Pro-Lifer Throws Incendiary Device at PP

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
461

[quote]ColumboSteel wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:
And did you really just say “t-vixen?” [/quote]

Yes I did just say T-vixen. You know…the women who are on this site. Like I said a few posts ago to knee, who oddly enough failed to respond, its real easy to sit on your side of the fence when the situation in question can not happen to you isnt it?[/quote]

Sucks even more to be the one, male or female, who doesn’t get a choice one way or the other, though, doesn’t it?

I suppose I should know that a piddly little thing like a life that would not have otherwise existed but for the voluntary “choice” made by the “t-vixen” is never, ever, evereverever to interfere with the one, holy, inviolable dogma of the faith of the Church of Me. That is, absolute sexual freedom with no consequences nor censure of any kind is the only true absolute in this vast, barren (sorry, aborted) wasteland of relativity.

462

I could say something here about abstention, masturbation, contraception, homosexual sex, sex beyond the point of fertility etc (just to mention a handful of things which are not conducive to procreation) though, I’m sure the logical fallacy police would be rather, ahem…aroused by this

Must be kinda nice to live in a Universe where everything is so black & white.

463

[quote]Oleena wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]Oleena wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]Oleena wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:
Oleena: Do you believe in self-determination?[/quote]

What do you mean by this^^^? Do you mean do I believe it’s possible? Do I believe it should happen? Do I believe it does happen?

Also, what is your definition of self-determination, before we accidently start an argument that eventually boils down to definition. (I will use your definition and promise not to argue another)[/quote]

Do you believe that humans possess the ability and the right to determine their own destinies?
[/quote]

I don’t know. On one hand, there is more and more evidence that brain chemicals greatly effect mood, which effect choices, thus if the person isn’t aware of how to manipulate brain chemicals or their chemicals are effected by genetics, they do not completely have the ability to determine their own destinies. Also, a person born into one place in the world doesn’t have the ability to reach the same life that a person born in another place does, so this limits their ability to control their destiny regardless of their bodily limits (think Afghanistan women).

Now your wording was, do I believe they possess they right to determine their own destinies. Realistically, not everyone in the world possesses the ability to determine their own destinies (Afghan women are once again a great example). You didn’t ask if I think they should receive that right, you just asked if they already possess it, so I would have to answer no.

Basically, there isn’t a blanket answer. It’s always situational because there are too many factors that effect it.

[/quote]

Oleena, you’re being disengenuous. It’s not a difficult question and it does not require 200 words of dissimulation to finally dodge.

Don’t try and read where I’m going or leave yourself a bunch of outs just in case. If what you believe is true it should rest on firm enough ground to stand on its own without your protecting it like, ahem, a mother.

When given the choice, are humans able to make their own decisions, yes or no?

And for the record, I did indeed say “should.” Here is my exact question, once again, with emphasis:

Do you believe that humans possess the ability and the right to determine their own destinies?

I really can’t make it any simpler than it already is. You and I both know why you don’t want to take a definite stand on this issue, though, don’t we?
[/quote]

Cortes, I am being honest and respectful with you. I’m trying to give you the most thoroughly thought out answer I am capable of and I’m sorry if this isn’t so for you, but for me it’s not a black and white, yes, no answer. It’s not that I don’t WANT to take a definite stand on the answer; my life and inner life would be a thousand times easier if I did. After giving it thought, I simply CAN’T with the reasoning capabilities I was born with. Do you understand how that could be possible, in all honestly, given serious consideration to the topic?

I already answered your question as realistically as I am capable of. It is a difficult question. If it’s not for you, it’s because you aren’t thinking about it or are seriously lacking a lot of data.
[/quote]

Okay, I’ll take you at your words.

So, let me just ask you to clarify, you just said that certain people DO NOT POSSESS RIGHTS, am I correct? I want to make sure I am not putting words in your mouth.

464

[quote]GorillaMon wrote:
I could say something here about abstention, masturbation, contraception, homosexual sex, sex beyond the point of fertility etc (just to mention a handful of things which are not conducive to procreation) though, I’m sure the logical fallacy police would be rather, ahem…aroused by this

Must be kinda nice to live in a Universe where everything is so black & white. [/quote]

Did you even read what I wrote above (in response to Mak defending the red herring that you are still waving around)?

How about you address my counterpoint to your accident scenario? I notice that one got lost in a storm of flapping fish.

465

For what I doubt is the last time:

There is absolutely NO CHANCE that when I shoot my load all over my keyboard watching brazilian fart porn that I will come back to anything but a crusty patch and a sticking asdf. Though it may be sad, I will never ever ever be greeted by a magical keyboard sperm baby, nor will the stiffly angular gym sock I use for a catch rag ever spawn a little partner to play catch with.

Speaking hypothetically here, of course.

466

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]GorillaMon wrote:
I could say something here about abstention, masturbation, contraception, homosexual sex, sex beyond the point of fertility etc (just to mention a handful of things which are not conducive to procreation) though, I’m sure the logical fallacy police would be rather, ahem…aroused by this

Must be kinda nice to live in a Universe where everything is so black & white. [/quote]

Did you even read what I wrote above (in response to Mak defending your red herring that you are still waving around)?

How about you address my counterpoint to your accident scenario? I notice that one got lost in a storm of flapping fish. [/quote]

If I’d been involved in an accident & had a great chance of recovery, sure, I’d want to be revived. Who wouldn’t? (Though, having a great chance of recovery isn’t the example I gave).

However, in the case of a very young fetus, said fetus is hardly going to be a victim in the same sense you or I would be victims if we dropped dead any time soon. Why do I think this? Because we’ve forged a meaningful identity, we’ve lived a number of years & made various connections with other non-fetuses. Comparing a fetus to an adult is kinda like comparing the ingredients of a cake to a freshly baked cake.

To me, this is more a case of common sense psycholgy, as opposed to hiding behind technicalities.

If you had a 14 year old daughter that was raped & impregnated, would say a coerced birth would be the correct thing to do OR would that somehow be an exception?

467

Also, if abortion was made illegal…guess what happens here, yup, you guessed it! DIY abortions, it happened a helluva lot in the past

468

So, by your logic, we should be devoting every resource we have to the elderly?

The 14 year old daughter game you are trying to play is another kind of logical fallacy. I’ll answer your question if you can tell me which one it is.

469

[quote]GorillaMon wrote:
Also, if abortion was made illegal…guess what happens here, yup, you guessed it! DIY abortions, it happened a helluva lot in the past
[/quote]

I’m certain they were as prevalent as all the DIY rapes we witness nowadays.

Oh the humanity.

470

[quote]Cortes wrote:
So, by your logic, we should be devoting every resource we have to the elderly?

The 14 year old daughter game you are trying to play is another kind of logical fallacy. I’ll answer your question if you can tell me which one it is. [/quote]

It’s not a logical fallacy.

It’s a hypothetical.

Please step away from the logical fallacy list & re-connect with common sense for a second here.

471

[quote]GorillaMon wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:
So, by your logic, we should be devoting every resource we have to the elderly?

The 14 year old daughter game you are trying to play is another kind of logical fallacy. I’ll answer your question if you can tell me which one it is. [/quote]

It’s not a logical fallacy.

It’s a hypothetical.

Please step away from the logical fallacy list & re-connect with common sense for a second here.

[/quote]

You are right. It is not a logical fallacy. It is actually a number of them contained in a concise package. If the goal here is efficiency of equivocation, you are doing great:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-consequences.html

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-emotion.html

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-pity.html

and the most important one:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/two-wrongs-make-a-right.html

472

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]GorillaMon wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:
So, by your logic, we should be devoting every resource we have to the elderly?

The 14 year old daughter game you are trying to play is another kind of logical fallacy. I’ll answer your question if you can tell me which one it is. [/quote]

It’s not a logical fallacy.

It’s a hypothetical.

Please step away from the logical fallacy list & re-connect with common sense for a second here.

[/quote]

You are right. It is not a logical fallacy. It is actually a number of them contained in a concise package. If the goal here is efficiency of equivocation, you are doing great:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-consequences.html

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-emotion.html

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-pity.html

and the most important one:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/two-wrongs-make-a-right.html[/quote]

Dude, if you want to try & be uber rational about this. I can assure you, in relation to both this issue & many others, you’ll come to some very unpallatable conclusions.

Pointing out logical fallacies really doesn’t further your argument.

473

[quote]Cortes wrote:
So, by your logic, we should be devoting every resource we have to the elderly?

The 14 year old daughter game you are trying to play is another kind of logical fallacy. I’ll answer your question if you can tell me which one it is. [/quote]

I’m also lol’ing at this.

‘devoting every resource we have to the eldery’

Really air tight inference there dude. No leap logic OR exaggeration there whatsoever.

474

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ColumboSteel wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:
And did you really just say “t-vixen?” [/quote]

Yes I did just say T-vixen. You know…the women who are on this site. Like I said a few posts ago to knee, who oddly enough failed to respond, its real easy to sit on your side of the fence when the situation in question can not happen to you isnt it?[/quote]

Well…you know…statistically 50% of babies are male. So, statistically the male population has equal chance of dealing with being aborted before being born than the female population. Oh, yeah and I forgot half the baby is the fathers. So, if you’re going to argue the baby is “part” of the woman, then half of the child is “part” of the man. [/quote]

Way to completely miss the point. I meant that you can never become pregnant therefor no one will ever attempt to force their sense of morality on your body. Like I told knee, how would you feel if you were told you could no longer lift weights because someone else decided it was bad?

475

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ColumboSteel wrote:
Oh and guess what. If you had been aborted for whatever reason, or became a miscarriage, you would not give a damn because you never would have existed.[/quote]

Lol…that is a good joke. I actually spit out my sweet tea and bourbon while reading the last part of your statement.

So…in order for me to have been aborted, that of course means I would have to have been conceived. So sperm and egg would have to have met. Creating something with its own DNA genome, its own metabolism, and its own reaction to stimuli. So, obviously there would have to be something there for it to be aborted, something had to exist to have been aborted. So, are you really saying that I would have never existed if I was aborted…are you denying the existence of the embryo? Like we just image we’re aborting something, and really the embryo (or whatever you want to call it) that we aborted didn’t exist. Just fiction?

Please tell me this is not what you’re suggesting.[/quote]

Ummm no…you just laughed because you have a complete inability to comprehend. Exist as in have conscious thought. Do you have memories of being 2 months old as in 2 months from time of conception? Im guessing not, just as you have no memories of the time before you were concieved, almost as if…you didnt exist. In your own head buddy not in a physical sense. If course there was something there.

476

[quote]GorillaMon wrote:
Vasectomies are a sensible option for people that don’t want kids.
[/quote]

It’s really simple, if you aren’t open to having children…DON’T HAVE SEX. It’s the whole road thing, if you don’t wanna go North Carolina, don’t take the 40.

477

[quote]GorillaMon wrote:
I could say something here about abstention, masturbation, contraception, homosexual sex, sex beyond the point of fertility etc (just to mention a handful of things which are not conducive to procreation) though, I’m sure the logical fallacy police would be rather, ahem…aroused by this

Must be kinda nice to live in a Universe where everything is so black & white. [/quote]

You mean a place where we don’t pretend everyone can be right and not be sensitive…yeah I suppose so.

478

[quote]GorillaMon wrote:
Also, if abortion was made illegal…guess what happens here, yup, you guessed it! DIY abortions, it happened a helluva lot in the past
[/quote]

It happens helluva lot now. I know five women who died in Mexico in the last year and a half because they gave themselves abortions. I have heard from hundreds of others that their abortion was DIY. If abortion is wrong, it is wrong.

479

[quote]GorillaMon wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]GorillaMon wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:
So, by your logic, we should be devoting every resource we have to the elderly?

The 14 year old daughter game you are trying to play is another kind of logical fallacy. I’ll answer your question if you can tell me which one it is. [/quote]

It’s not a logical fallacy.

It’s a hypothetical.

Please step away from the logical fallacy list & re-connect with common sense for a second here.

[/quote]

You are right. It is not a logical fallacy. It is actually a number of them contained in a concise package. If the goal here is efficiency of equivocation, you are doing great:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-consequences.html

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-emotion.html

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-pity.html

and the most important one:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/two-wrongs-make-a-right.html[/quote]

Dude, if you want to try & be uber rational about this. I can assure you, in relation to both this issue & many others, you’ll come to some very unpallatable conclusions.

Pointing out logical fallacies really doesn’t further your argument.
[/quote]

What that the killing of innocent people is always wrong?

480

[quote]ColumboSteel wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ColumboSteel wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:
And did you really just say “t-vixen?” [/quote]

Yes I did just say T-vixen. You know…the women who are on this site. Like I said a few posts ago to knee, who oddly enough failed to respond, its real easy to sit on your side of the fence when the situation in question can not happen to you isnt it?[/quote]

Well…you know…statistically 50% of babies are male. So, statistically the male population has equal chance of dealing with being aborted before being born than the female population. Oh, yeah and I forgot half the baby is the fathers. So, if you’re going to argue the baby is “part” of the woman, then half of the child is “part” of the man. [/quote]

Way to completely miss the point.[/quote]

Nope, pretty sure I got the point, you just don’t get the picture.

Oh, so I can go rape someone, murder someone, have sex with whoever I want to (family, friends’ wives, &c.) snort cocaine, shoot up heroin, sell my body for sex, break into a bank…it’s awesome to be a man that no one forces their morality on my body.

Red herring, come up with something better. This is exactly like someone telling me that I can’t kill my own kid because of some secondary reason (development, location, dependency, &c.).