Pro-Lifer Throws Incendiary Device at PP

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
501

[quote]Cortes wrote:
Here’s one for you guys. Since you are so fond of this “argument” form, How would you feel if you were married, had one child already and you were ready for number two. You and your wife have already agreed, together, to have this child. She gets pregnant, and you are just thrilled, you tell your current child, who is just old enough to understand, that she has a little sister or brother coming.

Then, your wife suddenly has a change of heart. She can’t do it. It’s just under three months in but there’s no way she can do it, she is going to have the abortion.

What would you do and how would you feel? [/quote]

Well unlike some others on here ill take the high road and say that sense it has not happened to me I dont know how I would react, but I can venture a guess.

First. Ill say that I dont believe abortion should be used as a contraceptive in that regards. I think that if you want a child then it should not be a decision to be taken lightly and would hope that any decision to have one was very well thought out.
That being said I would be a hypocrite if I had been arguing that woman should have the right to choose and then turn around and say no. In the end the 9 months of carrying a child and the pain of child birth are the womens to bear so in the end it would be up to her. Would I be dissapointed, and saddened if this was to occure. I am quite sure I would be.

Again this is how I imagine such a scenario would play out.

502

[quote]ColumboSteel wrote:
Hell Chris, why are you even whining on an internet forum about this. Shouldnt you be seeking out the women who commit this atrocity or who might, and educating them?[/quote]

Justice For All I do talk to them. However, unlike you. I don’t act like a prick. I can say what is right and wrong without acting like a complete and utter asshole.

Yes, so what does it matter then? I mean you can have the same argument for all crimes.

Actually, statistics show that there is still the same amount of back alley abortions and DIY abortions. So, what does that mean, that the laws didn’t prevent these from happening. They are still happening.

In the past 1.5 years I have heard from friends that 5 girls have died doing abortions themselves. I know of dozens women who have done their own abortions. It hasn’t stopped. So this is a weak argument.

Okay, legal or illegal, your inflated sense of morality is always going to lose out because if a wrong doer wants to do wrong, one way or another, it’s going to happen. Great argument for making things legal. [/sarcasm]

503

To continue this charade, if you guys really want to bring in the “You aren’t a insert minority group here so you, like, can’t understand what it’s really like, like,” then you can kindly leave the thread now. Because unless you have no penis, then neither do you.

504

[quote]ColumboSteel wrote:
not throwing myself on the ground kicking and screaming like a two year old.[/quote]

I’d beg to differ, if you haven’t noticed. You’re the one calling people names and making up fallacious and emotional arguments.

505

[quote]ColumboSteel wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:
Here’s one for you guys. Since you are so fond of this “argument” form, How would you feel if you were married, had one child already and you were ready for number two. You and your wife have already agreed, together, to have this child. She gets pregnant, and you are just thrilled, you tell your current child, who is just old enough to understand, that she has a little sister or brother coming.

Then, your wife suddenly has a change of heart. She can’t do it. It’s just under three months in but there’s no way she can do it, she is going to have the abortion.

What would you do and how would you feel? [/quote]

Well unlike some others on here ill take the high road and say that sense it has not happened to me I dont know how I would react, but I can venture a guess.

First. Ill say that I dont believe abortion should be used as a contraceptive in that regards. I think that if you want a child then it should not be a decision to be taken lightly and would hope that any decision to have one was very well thought out.
That being said I would be a hypocrite if I had been arguing that woman should have the right to choose and then turn around and say no. In the end the 9 months of carrying a child and the pain of child birth are the womens to bear so in the end it would be up to her. Would I be dissapointed, and saddened if this was to occure. I am quite sure I would be.

Again this is how I imagine such a scenario would play out.[/quote]

You don’t have children, do you?

506

[quote] ColumboSteel wrote:

I think that if you want a child then it should not be a decision to be taken lightly and would hope that any decision to have one was very well thought out.
[/quote]

Why?

507

[quote]ColumboSteel wrote:

I highly doubt that a medical procedure to remove an object no bigger than a zit from a womans womb is on par with being torn limb from limb. [/quote]

I agree that the unborn is smaller than you and I. But explain to me how is the size revelant to human value? Would we say that a 1 year old is less of a person than an 3 year old, or a toddler is less of a person than an adult just because he’s smaller?

508

[quote]ColumboSteel wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:
Here’s one for you guys. Since you are so fond of this “argument” form, How would you feel if you were married, had one child already and you were ready for number two. You and your wife have already agreed, together, to have this child. She gets pregnant, and you are just thrilled, you tell your current child, who is just old enough to understand, that she has a little sister or brother coming.

Then, your wife suddenly has a change of heart. She can’t do it. It’s just under three months in but there’s no way she can do it, she is going to have the abortion.

What would you do and how would you feel? [/quote]

Well unlike some others on here ill take the high road and say that sense it has not happened to me I dont know how I would react, but I can venture a guess.

First. Ill say that I dont believe abortion should be used as a contraceptive in that regards. I think that if you want a child then it should not be a decision to be taken lightly and would hope that any decision to have one was very well thought out.
That being said I would be a hypocrite if I had been arguing that woman should have the right to choose and then turn around and say no. In the end the 9 months of carrying a child and the pain of child birth are the womens to bear so in the end it would be up to her. Would I be dissapointed, and saddened if this was to occure. I am quite sure I would be.

Again this is how I imagine such a scenario would play out.[/quote]

So, you’d be cool with your wife a week before she was supposed to give birth to have an abortion? Interesting!

509

For the let’s ask women: http://www.silentnomoreawareness.org/index.aspx

510

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]GorillaMon wrote:
Vasectomies are a sensible option for people that don’t want kids.
[/quote]

It’s really simple, if you aren’t open to having children…DON’T HAVE SEX. It’s the whole road
thing, if you don’t wanna go North Carolina, don’t take the 40.[/quote]

Wow, such practical advice.

If we applied this logic to everything else in life, we’d never do anything.

511

[quote]Cortes wrote:
Here’s one for you guys. Since you are so fond of this “argument” form, How would you feel if you were married, had one child already and you were ready for number two. You and your wife have already agreed, together, to have this child. She gets pregnant, and you are just thrilled, you tell your current child, who is just old enough to understand, that she has a little sister or brother coming.

Then, your wife suddenly has a change of heart. She can’t do it. It’s just under three months in but there’s no way she can do it, she is going to have the abortion.

What would you do and how would you feel? [/quote]

Initially, I’d be gutted.

Though, I’d still respect her choice.

What would you do?

512

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]GorillaMon wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]GorillaMon wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:
So, by your logic, we should be devoting every resource we have to the elderly?

The 14 year old daughter game you are trying to play is another kind of logical fallacy. I’ll answer your question if you can tell me which one it is. [/quote]

It’s not a logical fallacy.

It’s a hypothetical.

Please step away from the logical fallacy list & re-connect with common sense for a second here.

[/quote]

You are right. It is not a logical fallacy. It is actually a number of them contained in a concise package. If the goal here is efficiency of equivocation, you are doing great:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-consequences.html

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-emotion.html

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-pity.html

and the most important one:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/two-wrongs-make-a-right.html[/quote]

Dude, if you want to try & be uber rational about this. I can assure you, in relation to both this issue & many others, you’ll come to some very unpallatable conclusions.

Pointing out logical fallacies really doesn’t further your argument.
[/quote]

What that the killing of innocent people is always wrong?[/quote]

Nope.

You missed the point.

Consider ‘taboo’ morality & come back to me on that.

You can pretend all you want that your view on this issue is informed by nothing but pure logic etc…though, you’d be wrong. You just don’t see it.

I dare say, religion has something to do with it.

513

[quote]GorillaMon wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:
Here’s one for you guys. Since you are so fond of this “argument” form, How would you feel if you were married, had one child already and you were ready for number two. You and your wife have already agreed, together, to have this child. She gets pregnant, and you are just thrilled, you tell your current child, who is just old enough to understand, that she has a little sister or brother coming.

Then, your wife suddenly has a change of heart. She can’t do it. It’s just under three months in but there’s no way she can do it, she is going to have the abortion.

What would you do and how would you feel? [/quote]

Initially, I’d be gutted.

Though, I’d still respect her choice.

What would you do?[/quote]

I’d be a man.

I’d do everything in my power to persuade and prevent her from murdering our child.

What,did you abdicate all your rights as a man to feminism and “choice?”

514

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]GorillaMon wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:
Here’s one for you guys. Since you are so fond of this “argument” form, How would you feel if you were married, had one child already and you were ready for number two. You and your wife have already agreed, together, to have this child. She gets pregnant, and you are just thrilled, you tell your current child, who is just old enough to understand, that she has a little sister or brother coming.

Then, your wife suddenly has a change of heart. She can’t do it. It’s just under three months in but there’s no way she can do it, she is going to have the abortion.

What would you do and how would you feel? [/quote]

Initially, I’d be gutted.

Though, I’d still respect her choice.

What would you do?[/quote]

I’d be a man.

I’d do everything in my power to persuade and prevent her from murdering our child.

What,did you abdicate all your rights as a man to feminism and “choice?”
[/quote]

Men have different values dude. Sorry to break this to you.

IMHO, pandering to either gender ideal (of what makes a ‘real man’ or ‘real woman’) is what makes you a real pussycake!

Feminism is a rather tired scapegoat here.

515

[quote]GorillaMon wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]GorillaMon wrote:
Vasectomies are a sensible option for people that don’t want kids.
[/quote]

It’s really simple, if you aren’t open to having children…DON’T HAVE SEX. It’s the whole road
thing, if you don’t wanna go North Carolina, don’t take the 40.[/quote]

Wow, such practical advice.

If we applied this logic to everything else in life, we’d never do anything.
[/quote]

I don’t get what you’re trying to say, can you explain.

516

[quote]GorillaMon wrote:
You missed the point.[/quote]

Then explain it. It is after all your point.

Why don’t you consider Natural Law and come back to me on that.

[quote]
You can pretend all you want that your view on this issue is informed by nothing but pure logic etc…though, you’d be wrong. You just don’t see it.[/quote]

Well then let’s reason this out. Let’s get some common ground first, is a child that is born alive?

[quote]
I dare say, religion has something to do with it. [/quote]

You’d be wrong, I was pro-life before I was religious. Christopher Hitchens is pro-life as well, doubt you’d say it is because of religion that he’s pro-life.

517

[quote]GorillaMon wrote:
Men have different values.
[/quote]

But the important question is here is how do we value the unborn, are they persons or not persons?

518

Oops, here is the post you were referring to. No? To appease your rants, here you go -

[quote]ColumboSteel wrote:
Ignored your points? I have addressed every point you have made and not in a tip toe around the subject matter as you do, and if not then post a point you claim I have missed and ill address it. When you ask the same question over and over when it has already been answered over and over then yes you are a broken record, or some dumbass troll who is just trying to get a rise out of people.[/quote] Yet you never once provide any rebuttal, but to few of my counterpoints. Instead of choosing each line you want to challenge, try the whole post.

[quote]GENETICS DETERMINING BEHAIVIOR?!? Nice straw man there. We were talking about the rights of a woman vs. the rights of a potential child [/quote] So when do children gain rights? After a trip down the birth canal? Nope not there. What about the children born via caesarian? No trip down a canal there! Then you have someone who murders a pregnant woman, guess what they are charged with? TWO homicides. Why would that happen if children are not alive in the womb? Huh?

[quote]and somehow you pull that out of left field and claim that it somehow was part of the argument. Seriously, sarcasm or not, WTF??[/quote] Where? From you trying to debate with adults? Grow up and realize there is a time and place.

[quote]And logic? You have not made a single logical argument yet. You are arguing from emotion. Big difference. I guess, by your “logic”, the rights of a small clump of cells which MAY develope into a child are more important than the rights of a breathing, mature person because…well just because. Very Logical.[/quote] Wrong there buddy ol’ pal sarcasm here because I can back my claims with universally accepted science? NO you can [i]NOT[/i], well I can and do. Your arguments are nothing but for a choice, like vanilla vs chocolate ice cream. That is a choice. Life is a choice ALL life deserves!

[quote]Finally if you failed to detect the sarcasm of the killing a child remark, then work on your comprehension abilities. At least my sarcasm is relevant to the actual argument we were having.[/quote] See above junior.

[quote]Its so easy for people to infringe on the rights of another when the situation in question could never happen to them isnt it?[/quote] No, pretty sure a male will provide half the needed genetics to create said life.

[quote]My final point in all this? If you think you should be allowed to limit others rights because of your own beliefs then you should live somewhere that condones such things. Try afghanistan. I hear they have great timeshares and they are all about limiting the rights of women. You would fit right in.[/quote] First of all this is America. I will never leave, even if I have to lay my life down for everyone to remain free. FREE to chose what I want in LIFE! Never have I only used my beliefs in anything but science. If I am believing in some higher power to argue my point, find it please. Place my words in quotes and reference page. You will NEVER find me argue the case for life this way.

So now you want me to go to you for everything? No matter how ignorant and moronic your stand?! Sorry, I use my life experience (something you lack a TON of) and straight foward thinking, logic. Amazingly enough, I have done pretty well even though my life growing up was far from lackluster. However I would never chose death over this life.

Let me know when you would like to spar again. However I think your bruises will scar after being cut so often shrug Your choice though!! See I offer choice to ALL people, something you fail to do when you kill a defenseless child in the womb. Instead you think women should have the option available when she CHOSE a behavior that created said life. How is that ever acceptable? Oh, that is right, it never is!

519

[quote]ColumboSteel wrote:
Where do I even begin with this little gem.
First off. You say none of my points are anything new. And yours are? Your idea of logic is ‘I feel I have the right to decide what someone else gets to do to their body…just because’. Is that some new ground breaking idea that science just came up with?[/quote] So now you place words in my mouth to argue your case? Yup, you will convert me with the way you speak about truth and honesty. And guess what, science proves life starts earlier and earlier. With time, science accepted by all will prove life starts at the moment of conception.

[quote]Second. Yes knee you actually did bring god into it. Do I need to tell you the page that you claimed to be catholic? I have every right to assume that because you are religious and you felt the need to say so it is where you are arguing from till you prove otherwise and whether you are arguing from that point or not does not make your idea of infringing on anothers rights any more valid.[/quote] Yes, I am Catholic and proud of it. However I answered another posters question. That is all I have ever done, I never backed my claim with religion in this thread. Science proves the way my faith tells me to believe. Yup, they do not clash, wonder why that would be?

[quote]Third. You tell me to grow the fuck up and in the very next sentence call me a bigoted fuck stain. Sense when is being an internet tough guy and calling someone high school putdowns a sign of maturity and being “grown up”? Or is that just how you use the idea of being “grown up”?[/quote] Racism and the people who believe skin color is a detriment of the type of person the other is are shit stains and your claim of choice super ceding life makes you a fuck stain. Simply calling you how I see you shrug

[quote]Fourth. You need to go re-read your own posts and find where you claimed I had not addressed points you made. That would be why I asked for them in the first place and as of yet you still have not given me a single point that I had not addressed.[/quote] Never once have you given me, with universally accepted science, DEFINE: [u]THE UNBORN[/u] -

[quote]Fifth. You said “You believe the child created from a rape has the genetic behavior and therefore deserves death. Brother Chris used a term which you do NOT even understand and you try to act like one of the big boys. Please stop now or your immaturity will continue to show itself, again and again”. Sense you are completely unaware of what a strawman is as evident by your response and your prior claims, here is a definition I will provide for you.
Strawman- a component of an argument and is an informal fallacy based on MISREPRESENTATION of an opponent’s position.[/quote] The child of a rapist will never become a rapist themselves unless they are taught the behavior. I openly mock you and now you try to use that against me? Keep fishing . . . .

[quote]At no point in this whole thread, and I challenge you to find it if you believe otherwise, have I ever made a serious claim even remotely similar to that. Not even close. I have never used the phrase “genetic behavior”, nor have I ever said that a child deserves death,[/quote]So you know, abortion results in the death of a child![quote] and if you are refering to the sarcastic remark I made to chris involving the killing of children then first you need to work on your ability to comprehend sarcasm. Then you need to grasp the whole point of the debate we are having. I DONT believe that a fetus a few weeks old is the same as a developed child which has been born, where as you do, hense the sarcasm of the remark. I would be somewhat disappointed if, after all this time, you didnt even know what we are arguing about.[/quote] Your OPINION. Science proves the child has the characteristics of life, separate from the mother, from the very moment of conception. Prove to me otherwise. You can say you first all you want, however you came into a thread against abortion, therefore YOU have to prove your stance against life. Hint the mother and father each provide half, together they create a life with their own genome, unlike any other on earth.

[quote]Lastly. You can not make claims such as " I respect the ethics of other people and I will never force those choices upon someone else", in the same thread that you are making the argument of trying to make abortion illegal and “force those choices upon someone else”. [/quote] Choices are like vanilla vs chocolate ice cream. [quote] Can you seriously not grasp the contradiction in that statement when you are trying to do just that by forcing your moral philosophy onto a woman? If you at least could agree that it is acceptable in some situations then I could respect you for that.[/quote] Respecting life of ALL people is now a philosophy? Wow, my mind thought we left the Nazi era long ago. Can I ask where I can and can NOT respect life? Nope, I will respect ALL human life, in ALL shapes and sizes, in ALL levels of development, in ALL environments and in ALL the degrees of dependency. However I KNOW that is a claim you can never make, and because of that you are a poor excuse of a human.

520

[quote]GorillaMon wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]GorillaMon wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:
Here’s one for you guys. Since you are so fond of this “argument” form, How would you feel if you were married, had one child already and you were ready for number two. You and your wife have already agreed, together, to have this child. She gets pregnant, and you are just thrilled, you tell your current child, who is just old enough to understand, that she has a little sister or brother coming.

Then, your wife suddenly has a change of heart. She can’t do it. It’s just under three months in but there’s no way she can do it, she is going to have the abortion.

What would you do and how would you feel? [/quote]

Initially, I’d be gutted.

Though, I’d still respect her choice.

What would you do?[/quote]

I’d be a man.

I’d do everything in my power to persuade and prevent her from murdering our child.

What,did you abdicate all your rights as a man to feminism and “choice?”
[/quote]

Men have different values dude. Sorry to break this to you.

IMHO, pandering to either gender ideal (of what makes a ‘real man’ or ‘real woman’) is what makes you a real pussycake!

Feminism is a rather tired scapegoat here.

[/quote]

What universe do you inhabit where it is not an ideal to fight for the life of your child, particularly when you share exactly one half of the responsibility for the creation of that life?

But okay, let’s pursue this. If you don’t mind, why would you be disappointed?