Pro-Lifer Throws Incendiary Device at PP

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
161

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]Deorum wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:
Deorum, could you just clarify, is the “tear” a rip, as of cloth or paper, or is it the saline liquid exuded from the eyes at certain times of sadness and joy? And if the former, then is the “mast” the equivalent of a “sail,” or is it a mast made of cloth, or perhaps paper? Or, perhaps, mast means cheek and the tear is the tear of sadness rolling down the cheeks of all the arguments you have raped?

Also, since no one else has answered my question, I’ll ask you: Do you believe it should be legal for a woman to smoke, drink, and take all manner of drugs after she learns she has become pregnant? [/quote]

Your genuinely pretty clever you know that?

I would say if she planned on giving birth then she really shouldn’t engage in those activities but to make them illegal is infringing on what I believe to be her rights… If it so happens that the child is hurt because of her careless actions then that is truly a tragedy but then again, children suffer through ALL of their parents manifestations of parental carelessness, drug related or otherwise. The day I support the government telling you what you can put into or take out of your body though… not happening. Very clever question though.[/quote]

Well, you are consistent, I’ll give you that.

Humor me, if you don’t mind. Given that you state above, “children suffer through ALL of their parents manifestations of parental carelessness,” are you saying that parents should also be allowed to do what I stated above after the child is born?

I just want to get clear on this. If I am misunderstanding you please let me know. Are you saying that a parent’s “right” to indulge in the pleasures of her choice actually supercede the rights of her child to care, protection, health, and life?[/quote]

What I am saying is a child knows nothing but his parents care whether it is lack there of or over abundance of. The law does not punish those parents who are too ignorant to feed their child the diet that would have them grow the best; feeding your child a poor diet from a young age will have worse health effects than being born with some nicotine in your system though. What I was getting at is the fact that some parents start abusing their child even before they are born is irrelevant; those same parents will be the ones to treat their children like shit until they are adults and there is nothing we can do about it.

I am saying a women’s right to do what she wants with her body does not end when another pre-human life form takes growth in her body.

You say I am giving women the right to kill; I say you are taking away a women’s right to person - making her body the unwilling host of a parasite she wants nothing to do with.

162

So “the act was never made better.” Exactly! So why not cherish the gift a woman was given and raise the child. Children are products of their environment and NOT from genetics. Ever heard the saying, ‘an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind’?

Where do I justify a violent act? In fact you could even make the rapist pay child support for the life he helped create. Want to think how pissed he would be as he wrote a check for a child he never see’s, every month? lol How would the woman feel as she raises a beautiful person and teaches them how to behave?

[quote]Deorum wrote:

[quote]cvb wrote:

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:

I agree with you cvb! How is a violent act made better by perpetuating said violent act?

[/quote]

Thank you. Exactly.
[/quote]

Violence begets violence… I never said the act was made any better… Only that it can be justified using the very logic you are using to argue against it. In that it is self evident your logic is flawed -_-" But yea okay go on… I’m listening… [/quote]

163

[quote]Cortes wrote:
And one more question: At what point, if any, should a child’s right to protection supercede her mother’s right to self-indulgence? If you could clear up this foggy issue for me it would help me to better understand your position. Maybe.[/quote]

I don’t quite understand this question. Could you rephrase it possibly?

164

[quote]Deorum wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:
And one more question: At what point, if any, should a child’s right to protection supercede her mother’s right to self-indulgence? If you could clear up this foggy issue for me it would help me to better understand your position. Maybe.[/quote]

I don’t quite understand this question. Could you rephrase it possibly? [/quote]

Where do you draw the line between a parent doing what is her “choice” and child abuse. When it is finally time to step in and stop someone and call the act abuse?

165

[quote]Deorum wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Deorum wrote:

[quote]cvb wrote:

[quote]Deorum wrote:

[quote]cvb wrote:

You’re missing the point that the pregnancies do not have to happen. The choice is whether or not to have sex.
[/quote]

So if I rape you and impregnate you can you legally get an abortion? Where does your sex “choice” factor into that question?[/quote]

If you raped me and I became pregnant, I might kill you but not my innocent baby. The baby did nothing wrong. There are sad cases. But it is 9 months of the mother’s life. The baby could be adopted.

The sex choice is to focus on the real problem. Unwanted pregnancies. We don’t have to find parents for all the unwanted babies. The better solution is to prevent the pregnancy.[/quote]

Cool, when somebody pokes a hole in your logic you just ignore it and move on preaching the same hole riddled logic. I get it now. You know the only person who ever “wins” in a debate? The person who actually participates AND maintains the ability to objectively listen to both sides…
[/quote]

Actually you only poked a hole in like .5% of abortions.[/quote]

No I poked a hole .5% of the entire surface area of this argument. But yea that’s just a small tear in the mast of this ship… Ignore the teared logic and keep on sailing that ship -_-"
[/quote]

No, his argument is still entirely valid for 99.5% of all abortions that take place.

166

What is the purpose of sex?
Sexual intercourse is meant to be a form of genetic selection(procreation). For example how many of you have seen the animal shows on television? When these shows go over the mating rituals of some bird, you will usually see the male doing something like a mating call or building a nest. The female then make a decision (based on what she has seen the male doing) to either have sex and mix their genetic make up so that they may potentially improve their species, or not to have sex because the male is weak. So in short the purpose of sex is to create offspring.

Woman’s Choice:
She already made her choice(assuming she was not raped), as to what she wanted to do with her body. Just like the little bird the woman decided that the man she was with was good enough to have kids with. Remember the sole purpose of sex is to create offspring. Although it takes two to tango, more of the responsibility as to the decision of having sex (not the decision of taking care of the child) falls on the woman, it is her physical, emotional, and mental health that is on the line. Also men can leave if they feel like it, women all to often are stuck, which is why the decision falls so heavily on women,they are the most impacted by it.

Unintentional pregnancies:
There is no such thing as an unintentional pregnancy. As an adult if you decide to have sex knowing that the pill, condom, or whatever form of birth control that you use has a failure rate,you can not call it unintentional and use that as an excuse for an abortion. The couple made the decision to have sex knowing they could still get pregnant. Unexpected but not unintentional. There is no such thing as a zero risk Birth Control method. If you take the chance, accept the consequences!

The only circumstance that I can think of that would merit an abortion is in the case of rape. All to often I hear people say that she should keep the child. In this case if a woman decides to keep the child adopt it or abort it, she can not be judged as wrong in any circumstance for people will make the best decisions for themselves. It is easy to say something if you have never gone through it yourself.

So to sum things up. I do not with the current abortion laws. A women should only be allowed to get an abortion if she is raped or if the pregnancy poses a threat to her life( I to remember that at the end of the day there are exceptions to every rule). Sorry I wrote so much, If I did not clarify my viewpoints let me know/ if you disagree and would like to present a different side of the subject, or perhaps there is something I am completely over looking let me know.

167

[quote]Deorum wrote:

No, I will try again. I just showed you that the CHOICE is NOT whether or not to have SEX. I just RAPED your theory, get it? That was a joke. But it is obvious you do not see how the concept of rape destroys what you are saying from the foundation up so I’m just going to let you continue…
[/quote]

No I obviously do not. The woman’s choice to have sex was taken away from her. Sad but it happens. Does not give her the right to murder. The child and the woman are BOTH innocent victims.

The choice was TAKEN AWAY by the rapist.

I am not ignoring the rape victim. I am protecting the child.

“The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father” (Ezekiel 18:20).

“Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin” (Deuteronomy 24:16).

Look at the world around. All the suffering and pain. That’s what you get when man acts as his own god.

168

[quote]Cortes wrote:
Deorum, could you just clarify, is the “tear” a rip, as of cloth or paper, or is it the saline liquid exuded from the eyes at certain times of sadness and joy? And if the former, then is the “mast” the equivalent of a “sail,” or is it a mast made of cloth, or perhaps paper? Or, perhaps, mast means cheek and the tear is the tear of sadness rolling down the cheeks of all the arguments you have raped?

Also, since no one else has answered my question, I’ll ask you: Do you believe it should be legal for a woman to smoke, drink, and take all manner of drugs after she learns she has become pregnant? [/quote]

I consider it child abuse and it should be illegal.

169

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
So “the act was never made better.” Exactly! So why not cherish the gift a woman was given and raise the child. Children are products of their environment and NOT from genetics. Ever heard the saying, ‘an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind’?

Where do I justify a violent act? In fact you could even make the rapist pay child support for the life he helped create. Want to think how pissed he would be as he wrote a check for a child he never see’s, every month? lol How would the woman feel as she raises a beautiful person and teaches them how to behave?

[/quote]

I do like the way you think. The rape laws are so lenient. The idea of 18 years of child support payments is great.

170

[quote]flores87 wrote:
What is the purpose of sex?
Sexual intercourse is meant to be a form of genetic selection(procreation). For example how many of you have seen the animal shows on television? When these shows go over the mating rituals of some bird, you will usually see the male doing something like a mating call or building a nest. The female then make a decision (based on what she has seen the male doing) to either have sex and mix their genetic make up so that they may potentially improve their species, or not to have sex because the male is weak. So in short the purpose of sex is to create offspring.

Woman’s Choice:
She already made her choice(assuming she was not raped), as to what she wanted to do with her body. Just like the little bird the woman decided that the man she was with was good enough to have kids with. Remember the sole purpose of sex is to create offspring. Although it takes two to tango, more of the responsibility as to the decision of having sex (not the decision of taking care of the child) falls on the woman, it is her physical, emotional, and mental health that is on the line. Also men can leave if they feel like it, women all to often are stuck, which is why the decision falls so heavily on women,they are the most impacted by it.

Unintentional pregnancies:
There is no such thing as an unintentional pregnancy. As an adult if you decide to have sex knowing that the pill, condom, or whatever form of birth control that you use has a failure rate,you can not call it unintentional and use that as an excuse for an abortion. The couple made the decision to have sex knowing they could still get pregnant. Unexpected but not unintentional. There is no such thing as a zero risk Birth Control method. If you take the chance, accept the consequences!

The only circumstance that I can think of that would merit an abortion is in the case of rape. All to often I hear people say that she should keep the child. In this case if a woman decides to keep the child adopt it or abort it, she can not be judged as wrong in any circumstance for people will make the best decisions for themselves. It is easy to say something if you have never gone through it yourself.

So to sum things up. I do not with the current abortion laws. A women should only be allowed to get an abortion if she is raped or if the pregnancy poses a threat to her life( I to remember that at the end of the day there are exceptions to every rule). Sorry I wrote so much, If I did not clarify my viewpoints let me know/ if you disagree and would like to present a different side of the subject, or perhaps there is something I am completely over looking let me know.[/quote]

It was a well thought out good argument.

I do agree that a woman has a right to an abortion if her life is threatened. It is self defense. For myself, I would try to save the child first.

It is not about being in the woman’s shoes. Rape is awful. But children are a blessing no matter how they are conceived. I just can’t justify killing a baby over the father’s behavior.

171

The problem with abortion as an ethical issue is that so many people try to make it into a black and white situation, when really it’s a very grey area as to when the embryo/fetus actually becomes a person and it would be wrong to abort it.

I think that drawing a line in the sand at conception isn’t the way, as for several weeks after conception it has no brain, nervous system, or anything to really differentiate it as a human, and so I’m not sure it can be thought of as one anymore than a human tissue culture can, and, as has been previously mentioned, this also removes any possibility of an abortion in the case of something like rape.

Add to that the rights of the mother as to her own body and the fact that there is no real point when the embryo can be considered a person and you have an issue that’s a lot more murky than many people would like it to be. Absolutes are simple, but often wrong.

To all of you who are completely against abortion, I’m curious as to whether you have the same feelings as to the morning after pill and feel that it should be illegal, considering that it prevents the embedding of an already fertilized egg in the womb.

172

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]Deorum wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:
And one more question: At what point, if any, should a child’s right to protection supercede her mother’s right to self-indulgence? If you could clear up this foggy issue for me it would help me to better understand your position. Maybe.[/quote]

I don’t quite understand this question. Could you rephrase it possibly? [/quote]

Where do you draw the line between a parent doing what is her “choice” and child abuse. When it is finally time to step in and stop someone and call the act abuse?[/quote]

Ehhhhhh, I don’t know… lol.

173

[quote]alex789 wrote:
The problem with abortion as an ethical issue is that so many people try to make it into a black and white situation, when really it’s a very grey area as to when the embryo/fetus actually becomes a person and it would be wrong to abort it.

I think that drawing a line in the sand at conception isn’t the way, as for several weeks after conception it has no brain, nervous system, or anything to really differentiate it as a human, and so I’m not sure it can be thought of as one anymore than a human tissue culture can, and, as has been previously mentioned, this also removes any possibility of an abortion in the case of something like rape.

Add to that the rights of the mother as to her own body and the fact that there is no real point when the embryo can be considered a person and you have an issue that’s a lot more murky than many people would like it to be. Absolutes are simple, but often wrong.

To all of you who are completely against abortion, I’m curious as to whether you have the same feelings as to the morning after pill and feel that it should be illegal, considering that it prevents the embedding of an already fertilized egg in the womb.

[/quote]
I’ll cover this two ways. One with my religious beliefs and one way science alone.

If it hasn’t been obvious, I am a Catholic. A devout Catholic. I follow the Church teachings 100%. So this is my opinion based on my beliefs. I believe everyone has a soul. I doubt that God would wait until the 2nd trimester to give you a soul. Your soul exist at conception.

Jeremiah 1:5 “I knew you before I formed you in your mother’s womb. Before you were born I set you apart and appointed you as my prophet to the nations.”

From a scientific stand point. If we want to go by when the baby is developed, we are still allowing abortions when the woman is way too far along. I’ll cover my views on development later tonight. I am out of time. I am heading to mass.

I am against the morning after pill and all other birth control that is an abortifacient.

174

So doerum, you claim on page 5 of this thread -

“Cool, when somebody pokes a hole in your logic you just ignore it and move on preaching the same hole riddled logic. I get it now. You know the only person who ever “wins” in a debate? The person who actually participates AND maintains the ability to objectively listen to both sides…”

So again how are YOU different? I quoted our discussion and you are proceeding to ignore my point on the table. Are you planning on winning this debate? By ignoring points brought to you?

I will give you the same point with different adjectives so it might become easier to understand. I agree that rape is one of the worst crimes imaginable. The reason? Because the choice was taken away from the woman, by force none the less!! Please tell me how the problems and trauma of a rape is made better by the continuation of an activity that is even worse than the original act?

When pregnancies are terminated early there is one method most commonly used these days. Two pills are given, a mifepristone and misoprostol pill. The pregnancy ends because the child will literally starve to death from lack of nutrients and the environment is then inhospitable due to progesterone levels crashing. If the pregnancy is terminated after a number of weeks then an abortion procedure is necessary. Have you watched an ultrasound of an abortion? The child is literally torn apart limb from limb!! I sure as hell would not enjoy being torn apart and the child feels every moment of the act. Again how is the problems associated with a violent act made better by another even worse activity?

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
So “the act was never made better.” Exactly! So why not cherish the gift a woman was given and raise the child. Children are products of their environment and NOT from genetics. Ever heard the saying, ‘an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind’?

Where do I justify a violent act? In fact you could even make the rapist pay child support for the life he helped create. Want to think how pissed he would be as he wrote a check for a child he never see’s, every month? lol How would the woman feel as she raises a beautiful person and teaches them how to behave?
[/quote]

[quote]Deorum wrote:

[quote]cvb wrote:

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:

I agree with you cvb! How is a violent act made better by perpetuating said violent act?

[/quote]

Thank you. Exactly.
[/quote]

Violence begets violence… I never said the act was made any better… Only that it can be justified using the very logic you are using to argue against it. In that it is self evident your logic is flawed -_-" But yea okay go on… I’m listening… [/quote]

175

[quote]flores87 wrote:
What is the purpose of sex?
Sexual intercourse is meant to be a form of genetic selection(procreation). For example how many of you have seen the animal shows on television? When these shows go over the mating rituals of some bird, you will usually see the male doing something like a mating call or building a nest. The female then make a decision (based on what she has seen the male doing) to either have sex and mix their genetic make up so that they may potentially improve their species, or not to have sex because the male is weak. So in short the purpose of sex is to create offspring.

Woman’s Choice:
She already made her choice(assuming she was not raped), as to what she wanted to do with her body. Just like the little bird the woman decided that the man she was with was good enough to have kids with. Remember the sole purpose of sex is to create offspring. Although it takes two to tango, more of the responsibility as to the decision of having sex (not the decision of taking care of the child) falls on the woman, it is her physical, emotional, and mental health that is on the line. Also men can leave if they feel like it, women all to often are stuck, which is why the decision falls so heavily on women,they are the most impacted by it.

Unintentional pregnancies:
There is no such thing as an unintentional pregnancy. As an adult if you decide to have sex knowing that the pill, condom, or whatever form of birth control that you use has a failure rate,you can not call it unintentional and use that as an excuse for an abortion. The couple made the decision to have sex knowing they could still get pregnant. Unexpected but not unintentional. There is no such thing as a zero risk Birth Control method. If you take the chance, accept the consequences!

The only circumstance that I can think of that would merit an abortion is in the case of rape. All to often I hear people say that she should keep the child. In this case if a woman decides to keep the child adopt it or abort it, she can not be judged as wrong in any circumstance for people will make the best decisions for themselves. It is easy to say something if you have never gone through it yourself.

So to sum things up. I do not with the current abortion laws. A women should only be allowed to get an abortion if she is raped or if the pregnancy poses a threat to her life( I to remember that at the end of the day there are exceptions to every rule). Sorry I wrote so much, If I did not clarify my viewpoints let me know/ if you disagree and would like to present a different side of the subject, or perhaps there is something I am completely over looking let me know.[/quote]

Your whole premise is flawed.

The fact that you state that the whole point of sex is sexual reproduction does not make it so, especially not in humans.

176

Alex, the act of abortion is horrible for many reasons! I will not even say it is wrong for ethical reasons. I respect the ethics of other people and I will never force those choices upon someone else. This life is about ‘choice’ in my eyes. The abortion topic is wrong because of simple biology. If you disagree with me, then please define the unborn using universally accepted science -

[quote]alex789 wrote:
The problem with abortion as an ethical issue is that so many people try to make it into a black and white situation, when really it’s a very grey area as to when the embryo/fetus actually becomes a person and it would be wrong to abort it.

I think that drawing a line in the sand at conception isn’t the way, as for several weeks after conception it has no brain, nervous system, or anything to really differentiate it as a human, and so I’m not sure it can be thought of as one anymore than a human tissue culture can, and, as has been previously mentioned, this also removes any possibility of an abortion in the case of something like rape.

Add to that the rights of the mother as to her own body and the fact that there is no real point when the embryo can be considered a person and you have an issue that’s a lot more murky than many people would like it to be. Absolutes are simple, but often wrong.

To all of you who are completely against abortion, I’m curious as to whether you have the same feelings as to the morning after pill and feel that it should be illegal, considering that it prevents the embedding of an already fertilized egg in the womb.

[/quote]

177

I would say that a life begins with the parents decision to have sex. As I stated earlier the purpose of sex is to create children. So if two people decide to have sex they are choosing to create children. I know it takes time for the fetus to fully develop, however the child’s parents decided to mix their genetic material to create this life. It all starts with the parents decision so the moment the sperm penetrates the egg and the development process begins, this is where I believe a human life begins.

178

cvb I ask a simple question, as an outsider who can never experience the trails and joys of pregnancy. Why not keep the child even with the risk of the mother dieing? How would a child feel knowing that their mother laid down her own life so the child could experience this world?! I know I would feel beyond honored!! Do not forget the woman HAS had a chance to live in this world. In addition, who knows what will actually happen? I KNOW Dr.'s are often wrong. They were mistaken about me and my future

<-----avatar ; )

[quote]cvb wrote: …
I do agree that a woman has a right to an abortion if her life is threatened. It is self defense. For myself, I would try to save the child first.
… [/quote]

179

[quote]flores87 wrote:
I would say that a life begins with the parents decision to have sex. As I stated earlier the purpose of sex is to create children. So if two people decide to have sex they are choosing to create children. I know it takes time for the fetus to fully develop, however the child’s parents decided to mix their genetic material to create this life. It all starts with the parents decision so the moment the sperm penetrates the egg and the development process begins, this is where I believe a human life begins. [/quote]

I give you:

the Bonobo!

Who, incidentally, fucks like a demented rabid on speed, for all kinds of reasons, with procreation being the least of his worries.

180

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]cvb wrote:

[quote]byukid wrote:
Wait, natural family planning as in abstinence? How could that have a failure rate?

Or are you talking rhythm method? Because I was just in a pre-marital class that said the rhythm method, if followed to 100% has a 20% failure rate. [/quote]

NFP is more complex than the rhythm method. It does require days of abstinence. How many days depends on the woman’s cycle and other factors.
[/quote]

Plus it’s awesome to be involved in the process of determining what days, a lot of intimacy is developed with the communication about her body, even if it is before marriage (of course leading up to marriage).[/quote]

Sex outside of marriage you say.[/quote]

How is understanding when your future wife is ovulating sex outside marriage? It’s part of marriage prep.