Pro-Lifer Throws Incendiary Device at PP

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
181

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
cvb I ask a simple question, as an outsider who can never experience the trails and joys of pregnancy. Why not keep the child even with the risk of the mother dieing? How would a child feel knowing that their mother laid down her own life so the child could experience this world?! I know I would feel beyond honored!! Do not forget the woman HAS had a chance to live in this world. In addition, who knows what will actually happen? I KNOW Dr.'s are often wrong. They were mistaken about me and my future

<-----avatar ; )

[quote]cvb wrote: …
I do agree that a woman has a right to an abortion if her life is threatened. It is self defense. For myself, I would try to save the child first.
… [/quote]
[/quote]

I had difficult pregnancies. Two ended with emergency c-sections and the other two were scheduled c-sections. I told the doctors and husband if they had to choose, save the baby. I would be willing to die for one of my children but I can not force another woman to die for their child. I feel it is self defense. When my husband disagreed with me, he felt that I should live for the other children, I told him the same thing. I had already had a full life. I am not sure if he would have followed my wishes but I hope that he would. We ended the conversation with him just saying that he would never have to decide.

Doctors are often wrong. Both with the dangers to the woman and the health of the baby. Many have not listen and both mom and baby were fine.

I listen to my doctor and husband when pregnant with my 4th child. 4 major surgeries (c-sections) in 5 years was very tough on my body. The recovery for my 4th child was extremely difficult. Plus I had gestational diabetes (had to give myself shots) and high blood pressure during the pregnancies. The doctor did not want me to have more children. I had a tubal ligation. I think it destroyed me in many ways. I went against my religion. I recently talked to the priest about getting reversed. He said that I was forgiven and did not have to reverse it. If I decided to do it anyway that it had to be a decision between my husband, doctor and me. Well, my husband said no way that it was too dangerous for me to have more children. I am going to ask my doctor at my next appointment. But I doubt he would be willing to reverse it. I am sure that I could find a doctor that would. The problem is that I can not go against my husband. It just makes me sad.

I hope the doctor’s were mistaken and you are fully recovered. I haven’t been on this website for a few years so am not familiar with most of the members.

182

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
Please tell me how the problems and trauma of a rape is made better by the continuation of an activity that is even worse than the original act?
[/quote]

But I already responded to that question in a different word form. It doesn’t make the act any better, however it can be justified. Ironically it can be justified using the very logic you are using to argue against it; you are saying because the women decides to have sex she assumes the responsibility of parenthood. Using this logic if she doesn’t choose to have sex she doesn’t assume the responsibility of parenthood and abortion becomes justified for her. I wouldn’t use this logic at all but I cannot see how those using it can overlook that gaping flaw.

183

[quote]flores87 wrote:
she can not be judged as wrong in any circumstance for people will make the best decisions for themselves.[/quote]

Why can’t we not judge her, and do people really make the best decisions for themselves?

184

[quote]cvb wrote:

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
So “the act was never made better.” Exactly! So why not cherish the gift a woman was given and raise the child. Children are products of their environment and NOT from genetics. Ever heard the saying, ‘an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind’?

Where do I justify a violent act? In fact you could even make the rapist pay child support for the life he helped create. Want to think how pissed he would be as he wrote a check for a child he never see’s, every month? lol How would the woman feel as she raises a beautiful person and teaches them how to behave?

[/quote]

I do like the way you think. The rape laws are so lenient. The idea of 18 years of child support payments is great.[/quote]

I don’t know about that, for the safety of the mother and child. Although I guess you could send it through a government agency so that the rapist wouldn’t be able to find where they lived.

185

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]flores87 wrote:
What is the purpose of sex?
Sexual intercourse is meant to be a form of genetic selection(procreation). For example how many of you have seen the animal shows on television? When these shows go over the mating rituals of some bird, you will usually see the male doing something like a mating call or building a nest. The female then make a decision (based on what she has seen the male doing) to either have sex and mix their genetic make up so that they may potentially improve their species, or not to have sex because the male is weak. So in short the purpose of sex is to create offspring.

Woman’s Choice:
She already made her choice(assuming she was not raped), as to what she wanted to do with her body. Just like the little bird the woman decided that the man she was with was good enough to have kids with. Remember the sole purpose of sex is to create offspring. Although it takes two to tango, more of the responsibility as to the decision of having sex (not the decision of taking care of the child) falls on the woman, it is her physical, emotional, and mental health that is on the line. Also men can leave if they feel like it, women all to often are stuck, which is why the decision falls so heavily on women,they are the most impacted by it.

Unintentional pregnancies:
There is no such thing as an unintentional pregnancy. As an adult if you decide to have sex knowing that the pill, condom, or whatever form of birth control that you use has a failure rate,you can not call it unintentional and use that as an excuse for an abortion. The couple made the decision to have sex knowing they could still get pregnant. Unexpected but not unintentional. There is no such thing as a zero risk Birth Control method. If you take the chance, accept the consequences!

The only circumstance that I can think of that would merit an abortion is in the case of rape. All to often I hear people say that she should keep the child. In this case if a woman decides to keep the child adopt it or abort it, she can not be judged as wrong in any circumstance for people will make the best decisions for themselves. It is easy to say something if you have never gone through it yourself.

So to sum things up. I do not with the current abortion laws. A women should only be allowed to get an abortion if she is raped or if the pregnancy poses a threat to her life( I to remember that at the end of the day there are exceptions to every rule). Sorry I wrote so much, If I did not clarify my viewpoints let me know/ if you disagree and would like to present a different side of the subject, or perhaps there is something I am completely over looking let me know.[/quote]

Your whole premise is flawed.

The fact that you state that the whole point of sex is sexual reproduction does not make it so, especially not in humans.

[/quote]

Although I disagree with what this dude said on some points, the purpose of coitus is two fold, procreation and bonding. Nature of man, can’t argue with that.

186

[quote]cvb wrote:
I do agree that a woman has a right to an abortion if her life is threatened. It is self defense. For myself, I would try to save the child first.
[/quote]

Negative, abortions are always wrong.

187

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
cvb I ask a simple question, as an outsider who can never experience the trails and joys of pregnancy. Why not keep the child even with the risk of the mother dieing? How would a child feel knowing that their mother laid down her own life so the child could experience this world?! I know I would feel beyond honored!! Do not forget the woman HAS had a chance to live in this world. In addition, who knows what will actually happen? I KNOW Dr.'s are often wrong. They were mistaken about me and my future

<-----avatar ; )

[quote]cvb wrote: …
I do agree that a woman has a right to an abortion if her life is threatened. It is self defense. For myself, I would try to save the child first.
… [/quote]
[/quote]

Even though it is a great sacrifice for a mother to put herself in a position of risk to give birth to her child, it is definitely not obligatory for her to do so. However, abortion is not the solution.

188

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]flores87 wrote:
I would say that a life begins with the parents decision to have sex. As I stated earlier the purpose of sex is to create children. So if two people decide to have sex they are choosing to create children. I know it takes time for the fetus to fully develop, however the child’s parents decided to mix their genetic material to create this life. It all starts with the parents decision so the moment the sperm penetrates the egg and the development process begins, this is where I believe a human life begins. [/quote]

I give you:

the Bonobo!

Who, incidentally, fucks like a demented rabid on speed, for all kinds of reasons, with procreation being the least of his worries.

[/quote]

Nature of Man is not the savage or beast, sorry orion.

189

I feel very saddened by your story, yet you stood by your convictions and I applaud you for that. I believe many women would not behave the same way. In fact much respect is given to you. Thank you for you perspective.

One more little question, have you thought about adoption? I ask because for years I thought I always wanted my own children yet I have the easier of the two jobs, by FAR! Then after spending a number of years alone I met an absolutely incredible girl and she is totally against having children. Simply because of all the children waiting to be adopted. After just a short period of self reflection I decided that adopting kids we happen soon after we marry. Just wondering about your thoughts because we share a HUGE similarity in regards to abortion = ]

[quote]cvb wrote:

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
cvb I ask a simple question, as an outsider who can never experience the trails and joys of pregnancy. Why not keep the child even with the risk of the mother dieing? How would a child feel knowing that their mother laid down her own life so the child could experience this world?! I know I would feel beyond honored!! Do not forget the woman HAS had a chance to live in this world. In addition, who knows what will actually happen? I KNOW Dr.'s are often wrong. They were mistaken about me and my future

<-----avatar ; )

[quote]cvb wrote: …
I do agree that a woman has a right to an abortion if her life is threatened. It is self defense. For myself, I would try to save the child first.
… [/quote]
[/quote]

I had difficult pregnancies. Two ended with emergency c-sections and the other two were scheduled c-sections. I told the doctors and husband if they had to choose, save the baby. I would be willing to die for one of my children but I can not force another woman to die for their child. I feel it is self defense. When my husband disagreed with me, he felt that I should live for the other children, I told him the same thing. I had already had a full life. I am not sure if he would have followed my wishes but I hope that he would. We ended the conversation with him just saying that he would never have to decide.

Doctors are often wrong. Both with the dangers to the woman and the health of the baby. Many have not listen and both mom and baby were fine.

I listen to my doctor and husband when pregnant with my 4th child. 4 major surgeries (c-sections) in 5 years was very tough on my body. The recovery for my 4th child was extremely difficult. Plus I had gestational diabetes (had to give myself shots) and high blood pressure during the pregnancies. The doctor did not want me to have more children. I had a tubal ligation. I think it destroyed me in many ways. I went against my religion. I recently talked to the priest about getting reversed. He said that I was forgiven and did not have to reverse it. If I decided to do it anyway that it had to be a decision between my husband, doctor and me. Well, my husband said no way that it was too dangerous for me to have more children. I am going to ask my doctor at my next appointment. But I doubt he would be willing to reverse it. I am sure that I could find a doctor that would. The problem is that I can not go against my husband. It just makes me sad.

I hope the doctor’s were mistaken and you are fully recovered. I haven’t been on this website for a few years so am not familiar with most of the members. [/quote]

190

[quote]alex789 wrote:
The problem with abortion as an ethical issue is that so many people try to make it into a black and white situation, when really it’s a very grey area as to when the embryo/fetus actually becomes a person and it would be wrong to abort it.

I think that drawing a line in the sand at conception isn’t the way, as for several weeks after conception it has no brain, nervous system, or anything to really differentiate it as a human, and so I’m not sure it can be thought of as one anymore than a human tissue culture can, and, as has been previously mentioned, this also removes any possibility of an abortion in the case of something like rape.

Add to that the rights of the mother as to her own body and the fact that there is no real point when the embryo can be considered a person and you have an issue that’s a lot more murky than many people would like it to be. Absolutes are simple, but often wrong.

To all of you who are completely against abortion, I’m curious as to whether you have the same feelings as to the morning after pill and feel that it should be illegal, considering that it prevents the embedding of an already fertilized egg in the womb.

[/quote]

We could argue all day where to draw the line in the sand. Most would agree that many abortions right now are done when the women is way too far along.

I look at a life starting at conception. The changes the babies makes while in the womb are amazing. If I did not believe in God, I would have just as hard of a time determining at what point can you no longer kill the child. Each day the fetus changes. The baby starts developing the moment the egg and sperm are joined. I just can’t justify abortion even the day after sex.

191

So you are arguing for the number of less than one percent of the total?

[quote]Deorum wrote:

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
Please tell me how the problems and trauma of a rape is made better by the continuation of an activity that is even worse than the original act?
[/quote]

But I already responded to that question in a different word form. It doesn’t make the act any better, however it can be justified. Ironically it can be justified using the very logic you are using to argue against it; you are saying because the women decides to have sex she assumes the responsibility of parenthood. Using this logic if she doesn’t choose to have sex she doesn’t assume the responsibility of parenthood and abortion becomes justified for her. I wouldn’t use this logic at all but I cannot see how those using it can overlook that gaping flaw.[/quote]

192

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]cvb wrote:
I do agree that a woman has a right to an abortion if her life is threatened. It is self defense. For myself, I would try to save the child first.
[/quote]

Negative, abortions are always wrong.[/quote]

I agree and would not have one myself. But I would not legally force a woman whose life is at risk to have a baby. Nor would I pay for, drive her to or participate in the abortion. But I just can’t force her to die for her child.

193

BC I was by no means saying she should have no choice in the matter, as for when her life is in danger. After originally being informed of the perspective of the mother laying her life down for the child, that sat really heavy with me. I am honestly interested in other people’s perspectives.

My mind can be changed in regard to abortion if shown the fetus is NOT a separate person from the mother, at the moment of conception. Yet that has never happened, not even close!

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
cvb I ask a simple question, as an outsider who can never experience the trails and joys of pregnancy. Why not keep the child even with the risk of the mother dieing? How would a child feel knowing that their mother laid down her own life so the child could experience this world?! I know I would feel beyond honored!! Do not forget the woman HAS had a chance to live in this world. In addition, who knows what will actually happen? I KNOW Dr.'s are often wrong. They were mistaken about me and my future

<-----avatar ; )

[quote]cvb wrote: …
I do agree that a woman has a right to an abortion if her life is threatened. It is self defense. For myself, I would try to save the child first.
… [/quote]
[/quote]

Even though it is a great sacrifice for a mother to put herself in a position of risk to give birth to her child, it is definitely not obligatory for her to do so. However, abortion is not the solution. [/quote]

194

[quote]cvb wrote:
I agree and would not have one myself. But I would not legally force a woman whose life is at risk to have a baby.[/quote]

When did I say that we had to force her to have a baby? I said no abortion.

There is a much different approach that doesn’t involve abortion.

You don’t have to and at the same time you don’t have to allow abortion.

195

You have my attention as I study: hook, line and sinker. Which other option does she still have?

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]cvb wrote:
I agree and would not have one myself. But I would not legally force a woman whose life is at risk to have a baby.[/quote]

When did I say that we had to force her to have a baby? I said no abortion.

There is a much different approach that doesn’t involve abortion.

You don’t have to and at the same time you don’t have to allow abortion.[/quote]

196

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]flores87 wrote:
I would say that a life begins with the parents decision to have sex. As I stated earlier the purpose of sex is to create children. So if two people decide to have sex they are choosing to create children. I know it takes time for the fetus to fully develop, however the child’s parents decided to mix their genetic material to create this life. It all starts with the parents decision so the moment the sperm penetrates the egg and the development process begins, this is where I believe a human life begins. [/quote]

I give you:

the Bonobo!

Who, incidentally, fucks like a demented rabid on speed, for all kinds of reasons, with procreation being the least of his worries.

[/quote]

Nature of Man is not the savage or beast, sorry orion.[/quote]

Says you, but stapling two unfounded assumptions on top of each other do not a convincing argument make.

197

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
So you are arguing for the number of less than one percent of the total?

[quote]Deorum wrote:

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
Please tell me how the problems and trauma of a rape is made better by the continuation of an activity that is even worse than the original act?
[/quote]

But I already responded to that question in a different word form. It doesn’t make the act any better, however it can be justified. Ironically it can be justified using the very logic you are using to argue against it; you are saying because the women decides to have sex she assumes the responsibility of parenthood. Using this logic if she doesn’t choose to have sex she doesn’t assume the responsibility of parenthood and abortion becomes justified for her. I wouldn’t use this logic at all but I cannot see how those using it can overlook that gaping flaw.[/quote]
[/quote]

No, It is just I am not ignoring any 1% of anything here… While you are. I’m not speaking for any 1% I just wanted to bring attention to an instance that you insist on ignoring because it destroys your logic.

That is what you are saying right? We should ignore rape and assume that all sex is consensual so that your theory has some sort of integrity? Well you can’t do that, sorry to say. That is not how logic works… You can’t just ignore things when they contradict yourself -_-"

Edit: I just re-read my post and saw it wasn’t very clear and happened to edit it as you were responding to it.

198

The two are different. You can NOT compare them because one reaps the benefit of choosing what they want against the others will. In the second option celebrates the creation of life.

Have any more? You still have yet to define the unborn for me.

[quote]Deorum wrote:

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
So you are arguing for the number of less than one percent of the total?

[quote]Deorum wrote:

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
Please tell me how the problems and trauma of a rape is made better by the continuation of an activity that is even worse than the original act?
[/quote]

But I already responded to that question in a different word form. It doesn’t make the act any better, however it can be justified. Ironically it can be justified using the very logic you are using to argue against it; you are saying because the women decides to have sex she assumes the responsibility of parenthood. Using this logic if she doesn’t choose to have sex she doesn’t assume the responsibility of parenthood and abortion becomes justified for her. I wouldn’t use this logic at all but I cannot see how those using it can overlook that gaping flaw.[/quote]
[/quote]

I see the big picture. I am not ignoring any 1% of anything here… [/quote]

199

1+x=10… 99% of the time… unless x doesn’t equal 9… But that only happens 1% of the time so we can ignore that.

It’s just horribly flawed to think that way.

200

my apologies deorum, I am studying right now for a test tomorrow and I am not devoted totally to the conversation. However do NOT take this as any kind of ‘conceding the argument’. Actually far from it ; )