[quote]byukid wrote:
Wait, natural family planning as in abstinence? How could that have a failure rate?
Or are you talking rhythm method? Because I was just in a pre-marital class that said the rhythm method, if followed to 100% has a 20% failure rate. [/quote]
NFP is more complex than the rhythm method. It does require days of abstinence. How many days depends on the woman’s cycle and other factors.
[quote]cvb wrote:
[quote]byukid wrote:
Wait, natural family planning as in abstinence? How could that have a failure rate?
Or are you talking rhythm method? Because I was just in a pre-marital class that said the rhythm method, if followed to 100% has a 20% failure rate. [/quote]
NFP is more complex than the rhythm method. It does require days of abstinence. How many days depends on the woman’s cycle and other factors.
[/quote]
Plus it’s awesome to be involved in the process of determining what days, a lot of intimacy is developed with the communication about her body, even if it is before marriage (of course leading up to marriage).
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]cvb wrote:
[quote]byukid wrote:
Wait, natural family planning as in abstinence? How could that have a failure rate?
Or are you talking rhythm method? Because I was just in a pre-marital class that said the rhythm method, if followed to 100% has a 20% failure rate. [/quote]
NFP is more complex than the rhythm method. It does require days of abstinence. How many days depends on the woman’s cycle and other factors.
[/quote]
Plus it’s awesome to be involved in the process of determining what days, a lot of intimacy is developed with the communication about her body, even if it is before marriage (of course leading up to marriage).[/quote]
Sex outside of marriage you say.
Impressive stuff that mak, actually over thirteen thousand posts of powerful and influential facts. Even with figures backed by credible sources. Funny how a lil guy from kiwi thinks he knows so much.
He, nor anyone else who is pro choice can define the unborn.
Yet they think they have the right to kill a life in the way. Amazing!!
[quote]Makavali wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]cvb wrote:
[quote]byukid wrote:
Wait, natural family planning as in abstinence? How could that have a failure rate?
Or are you talking rhythm method? Because I was just in a pre-marital class that said the rhythm method, if followed to 100% has a 20% failure rate. [/quote]
NFP is more complex than the rhythm method. It does require days of abstinence. How many days depends on the woman’s cycle and other factors.
[/quote]
Plus it’s awesome to be involved in the process of determining what days, a lot of intimacy is developed with the communication about her body, even if it is before marriage (of course leading up to marriage).[/quote]
Sex outside of marriage you say.[/quote]
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Plus it’s awesome to be involved in the process of determining what days, a lot of intimacy is developed with the communication about her body, even if it is before marriage (of course leading up to marriage).[/quote]
Just studying and learning NFP before marriage not practicing 
You are right. Plus, the intimacy and the respect for each other has many benefits.
http://www.physiciansforlife.org/content/view/193/36/
The results presented from the three surveys analyzed revealed that compared to other women in general and to Catholic women of similar age, NFP users:
* have a dramatically low (0.2%) divorce rate;
* experience happier marriages;
* are happier and more satisfied in their everyday lives;
* have considerably more marital relations;
* share a deeper intimacy with spouse than those who contracept;
* realize a deeper level of communication with spouse;
* have relatively large families with many children;
* are appreciably more religious and attend church more often;
* incorporate prayer more in their daily lives;
* rely strongly on the teachings of the Church, the Bible and Almighty God;
* are personally happier;
* have strong traditional, social, and moral views;
* preserve the family unit more responsibly than the other groups;.
* are unlikely to have ever had an abortion;
* are unlikely to have ever cohabitated;
* are unlikely to work full time;
*
* are unlikely to be supportive of and to engage in sex outside of marriage;
Lower Divorce Rate
[quote]cvb wrote:
[quote]Deorum wrote:
[quote]cvb wrote:
You’re missing the point that the pregnancies do not have to happen. The choice is whether or not to have sex.
[/quote]
So if I rape you and impregnate you can you legally get an abortion? Where does your sex “choice” factor into that question?[/quote]
If you raped me and I became pregnant, I might kill you but not my innocent baby. The baby did nothing wrong. There are sad cases. But it is 9 months of the mother’s life. The baby could be adopted.
The sex choice is to focus on the real problem. Unwanted pregnancies. We don’t have to find parents for all the unwanted babies. The better solution is to prevent the pregnancy.[/quote]
Cool, when somebody pokes a hole in your logic you just ignore it and move on preaching the same hole riddled logic. I get it now. You know the only person who ever “wins” in a debate? The person who actually participates AND maintains the ability to objectively listen to both sides…
[quote]Deorum wrote:
[quote]cvb wrote:
[quote]Deorum wrote:
[quote]cvb wrote:
You’re missing the point that the pregnancies do not have to happen. The choice is whether or not to have sex.
[/quote]
So if I rape you and impregnate you can you legally get an abortion? Where does your sex “choice” factor into that question?[/quote]
If you raped me and I became pregnant, I might kill you but not my innocent baby. The baby did nothing wrong. There are sad cases. But it is 9 months of the mother’s life. The baby could be adopted.
The sex choice is to focus on the real problem. Unwanted pregnancies. We don’t have to find parents for all the unwanted babies. The better solution is to prevent the pregnancy.[/quote]
Cool, when somebody pokes a hole in your logic you just ignore it and move on preaching the same hole riddled logic. I get it now. You know the only person who ever “wins” in a debate? The person who actually participates AND maintains the ability to objectively listen to both sides…
[/quote]
Actually you only poked a hole in like .5% of abortions.
Deorum are YOU going to claim that you will objectively listen to any counter arguments which are made to you? How about answering the below-
Please use universally accepted science and define the unborn.
[quote]Deorum wrote:
[quote]cvb wrote:
[quote]Deorum wrote:
[quote]cvb wrote:
You’re missing the point that the pregnancies do not have to happen. The choice is whether or not to have sex.
[/quote]
So if I rape you and impregnate you can you legally get an abortion? Where does your sex “choice” factor into that question?[/quote]
If you raped me and I became pregnant, I might kill you but not my innocent baby. The baby did nothing wrong. There are sad cases. But it is 9 months of the mother’s life. The baby could be adopted.
The sex choice is to focus on the real problem. Unwanted pregnancies. We don’t have to find parents for all the unwanted babies. The better solution is to prevent the pregnancy.[/quote]
Cool, when somebody pokes a hole in your logic you just ignore it and move on preaching the same hole riddled logic. I get it now. You know the only person who ever “wins” in a debate? The person who actually participates AND maintains the ability to objectively listen to both sides…
[/quote]
[quote]Deorum wrote:
[quote]cvb wrote:
[quote]Deorum wrote:
[quote]cvb wrote:
You’re missing the point that the pregnancies do not have to happen. The choice is whether or not to have sex.
[/quote]
So if I rape you and impregnate you can you legally get an abortion? Where does your sex “choice” factor into that question?[/quote]
If you raped me and I became pregnant, I might kill you but not my innocent baby. The baby did nothing wrong. There are sad cases. But it is 9 months of the mother’s life. The baby could be adopted.
The sex choice is to focus on the real problem. Unwanted pregnancies. We don’t have to find parents for all the unwanted babies. The better solution is to prevent the pregnancy.[/quote]
Cool, when somebody pokes a hole in your logic you just ignore it and move on preaching the same hole riddled logic. I get it now. You know the only person who ever “wins” in a debate? The person who actually participates AND maintains the ability to objectively listen to both sides…
[/quote]
I think I did answer your question. I believe that women who are raped should not be allowed to have abortions. It is still murder. Sometimes bad things happen to people and they unfortunately have to suffer the consequences. It does not allow them to murder. The amount of abortions due to rape is very small. If you want to believe that all these babies being slaughtered is because the women is a victim, fine. But let’s get back to reality.
And I have come no where near preaching. I didn’t quote the bible once or give my religious beliefs except for contraception. Which I stated that I was against but wouldn’t make it illegal.
Now to get preachy…
From one of my favorite saints.
Saint John Vianney said to a mother of a large family, who was expecting another child, he said with fatherly kindness and consideration: “Be comforted, my child. If you only knew the women who will go to Hell because they did not bring into the world the children they should have given to it.”
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Actually you only poked a hole in like .5% of abortions.[/quote]
I knew it was small.
Alan Keyes says it better than me.
In February 2000 presidential candidate Alan Keyes addressed 120 middle school students in Detroit. A thirteen-year-old girl asked if his position on abortion included making an exception for rape. He spoke of the pain of rape, then said, â??But I donâ??t believe it is right to take that pain and actually make it worse. And to the burden of that rape down through the years, if that abortion takes place, do you know what Iâ??m adding if I let you have an abortion? Iâ??m adding the burden of that abortion. And at some point, the truth of God that is written on your heart comes back to you. And youâ??re wounded by that truth."
One feminist group says, â??Some women have reported suffering from the trauma of abortion long after the rape trauma has faded.â?? It is hard to imagine a worse therapy for a woman who has been raped than to add the guilt and turmoil of having her child killed. Even if we convince ourselves and her that it isnâ??t a real child or even her child, some day she will realize that it was. Those who advised abortion will not be there then to help carry her pain and guilt.
[quote]cvb wrote:
[quote]Deorum wrote:
[quote]cvb wrote:
[quote]Deorum wrote:
[quote]cvb wrote:
You’re missing the point that the pregnancies do not have to happen. The choice is whether or not to have sex.
[/quote]
So if I rape you and impregnate you can you legally get an abortion? Where does your sex “choice” factor into that question?[/quote]
If you raped me and I became pregnant, I might kill you but not my innocent baby. The baby did nothing wrong. There are sad cases. But it is 9 months of the mother’s life. The baby could be adopted.
The sex choice is to focus on the real problem. Unwanted pregnancies. We don’t have to find parents for all the unwanted babies. The better solution is to prevent the pregnancy.[/quote]
Cool, when somebody pokes a hole in your logic you just ignore it and move on preaching the same hole riddled logic. I get it now. You know the only person who ever “wins” in a debate? The person who actually participates AND maintains the ability to objectively listen to both sides…
[/quote]
[/quote]
I agree with you cvb! How is a violent act made better by perpetuating said violent act?
[quote]cvb wrote:
I think I did answer your question. I believe that women who are raped should not be allowed to have abortions. It is still murder. Sometimes bad things happen to people and they unfortunately have to suffer the consequences. It does not allow them to murder. The amount of abortions due to rape is very small. If you want to believe that all these babies being slaughtered is because the women is a victim, fine. But let’s get back to reality.
And I have come no where near preaching. I didn’t quote the bible once or give my religious beliefs except for contraception. Which I stated that I was against but wouldn’t make it illegal.
Now to get preachy…
From one of my favorite saints.
Saint John Vianney said to a mother of a large family, who was expecting another child, he said with fatherly kindness and consideration: “Be comforted, my child. If you only knew the women who will go to Hell because they did not bring into the world the children they should have given to it.” [/quote]
[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
I agree with you cvb! How is a violent act made better by perpetuating said violent act?
[/quote]
Thank you. Exactly.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]Deorum wrote:
[quote]cvb wrote:
[quote]Deorum wrote:
[quote]cvb wrote:
You’re missing the point that the pregnancies do not have to happen. The choice is whether or not to have sex.
[/quote]
So if I rape you and impregnate you can you legally get an abortion? Where does your sex “choice” factor into that question?[/quote]
If you raped me and I became pregnant, I might kill you but not my innocent baby. The baby did nothing wrong. There are sad cases. But it is 9 months of the mother’s life. The baby could be adopted.
The sex choice is to focus on the real problem. Unwanted pregnancies. We don’t have to find parents for all the unwanted babies. The better solution is to prevent the pregnancy.[/quote]
Cool, when somebody pokes a hole in your logic you just ignore it and move on preaching the same hole riddled logic. I get it now. You know the only person who ever “wins” in a debate? The person who actually participates AND maintains the ability to objectively listen to both sides…
[/quote]
Actually you only poked a hole in like .5% of abortions.[/quote]
No I poked a hole .5% of the entire surface area of this argument. But yea that’s just a small tear in the mast of this ship… Ignore the teared logic and keep on sailing that ship -_-"
[quote]cvb wrote:
[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
I agree with you cvb! How is a violent act made better by perpetuating said violent act?
[/quote]
Thank you. Exactly.
[/quote]
Violence begets violence… I never said the act was made any better… Only that it can be justified using the very logic you are using to argue against it. In that it is self evident your logic is flawed -_-" But yea okay go on… I’m listening…
[quote]Deorum wrote:
No I poked a hole .5% of the entire surface area of this argument. But yea that’s just a small tear in the mast of this ship… Ignore the teared logic and keep on sailing that ship -_-"
[/quote]
I’ll try again. The choice is whether or not to have sex. There is no choice when it comes to abortion. It is MURDER. The choice was NOT taken away by the government or by me. The choice was taken away by the rapist. Yes - her choice was taken away. Life sometimes sucks. Life is not fair. When you lose you choice or your freedom, it does not give you the right to murder.
You are the one that is not listening. Not me.
I notice how you really don’t care what is best for the woman. You just want her to have a right to kill.
[quote]cvb wrote:
I’ll try again. The choice is whether or not to have sex. [/quote]
No, I will try again. I just showed you that the CHOICE is NOT whether or not to have SEX. I just RAPED your theory, get it? That was a joke. But it is obvious you do not see how the concept of rape destroys what you are saying from the foundation up so I’m just going to let you continue…
“It is your choice whether or not to have sex even if I rape you! I get it now!”
Or
“The choice is whether or not to have sex and we ignore rape victims because they are just a small tear in this mast of bullshit. I get it now!”
[quote]cvb wrote:
I notice how you really don’t care what is best for the woman. You just want her to have a right to kill. [/quote]
I believe man is his own god, what he or she does with his or her own body is entirely up to them. If this involves removing an unwanted parasitic growth from your body that might one day become a “human” then so be it. Weather I like it or not it is your CHOICE.
Deorum, could you just clarify, is the “tear” a rip, as of cloth or paper, or is it the saline liquid exuded from the eyes at certain times of sadness and joy? And if the former, then is the “mast” the equivalent of a “sail,” or is it a mast made of cloth, or perhaps paper? Or, perhaps, mast means cheek and the tear is the tear of sadness rolling down the cheeks of all the arguments you have raped?
Also, since no one else has answered my question, I’ll ask you: Do you believe it should be legal for a woman to smoke, drink, and take all manner of drugs after she learns she has become pregnant?
[quote]Cortes wrote:
Deorum, could you just clarify, is the “tear” a rip, as of cloth or paper, or is it the saline liquid exuded from the eyes at certain times of sadness and joy? And if the former, then is the “mast” the equivalent of a “sail,” or is it a mast made of cloth, or perhaps paper? Or, perhaps, mast means cheek and the tear is the tear of sadness rolling down the cheeks of all the arguments you have raped?
Also, since no one else has answered my question, I’ll ask you: Do you believe it should be legal for a woman to smoke, drink, and take all manner of drugs after she learns she has become pregnant? [/quote]
Your genuinely pretty clever you know that?
I would say if she planned on giving birth then she really shouldn’t engage in those activities but to make them illegal is infringing on what I believe to be her rights… If it so happens that the child is hurt because of her careless actions then that is truly a tragedy but then again, children suffer through ALL of their parents manifestations of parental carelessness, drug related or otherwise. The day I support the government telling you what you can put into or take out of your body though… not happening. Very clever question though.
[quote]Deorum wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
Deorum, could you just clarify, is the “tear” a rip, as of cloth or paper, or is it the saline liquid exuded from the eyes at certain times of sadness and joy? And if the former, then is the “mast” the equivalent of a “sail,” or is it a mast made of cloth, or perhaps paper? Or, perhaps, mast means cheek and the tear is the tear of sadness rolling down the cheeks of all the arguments you have raped?
Also, since no one else has answered my question, I’ll ask you: Do you believe it should be legal for a woman to smoke, drink, and take all manner of drugs after she learns she has become pregnant? [/quote]
Your genuinely pretty clever you know that?
I would say if she planned on giving birth then she really shouldn’t engage in those activities but to make them illegal is infringing on what I believe to be her rights… If it so happens that the child is hurt because of her careless actions then that is truly a tragedy but then again, children suffer through ALL of their parents manifestations of parental carelessness, drug related or otherwise. The day I support the government telling you what you can put into or take out of your body though… not happening. Very clever question though.[/quote]
Well, you are consistent, I’ll give you that.
Humor me, if you don’t mind. Given that you state above, “children suffer through ALL of their parents manifestations of parental carelessness,” are you saying that parents should also be allowed to do what I stated above after the child is born?
I just want to get clear on this. If I am misunderstanding you please let me know. Are you saying that a parent’s “right” to indulge in the pleasures of her choice actually supercede the rights of her child to care, protection, health, and life?
And one more question: At what point, if any, should a child’s right to protection supercede her mother’s right to self-indulgence? If you could clear up this foggy issue for me it would help me to better understand your position. Maybe.