[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Oh, so I can go rape someone, murder someone, have sex with whoever I want to (family, friends’ wives, &c.) snort cocaine, shoot up heroin, sell my body for sex, break into a bank…it’s awesome to be a man that no one forces their morality on my body.
[/quote]
Rape, murder and breaking in to a bank no, other than that, knock yourself out.
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]ColumboSteel wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
And did you really just say “t-vixen?” [/quote]
Yes I did just say T-vixen. You know…the women who are on this site. Like I said a few posts ago to knee, who oddly enough failed to respond, its real easy to sit on your side of the fence when the situation in question can not happen to you isnt it?[/quote]
Sucks even more to be the one, male or female, who doesn’t get a choice one way or the other, though, doesn’t it?
I suppose I should know that a piddly little thing like a life that would not have otherwise existed but for the voluntary “choice” made by the “t-vixen” is never, ever, evereverever to interfere with the one, holy, inviolable dogma of the faith of the Church of Me. That is, absolute sexual freedom with no consequences nor censure of any kind is the only true absolute in this vast, barren (sorry, aborted) wasteland of relativity. [/quote]
Have you not read a single post of mine other than this one. My whole argument is that the idea of abortion being completely illegal in every instance, INCLUDING RAPE, is a sad attempt by people tring to force their beliefs onto others with no concern for the person involved because they would never be in that situation themselves and hence could have no way of knowing what it is like to be in such a situation. Now if you can show me that every woman who has ever been impregnated due to rape made that “choice”, then ill retract my argument.
[quote]ColumboSteel wrote:
Ummm no…you just laughed because you have a complete inability to comprehend.[/quote]
Sure, you just said I wouldn’t have exist, I just proved to you that I did exist, and then you say this:
That is not the definition of exist, I guess we can just call you Webster. You make up your own definitions.
No, but I still existed when I was 2 months old.
But, I did exist. And, if your definition of human is if they have memory, I suppose we can kill newborns who lack the mental capacity to remember.
That doesn’t make sense, exist is not a relative term. Either something exists or it doesn’t, either I existed in the womb or I didn’t. Either Santa Claus exists or he doesn’t. None of this bullshit, in the head.
Exactly, therefore I existed.
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Oh, so I can go rape someone, murder someone, have sex with whoever I want to (family, friends’ wives, &c.) snort cocaine, shoot up heroin, sell my body for sex, break into a bank…it’s awesome to be a man that no one forces their morality on my body.
[/quote]
Rape, murder and breaking in to a bank no, other than that, knock yourself out.
[/quote]
Actually I can’t, because I can be sued (some places even thrown in jail) for sleeping with someone’s wive, be thrown into jail for snorting cocaine, doing heroine, selling my body for sex. So, no I can’t just knock myself out. There is right and wrong, and we can reason what is right and wrong.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]ColumboSteel wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]ColumboSteel wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
And did you really just say “t-vixen?” [/quote]
Yes I did just say T-vixen. You know…the women who are on this site. Like I said a few posts ago to knee, who oddly enough failed to respond, its real easy to sit on your side of the fence when the situation in question can not happen to you isnt it?[/quote]
Well…you know…statistically 50% of babies are male. So, statistically the male population has equal chance of dealing with being aborted before being born than the female population. Oh, yeah and I forgot half the baby is the fathers. So, if you’re going to argue the baby is “part” of the woman, then half of the child is “part” of the man. [/quote]
Way to completely miss the point.[/quote]
Nope, pretty sure I got the point, you just don’t get the picture.
Oh, so I can go rape someone, murder someone, have sex with whoever I want to (family, friends’ wives, &c.) snort cocaine, shoot up heroin, sell my body for sex, break into a bank…it’s awesome to be a man that no one forces their morality on my body.
Red herring, come up with something better. This is exactly like someone telling me that I can’t kill my own kid because of some secondary reason (development, location, dependency, &c.).[/quote]
How do you use raping another human, murdering another human, have sex with another human, and breaking into a bank in a sorry attempt at sidestepping the point I was making and then in the very same quote call the weight lifting argument a red herring? And no you did in fact miss the point. Let me dumb it down for you with this question…
Can you get pregnant through rape? It is either a yes or no question and I think we all know how you will answer it so humor me.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]ColumboSteel wrote:
Ummm no…you just laughed because you have a complete inability to comprehend.[/quote]
Sure, you just said I wouldn’t have exist, I just proved to you that I did exist, and then you say this:
That is not the definition of exist, I guess we can just call you Webster. You make up your own definitions.
No, but I still existed when I was 2 months old.
But, I did exist. And, if your definition of human is if they have memory, I suppose we can kill newborns who lack the mental capacity to remember.
That doesn’t make sense, exist is not a relative term. Either something exists or it doesn’t, either I existed in the womb or I didn’t. Either Santa Claus exists or he doesn’t. None of this bullshit, in the head.
Exactly, therefore I existed.
[/quote]
If this is really that difficult for you to grasp and you want to continue to play word games to get around the points I am making then feel free to replace the word exist with something you can more easily grasp. You know damned well the point I am trying to make and you continue to side step it in an attempt to make a week old fetus on par with a new born baby.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Oh, so I can go rape someone, murder someone, have sex with whoever I want to (family, friends’ wives, &c.) snort cocaine, shoot up heroin, sell my body for sex, break into a bank…it’s awesome to be a man that no one forces their morality on my body.
[/quote]
Rape, murder and breaking in to a bank no, other than that, knock yourself out.
[/quote]
Actually I can’t, because I can be sued (some places even thrown in jail) for sleeping with someone’s wive, be thrown into jail for snorting cocaine, doing heroine, selling my body for sex. So, no I can’t just knock myself out. There is right and wrong, and we can reason what is right and wrong.[/quote]
The fact that you could be thrown into jail for doing any of those things is a sad commentary on our society and no justification for anything.
Also, we cannot reason right or wrong, this is one of the few instances were I agree with Oliver Wendell Holmes, law is guided by reason but by experience.
[quote]ColumboSteel wrote:
How do you use raping another human, murdering another human, have sex with another human, and breaking into a bank in a sorry attempt at sidestepping the point I was making and then in the very same quote call the weight lifting argument a red herring?[/quote]
Because you were trying to make it a point that we’re free to do with our bodies as we wish, and I brought up examples in which you’re not allowed to do with your body as you wish.
[quote]And no you did in fact miss the point. Let me dumb it down for you with this question…
Can you get pregnant through rape? It is either a yes or no question and I think we all know how you will answer it so humor me.[/quote]
Ad hominem abuse. Doesn’t matter if I am a man or not, either the argument is logical or it is not.
I’m guessing you’re not real good with logic. Let me explain here, it is ALWAYS WRONG TO HURT AN INNOCENT PERSON.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
I’m guessing you’re not real good with logic. Let me explain here, it is ALWAYS WRONG TO HURT AN INNOCENT PERSON.[/quote]
What does that have to do with logic?
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
I’m guessing you’re not real good with logic. Let me explain here, it is ALWAYS WRONG TO HURT AN INNOCENT PERSON.[/quote]
What does that have to do with logic?
[/quote]
First principle. The first statement was an observation for me to ‘dumb it down’ as he said.
[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
I went back to page 14 before I found a single point that you made, which I missed. Grow the fuck up and realize NONE of your points are anything new. And just so you know, I have never brought God into this discussion, never even once. Again, grow the fuck up and stop presuming to know how I will behave. Racism is no different you bigoted fuck stain. Oh wait, knowing my behavior is exactly how Oleena is trying to argue for your same cause! Shocker, I KNOW!!
[quote]ColumboSteel wrote:
[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
“playing God” is when you exterminate any life when you deem necessary or in the way. Creating life should be given the same reverence.
Now please define the unborn for me.
[quote]ColumboSteel wrote:
So I have a question for all you anti-abortion fellas. How would you all define “playing god” in a general sense? Interfering with the nature process of life perhaps?[/quote]
[/quote]
First, why is it that you can only “play god” when it comes to exterminating life? Why is it that saving a life that otherwise would have ended is not considered the same? Second, go back and read where I clearly told you how I was using unborn and finally, you failed to answer my question as to why the definition of unborn has any relevance to this argument.[/quote]
[/quote]
Where do I even begin with this little gem.
First off. You say none of my points are anything new. And yours are? Your idea of logic is ‘I feel I have the right to decide what someone else gets to do to their body…just because’. Is that some new ground breaking idea that science just came up with?
Second. Yes knee you actually did bring god into it. Do I need to tell you the page that you claimed to be catholic? I have every right to assume that because you are religious and you felt the need to say so it is where you are arguing from till you prove otherwise and whether you are arguing from that point or not does not make your idea of infringing on anothers rights any more valid.
Third. You tell me to grow the fuck up and in the very next sentence call me a bigoted fuck stain. Sense when is being an internet tough guy and calling someone high school putdowns a sign of maturity and being “grown up”? Or is that just how you use the idea of being “grown up”?
Fourth. You need to go re-read your own posts and find where you claimed I had not addressed points you made. That would be why I asked for them in the first place and as of yet you still have not given me a single point that I had not addressed.
Fifth. You said “You believe the child created from a rape has the genetic behavior and therefore deserves death. Brother Chris used a term which you do NOT even understand and you try to act like one of the big boys. Please stop now or your immaturity will continue to show itself, again and again”. Sense you are completely unaware of what a strawman is as evident by your response and your prior claims, here is a definition I will provide for you.
Strawman- a component of an argument and is an informal fallacy based on MISREPRESENTATION of an opponent’s position.
At no point in this whole thread, and I challenge you to find it if you believe otherwise, have I ever made a serious claim even remotely similar to that. Not even close. I have never used the phrase “genetic behavior”, nor have I ever said that a child deserves death, and if you are refering to the sarcastic remark I made to chris involving the killing of children then first you need to work on your ability to comprehend sarcasm. Then you need to grasp the whole point of the debate we are having. I DONT believe that a fetus a few weeks old is the same as a developed child which has been born, where as you do, hense the sarcasm of the remark. I would be somewhat disappointed if, after all this time, you didnt even know what we are arguing about.
Lastly. You can not make claims such as " I respect the ethics of other people and I will never force those choices upon someone else", in the same thread that you are making the argument of trying to make abortion illegal and “force those choices upon someone else”. Can you seriously not grasp the contradiction in that statement when you are trying to do just that by forcing your moral philosophy onto a woman? If you at least could agree that it is acceptable in some situations then I could respect you for that.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]ColumboSteel wrote:
How do you use raping another human, murdering another human, have sex with another human, and breaking into a bank in a sorry attempt at sidestepping the point I was making and then in the very same quote call the weight lifting argument a red herring?[/quote]
Because you were trying to make it a point that we’re free to do with our bodies as we wish, and I brought up examples in which you’re not allowed to do with your body as you wish.
[quote]And no you did in fact miss the point. Let me dumb it down for you with this question…
Can you get pregnant through rape? It is either a yes or no question and I think we all know how you will answer it so humor me.[/quote]
Ad hominem abuse. Doesn’t matter if I am a man or not, either the argument is logical or it is not.
I’m guessing you’re not real good with logic. Let me explain here, it is ALWAYS WRONG TO HURT AN INNOCENT PERSON.[/quote]
You can really compare yourself rapeing another to someone telling you what you can and cant do with your body? Robbing a bank is the same as someone telling you that you can no longer work out. Let me make this more clear for you because you either know what I am talking about and just dont want to admit it or you are an idiot. Another person TAKING CONTROL of your body. In which of those examples you used does another person force you do do something you dont want to do with your body? None.
Another cop out with the Ad hominem remark. The whole point of the comment was that because you could never be in that situation it is easy for you to believe as you do. You have no idea how you would react if such a situation were to befall you, and if you believe you do, I would suggest hitting up a rape counseling session in progress so you could grill these, apparently missguided woman who have been in such a situation and were forced to make the choice, in the error of their ways and how you are a much better person because you would have made the right choice had you been in their shoes. I would love to be in the same room when this went down.
Here is the last point that you cant seem to grasp chris. You say that it is always wrong to hurt an innocent person yet you want to take an innocent person who has already been hurt, then subject them to further pain, both mentally and physically. Are you putting the pain a woman feels during a rape, 9 months of pregnancy, and a child birth on par with the pain a fetus feels when it is aborted?
[quote]ColumboSteel wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]ColumboSteel wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
And did you really just say “t-vixen?” [/quote]
Yes I did just say T-vixen. You know…the women who are on this site. Like I said a few posts ago to knee, who oddly enough failed to respond, its real easy to sit on your side of the fence when the situation in question can not happen to you isnt it?[/quote]
Sucks even more to be the one, male or female, who doesn’t get a choice one way or the other, though, doesn’t it?
I suppose I should know that a piddly little thing like a life that would not have otherwise existed but for the voluntary “choice” made by the “t-vixen” is never, ever, evereverever to interfere with the one, holy, inviolable dogma of the faith of the Church of Me. That is, absolute sexual freedom with no consequences nor censure of any kind is the only true absolute in this vast, barren (sorry, aborted) wasteland of relativity. [/quote]
Have you not read a single post of mine other than this one. My whole argument is that the idea of abortion being completely illegal in every instance, INCLUDING RAPE, is a sad attempt by people tring to force their beliefs onto others with no concern for the person involved because they would never be in that situation themselves and hence could have no way of knowing what it is like to be in such a situation. Now if you can show me that every woman who has ever been impregnated due to rape made that “choice”, then ill retract my argument.[/quote]
I have read your posts. Throwing yourself on the ground kicking and screaming repeating yourself again and again like a two year old is not going to get your point across any better than plugging your fingers in your ears saying nyaanyaanyaaIcanthearyouIcanthearyou!!!
The point remains: You are taking the life of another to support some exalted relativist idea of “choice” that would never exist if it was you they were about to rip limb from limb.
You show me these are not a human lives being very literally sacrificed at the alter of “choice” in numbers that would make an Aztec high priest queasy and I might start to acknowledge you have some sort of point to make.
Hell Chris, why are you even whining on an internet forum about this. Shouldnt you be seeking out the women who commit this atrocity or who might, and educating them? Making it illegal is not going to stop it from happening. In the end the choice is always going to rest with the women. Make it illegal here and it will either be done in some back alley clinic, or they will go to another country that will do it if they want to take the legal route. See chris, legal or illegal, your inflated sense of morality is always going to lose out because if a women wants to get an abortion, one way or another, its going to happen.
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]ColumboSteel wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]ColumboSteel wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
And did you really just say “t-vixen?” [/quote]
Yes I did just say T-vixen. You know…the women who are on this site. Like I said a few posts ago to knee, who oddly enough failed to respond, its real easy to sit on your side of the fence when the situation in question can not happen to you isnt it?[/quote]
Sucks even more to be the one, male or female, who doesn’t get a choice one way or the other, though, doesn’t it?
I suppose I should know that a piddly little thing like a life that would not have otherwise existed but for the voluntary “choice” made by the “t-vixen” is never, ever, evereverever to interfere with the one, holy, inviolable dogma of the faith of the Church of Me. That is, absolute sexual freedom with no consequences nor censure of any kind is the only true absolute in this vast, barren (sorry, aborted) wasteland of relativity. [/quote]
Have you not read a single post of mine other than this one. My whole argument is that the idea of abortion being completely illegal in every instance, INCLUDING RAPE, is a sad attempt by people tring to force their beliefs onto others with no concern for the person involved because they would never be in that situation themselves and hence could have no way of knowing what it is like to be in such a situation. Now if you can show me that every woman who has ever been impregnated due to rape made that “choice”, then ill retract my argument.[/quote]
I have read your posts. Throwing yourself on the ground kicking and screaming repeating yourself again and again like a two year old is not going to get your point across any better than plugging your fingers in your ears saying nyaanyaanyaaIcanthearyouIcanthearyou!!!
The point remains: You are taking the life of another to support some exalted relativist idea of “choice” that would never exist if it was you they were about to rip limb from limb.
You show me these are not a human lives being very literally sacrificed at the alter of “choice” in numbers that would make an Aztec high priest queasy and I might start to acknowledge you have some sort of point to make.
[/quote]
Yeah that whole gosh darn rights thing. I guess me saying “the woman should have rights”, really does not sink in with people like you. Also I am actually arguing on an internet forum just like you, not throwing myself on the ground kicking and screaming like a two year old. Hell on that note, how can you claim that I am the one doing the kicking and screaming? My side got what they want remember? Abortion is legal and you are the one kicking and sreaming that it shouldnt be.
I highly doubt that a medical procedure to remove an object no bigger than a zit from a womans womb is on par with being torn limb from limb.
The point remains, that you just will not address directly, is that you want to take rights away from woman. Just at least admit to that.
Here’s one for you guys. Since you are so fond of this “argument” form, How would you feel if you were married, had one child already and you were ready for number two. You and your wife have already agreed, together, to have this child. She gets pregnant, and you are just thrilled, you tell your current child, who is just old enough to understand, that she has a little sister or brother coming.
Then, your wife suddenly has a change of heart. She can’t do it. It’s just under three months in but there’s no way she can do it, she is going to have the abortion.
What would you do and how would you feel?
[quote]ColumboSteel wrote:
The point remains, that you just will not address directly, is that you want to take rights away from woman. Just at least admit to that. [/quote]
The point has been addressed ad nauseum, hence my reference to your behavior.
A woman has NO RIGHT, NONE! to take the life of another human being.
Now, that’s my premise. The onus is on you to demonstrate either that she DOES indeed possess the right to snuff out human life, or to show that it is NOT a human life. Not one of you have done either.
[quote]ColumboSteel wrote:
I highly doubt that a medical procedure to remove an object no bigger than a zit from a womans womb is on par with being torn limb from limb. [/quote]
Is that what you believe happens?
I’ll bet you can’t watch this:
[quote]GorillaMon wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]GorillaMon wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
So, by your logic, we should be devoting every resource we have to the elderly?
The 14 year old daughter game you are trying to play is another kind of logical fallacy. I’ll answer your question if you can tell me which one it is. [/quote]
It’s not a logical fallacy.
It’s a hypothetical.
Please step away from the logical fallacy list & re-connect with common sense for a second here.
[/quote]
You are right. It is not a logical fallacy. It is actually a number of them contained in a concise package. If the goal here is efficiency of equivocation, you are doing great:
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-consequences.html
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-emotion.html
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-pity.html
and the most important one:
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/two-wrongs-make-a-right.html[/quote]
Dude, if you want to try & be uber rational about this. I can assure you, in relation to both this issue & many others, you’ll come to some very unpallatable conclusions.
Pointing out logical fallacies really doesn’t further your argument.
[/quote]
Never let rationality and honesty get in the way of making your point, right?
[quote]ColumboSteel wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]ColumboSteel wrote:
How do you use raping another human, murdering another human, have sex with another human, and breaking into a bank in a sorry attempt at sidestepping the point I was making and then in the very same quote call the weight lifting argument a red herring?[/quote]
Because you were trying to make it a point that we’re free to do with our bodies as we wish, and I brought up examples in which you’re not allowed to do with your body as you wish.
[quote]And no you did in fact miss the point. Let me dumb it down for you with this question…
Can you get pregnant through rape? It is either a yes or no question and I think we all know how you will answer it so humor me.[/quote]
Ad hominem abuse. Doesn’t matter if I am a man or not, either the argument is logical or it is not.
I’m guessing you’re not real good with logic. Let me explain here, it is ALWAYS WRONG TO HURT AN INNOCENT PERSON.[/quote]
You can really compare yourself rapeing another to someone telling you what you can and cant do with your body? Robbing a bank is the same as someone telling you that you can no longer work out. Let me make this more clear for you because you either know what I am talking about and just dont want to admit it or you are an idiot. Another person TAKING CONTROL of your body. In which of those examples you used does another person force you do do something you dont want to do with your body? None.[/quote]
Actually, all of them are. I want to rob a bank, I don’t want to not rob a bank. Therefore someone is forcing me to do something I don’t want with my body.
[quote]
Another cop out with the Ad hominem remark. The whole point of the comment was that because you could never be in that situation it is easy for you to believe as you do.[/quote]
It’s easy for me to believe that you shouldn’t hurt an innocent person because I can’t get pregnant? What does that say about women? I’m sure all these women that I supervise would just love to be told that bull shit.
Red herring. What does my reaction have anything to do with if it’s okay to have an abortion or not. And, you obviously being a little emotional as I would never go into a rape counseling session and condemn these women.
I have two women that work in the same organization, one is my co-leader the other one is a supervisor of the organization on the east coast. Both were impregnated by rapist, both didn’t abort. I’m sure they’d love this bullshit characterizing of women. Only thing they felt was forced upon them was the rapist.
As well, you should talk to one of my dear friends who’s father is her mother’s rapist. I’m sure she’d love to hear how she should have been aborted because of her father’s sins.
[quote]
Oh and BTW you are a nutless coward if you dont practice what you preach. I would love to be in the same room when this went down.[/quote]
Sounds like you’re a little bit sensitive. Is there something you want to tell us.