pull/legs, however many days i have to work out that week, ranging from usually 5-6 days. what i wanna know is what are the sort of weights you were pushing when you decided to split things up more (ie. biceps to a different day)?? biceps on back day just doesnt cut it atm. my stats – 183cm/87kg – max bench 112.5kg, squat 100kg, seated shoulder 62.5kg, db curl 25kgx6 etc.

could you possibly critique this routine:

chest/triceps/calves-
incline bench
incline db
CGBP
low-high cable flyes OR incline flyes
seated calves

lats/traps/posterior delts-
chins
bb rows
rear delt flyes
one-arm cable rows
db shrugs

quads/hams-
squat
ham curls
leg ext
leg press

off-

anterior/medial delts/triceps-
seated shoulder press
arnold press
side db raises
pjr ez-bar pullovers
tricep pulldowns

biceps/calves-
barbell curls
incline db curls
preacher curls

off-

i realise at my size, all bodyparts need improving, but knowing my body and natty bodybuilders, the arms and shoulders should be prioritized the most. my bis are bigger than my tris and as youve said before ‘ive yet to see a bodybuilder with medial delts too big’ plus i have narrow shoulders.[/quote]

First, there is no way in hell I would be doing “push pull” anything. I train MUSCLE GROUPS and have from the beginning. I also know training shoulders, triceps and chest all in one day is only going to work if you are very weak.

I have split things up from the very first second I walked in a gym so I am not sure what you mean. Only NOW are people acting like you have to wait to do this. As we can see, they sure as hell are NOT beating the rest of us in terms of development…yet they keep doing it. Go figure.

There is nothing inherently wrong with the way you have your muscles grouped together, however,the simple fact that you asked the question implies that you are not using your own logic to design your program.

Any bodybuilder with any significant size on them has tried every possible combination known to man as far as grouping those body [arts together. They settle on the one that works for them, not the one that someone else decides looks good on paper. I wouldn’t train biceps and back on the same day because I need to do more for biceps and back individually and training back alone takes nearly an hour.

844

Great thread, I read it a while ago, didn’t really understand a lot of it but after going to the gym and trying things I can now see what your saying rings true. Like the all sets being “working sets”, as my strength increases I can definitely feel that even the lighter sets are making the muscles work, when I was weaker it just felt like going through the motions.

You say that when you reach a point where you cant get more reps or add weight for whatever reason, that you concentrate on form. Does this mean you try and make each rep work the muscle as hard as possible or am I getting the wrong end of the stick?

I know some fairly big guys that like to deload when they hit plateaus, so they lower the weight of the top set and gradually build it back up over the weeks to what it was before and beyond. They seem to rate it highly, granted they arent as strong as you, but benching over 350lbs for reps. DO you have any opinions on this method?

845

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Boycedog wrote:
This might seem a bit off topic but when I look at any videos of top pro bodybuilders or even the video above, there form seems messy and careless. Jonnie Jackson above is an excellent example. This is just an observation I may be wrong.[/quote]

Yes, it was off topic and yes, you are off base.

If some guy has 20" arms and no significant injuries, your best bet is to shut up and listen to how he did it. It is NOT to judge his training as “incorrect” when the only thing that would make a method or exercise incorrect is the lack of results of the production of injury. If you avoid both, YOU ARE DOING IT RIGHT.

I see more little guys who think their form is “perfect” who get injured than bigger guys who have lifted for a decade yet have loose form.

That SHOULD tell you something.

Why didn’t it?

I have loose form on some movements. I am also relatively injury free aside from one small issue and there is no way in hell someone gains that much size without injury by doing it wrong.[/quote]

LOL. X, you sound like me on the odd occasion when I actually workout in a gym as opposed to at home. I love the personal trainers and people working out critiquing my form when I warm up with more than their maxes.

846

[quote]lewhitehurst wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Boycedog wrote:
This might seem a bit off topic but when I look at any videos of top pro bodybuilders or even the video above, there form seems messy and careless. Jonnie Jackson above is an excellent example. This is just an observation I may be wrong.[/quote]

Yes, it was off topic and yes, you are off base.

If some guy has 20" arms and no significant injuries, your best bet is to shut up and listen to how he did it. It is NOT to judge his training as “incorrect” when the only thing that would make a method or exercise incorrect is the lack of results of the production of injury. If you avoid both, YOU ARE DOING IT RIGHT.

I see more little guys who think their form is “perfect” who get injured than bigger guys who have lifted for a decade yet have loose form.

That SHOULD tell you something.

Why didn’t it?

I have loose form on some movements. I am also relatively injury free aside from one small issue and there is no way in hell someone gains that much size without injury by doing it wrong.[/quote]

LOL. X, you sound like me on the odd occasion when I actually workout in a gym as opposed to at home. I love the personal trainers and people working out critiquing my form when I warm up with more than their maxes.
[/quote]

I think those personal trainers associate big guys with loose form with ego-driven average Joes with terrible form. Also, they don’t understand the difference between under control and perfect form, I was guilty of it as well.
BTW, lewhitehurst looking huge.

847

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]pro-a-ggression wrote:
Q: im currently doing a running 3-day split, so push/pull/legs, however many days i have to work out that week, ranging from usually 5-6 days. what i wanna know is what are the sort of weights you were pushing when you decided to split things up more (ie. biceps to a different day)?? biceps on back day just doesnt cut it atm. my stats – 183cm/87kg – max bench 112.5kg, squat 100kg, seated shoulder 62.5kg, db curl 25kgx6 etc.

could you possibly critique this routine:

chest/triceps/calves-
incline bench
incline db
CGBP
low-high cable flyes OR incline flyes
seated calves

lats/traps/posterior delts-
chins
bb rows
rear delt flyes
one-arm cable rows
db shrugs

quads/hams-
squat
ham curls
leg ext
leg press

off-

anterior/medial delts/triceps-
seated shoulder press
arnold press
side db raises
pjr ez-bar pullovers
tricep pulldowns

biceps/calves-
barbell curls
incline db curls
preacher curls

off-

i realise at my size, all bodyparts need improving, but knowing my body and natty bodybuilders, the arms and shoulders should be prioritized the most. my bis are bigger than my tris and as youve said before ‘ive yet to see a bodybuilder with medial delts too big’ plus i have narrow shoulders.[/quote]

First, there is no way in hell I would be doing “push pull” anything. I train MUSCLE GROUPS and have from the beginning. I also know training shoulders, triceps and chest all in one day is only going to work if you are very weak.

I have split things up from the very first second I walked in a gym so I am not sure what you mean. Only NOW are people acting like you have to wait to do this. As we can see, they sure as hell are NOT beating the rest of us in terms of development…yet they keep doing it. Go figure.

There is nothing inherently wrong with the way you have your muscles grouped together, however,the simple fact that you asked the question implies that you are not using your own logic to design your program.

Any bodybuilder with any significant size on them has tried every possible combination known to man as far as grouping those body [arts together. They settle on the one that works for them, not the one that someone else decides looks good on paper. I wouldn’t train biceps and back on the same day because I need to do more for biceps and back individually and training back alone takes nearly an hour.[/quote]

Fuck X. Why you gotta put everything so black and white and make it so easy :wink: because it is! Everytime i write a question to you, i post it, then read it, then already know the answer before you tell me haha. Stupid fingers go too fast for my brain.

Thanks anyway, whenever i need some re-direction, ill come and abuse you, so you can abuse me back into line. Cheers buddy.

848

just out of curiosity more then anything else but i read you do the cybex plate loaded shoulder press and wondered what kind of weight your pushing on that? i tried one for the first time today and managed 3 plates a side for a few reps to my suprise as i can only do 35kg dumbells

849

[quote]sid132 wrote:
just out of curiosity more then anything else but i read you do the cybex plate loaded shoulder press and wondered what kind of weight your pushing on that? i tried one for the first time today and managed 3 plates a side for a few reps to my suprise as i can only do 35kg dumbells[/quote]

Back when I was around 200-220 or so, there were people in the gym who were using 20-30 lbs more than me per arm on DB flat presses, yet I could BB bench 40-80lb more… I don’t have a cybex shoulder press around though, just Hammerstrength, so no idea about that one.

I figure X uses about 10x100lb plates per side though, judging from the way his shoulders look :wink:

850

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:

[quote]sid132 wrote:
just out of curiosity more then anything else but i read you do the cybex plate loaded shoulder press and wondered what kind of weight your pushing on that? i tried one for the first time today and managed 3 plates a side for a few reps to my suprise as i can only do 35kg dumbells[/quote]

Back when I was around 200-220 or so, there were people in the gym who were using 20-30 lbs more than me per arm on DB flat presses, yet I could BB bench 40-80lb more… I don’t have a cybex shoulder press around though, just Hammerstrength, so no idea about that one.

I figure X uses about 10x100lb plates per side though, judging from the way his shoulders look ;)[/quote]

hammer strength cybex similar things lol i was just wondering if anyone had a great differnce in what they press vs say free weight dbs smith machine etc

851

[quote]sid132 wrote:

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:

[quote]sid132 wrote:
just out of curiosity more then anything else but i read you do the cybex plate loaded shoulder press and wondered what kind of weight your pushing on that? i tried one for the first time today and managed 3 plates a side for a few reps to my suprise as i can only do 35kg dumbells[/quote]

Back when I was around 200-220 or so, there were people in the gym who were using 20-30 lbs more than me per arm on DB flat presses, yet I could BB bench 40-80lb more… I don’t have a cybex shoulder press around though, just Hammerstrength, so no idea about that one.

I figure X uses about 10x100lb plates per side though, judging from the way his shoulders look ;)[/quote]

hammer strength cybex similar things lol i was just wondering if anyone had a great differnce in what they press vs say free weight dbs smith machine etc[/quote]

I don’t currently use a Cybex machine. The machine I use recently is a hammer strength stack plate machine with a pin. I do mostly warm up movements on it and now that I think of it, don’t do much else lately for overhead presses. I do the high HS incline machine for more delt work (usually last in the session…and from what I can tell, it seems to be working for me as far as anterior delts. I also go up to 4 45plbs plates currently on that for about 10-12 reps as my goal is to FEEL the anterior delts working and not just get the weight up.

When I used the HS plate loaded machine, i would go up to 4 45lbs plates a side.

852

[quote]Professor X wrote:
I also know training shoulders, triceps and chest all in one day is only going to work if you are very weak.
[/quote]

Either you don’t know shit, or someone should let Jason Wojo know that what he’s doing ain’t working. Cause he sure as hell don’t seem that weak.

I’ll be damned if you ain’t one ignorant motherfucker. The Catholic church is less dogmatic than you, fool.

By all means arrange your split differently, but noobs will read your shit and think you know what the hell you’re talking about, which clearly isn’t the case.

Shoulders, triceps and chest all in one day is fine.

853

[quote]knee-gro wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
I also know training shoulders, triceps and chest all in one day is only going to work if you are very weak.
[/quote]

Either you don’t know shit, or someone should let Jason Wojo know that what he’s doing ain’t working. Cause he sure as hell don’t seem that weak.

I’ll be damned if you ain’t one ignorant motherfucker. The Catholic church is less dogmatic than you, fool.

By all means arrange your split differently, but noobs will read your shit and think you know what the hell you’re talking about, which clearly isn’t the case.

Shoulders, triceps and chest all in one day is fine.[/quote]

As most know, you are a troll and I could erase your post here…but I won’t.

I use way more volume than what I saw in that video. It takes me close to an hour just to train shoulders alone as my goal is to build really big shoulders, not get into powerlifting.

Jason Wojo also trains DC which is its own program and I am sure his volume matches that.

If I ever train DC, then maybe I will do all of that in one day as well…but it is doubtful.

It is also doubtful that someone is going to use the volume that I do for shoulders and also train chest and triceps on the same day unless that is what they get PAID to do all day.

854

As probably the biggest DC fan on this board, I can’t stand when it gets thrown into these discussions as a “SEE… you are wrong!” when clealry it’s a specialized way of training and not how most are doing things.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

I use way more volume than what I saw in that video. It takes me close to an hour just to train shoulders alone as my goal is to build really big shoulders, not get into powerlifting.

Jason Wojo also trains DC which is its own program and I am sure his volume matches that.

If I ever train DC, then maybe I will do all of that in one day as well…but it is doubtful.

It is also doubtful that someone is going to use the volume that I do for shoulders and also train chest and triceps on the same day unless that is what they get PAID to do all day.[/quote]

Most people are training like you if there goal is size, and it would be illogical and too time consuming to group the body parts the way DC does if you are using a more traditional volume obviously. Even Yates with pretty low volume was down to 1-2 muscle groups per workout. Chest+biceps, Shoulders+triceps, Back, Legs type split.

855

[quote]Scott M wrote:
As probably the biggest DC fan on this board, I can’t stand when it gets thrown into these discussions as a “SEE… you are wrong!” when clealry it’s a specialized way of training and not how most are doing things.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

I use way more volume than what I saw in that video. It takes me close to an hour just to train shoulders alone as my goal is to build really big shoulders, not get into powerlifting.

Jason Wojo also trains DC which is its own program and I am sure his volume matches that.

If I ever train DC, then maybe I will do all of that in one day as well…but it is doubtful.

It is also doubtful that someone is going to use the volume that I do for shoulders and also train chest and triceps on the same day unless that is what they get PAID to do all day.[/quote]

Most people are training like you if there goal is size, and it would be illogical and too time consuming to group the body parts the way DC does if you are using a more traditional volume obviously. Even Yates with pretty low volume was down to 1-2 muscle groups per workout. Chest+biceps, Shoulders+triceps, Back, Legs type split.[/quote]

Thanks for posting.

856

Also, from Wojo’s own website:

One exercise per body part.

I am not going to knock DC training, but I know for a fact that this is not enough for my to do my shoulders right.

However, I guess this has side tracked us enough seeing as how if I was ONLY doing one single exercise per body part then I could probably do chest, tris and shoulders all in one session…but since that does not work for me and my shoulders are growing fine with what I am doing, there is no point or need.

DC sounds like something to use on a limited basis to me.

857

AHA! You’re busted X! You can’t even do a single pushup because you’re so fat and full of Mc D’s…Pushups= Chest, Triceps and Shoulders, and you said you couldn’t do it, so either you’re a liar or a weak, fat fuck.

Ha! I’m so awesome I use completely irrelevant comparisons to find where you MIGHT be wrong, despite you clearly being more developed than me. Do I win teh internets?

858

Bingo Bango, nothing more annoying to Dante/Doggcrapp is the Jehova’s Witness type thing when people try to talk others into DC training.

What you are doing works obviously, you believe in it… that should be the end of conversation. I’d never try to talk you/others into DC unless you hit a sticking point and were thinking it was what you needed type deal, I wish others would keep it that way.

You already train to/near failure on mostly big moves, you train within your recovery ability, you train for strength… sounds like this program I know lol

859

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Also, from Wojo’s own website:

One exercise per body part.

I am not going to knock DC training, but I know for a fact that this is not enough for my to do my shoulders right.

However, I guess this has side tracked us enough seeing as how if I was ONLY doing one single exercise per body part then I could probably do chest, tris and shoulders all in one session…but since that does not work for me and my shoulders are growing fine with what I am doing, there is no point or need.

DC sounds like something to use on a limited basis to me.[/quote]

FWIW: I used the 2-way variant of DC for years… It worked fine then, but it obviously has it’s limitations when it comes to exercise selection, at least if you’re like me and want to perform well on all exercises.

I’ve done my share of chest+delts+tris -type splits since then, but now I can no longer do that and actually feel good.

I can’t even couple tris with either chest or delts anymore… After my pressing, if I were to lay down on the bench and do heavy extensions behind the head my shoulders would feel really uncomfortable and my strength would be down so much and progression so difficult that it’s just no fun.

And why take chances, anyway…

Some guys like Dusty can train all three groups in one day and even throw in a widowmaker for every muscle-group on the advanced DC variant… Hell, I tried and I totally can’t do it.

There is a 5-way split for DC too, for the really strong guys and people who are dieting and don’t have the work-capacity or whatever, or people not trying to gain another 60 lbs… That’s what I’d use if I were to do DC again… You can do your main exercise plus widowmaker and maybe something extra (say for rear delts or so). Pretty much the same as regular BBing, just with Rest-pause, stretches and an exercise-rotation.

Anyway… It’s separate days for chest, delts and tris for me now… My training has come full circle over the last 2 years. I gave all the fancy stuff a try… Westside, high-frequency training, Max-OT type stuff and what-have-you…
I still feel the most comfortable and do the best with the very same stuff I did from day 1, just that I lift heavier now… Been doing a little less reps in preparation for PLing, and I actually do about an exercise more per bodypart than I used to back in my first 3 or so years of training, but that’s about it.

DC is still the only brandname training system that ever REALLY worked for me. The other “system” is what everyone from jeremy Hoornstra to Ronnie Coleman are/were doing… And that’s what I’m doing again.

All the others have their uses but I never really liked doing them too much, my joints didn’t like them either… The only times I ever came close to getting injured or developed any kind of nagging injury was while following all the big-name programs… Never again.

860

(note: And the only reason I even started experimenting with that stuff was due to the internet. Go figure.)

861

[quote]Scott M wrote:
As probably the biggest DC fan on this board, I can’t stand when it gets thrown into these discussions as a “SEE… you are wrong!” when clealry it’s a specialized way of training and not how most are doing things.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

I use way more volume than what I saw in that video. It takes me close to an hour just to train shoulders alone as my goal is to build really big shoulders, not get into powerlifting.

Jason Wojo also trains DC which is its own program and I am sure his volume matches that.

If I ever train DC, then maybe I will do all of that in one day as well…but it is doubtful.

It is also doubtful that someone is going to use the volume that I do for shoulders and also train chest and triceps on the same day unless that is what they get PAID to do all day.[/quote]

Most people are training like you if there goal is size, and it would be illogical and too time consuming to group the body parts the way DC does if you are using a more traditional volume obviously. Even Yates with pretty low volume was down to 1-2 muscle groups per workout. Chest+biceps, Shoulders+triceps, Back, Legs type split.[/quote]

Of course you’ll have to do less volume per muscle group if you’re doing chest, shoulders and triceps instead of just shoulders, no one is disputing that. Yes most people pursuing size train like X, who the hell said otherwise?

He said training chest shoulders and tris in the same day only works when you’re weak, like that’s some absolute truth, and as usual he was talking out of his ass, dismissing something he never even tried.

Yeah most people don’t train like that, so what? That ain’t the motherfucking point now, is it?

862

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
(note: And the only reason I even started experimenting with that stuff was due to the internet. Go figure.)
[/quote]

Always knew you were a keyboard warrior switching programs every week !

:smiley:

How’s ze token German doing these days ? I ave heard heresy you are getting leaner your crazy guy you !