[quote]Oleena wrote:
There are many threads on whether the mother has the right to choose to kill, yet none that I saw about what to do when the life circumstances the mother knew she was baring her children into are threatening to kill.[/quote]
Easy for your non-aborted self to say.
I’m certain there are plenty of people who were born into the worst of conditions and used those conditions to become the proud, strong, successful people they have become. Thank God they didn’t have you there to suck them limb from limb from their mother’s womb with a vacuum because you knew better than they did what they could and couldn’t do with their own life.
See? I can use fallacious appeals to emotion, too. Just like your completely pointless context-less photographs.
Wow, rarely does someone one PWI genuinely disgust me.
Talk about playing God.
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You are not admitting that the act of creating life is playing God to begin with. It’s okay to play God and make a terrible life, but not to take it away?
Half-logic there.[/quote]
Ignoring your equivocation for the moment:
Do you believe the world would be better off had Oprah Winfrey been aborted?
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Obviously I realize the individuals in the world would be different if abortion was legalized throughout it.
You still didn’t address my question: do you believe it’s okay to play God by creating life?
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Trust me, I’m not avoiding your question. Just trying to reach the point more quickly. You answer mine and I promise to answer yours. [/quote]
See the posts above. My answer was meant to answer your question, but apparently it wasn’t very clear the way I put it the first time.
Creating a life is an incredible gift. Why do you make it such a simple act? Are you naturally or surgically sterile? When you are sterile and this world can handle no more people, then you can rant all you would like. Until then grow up, travel down to Chile and then come back. Then tell me of the problems they have there. After your vacation we can talk about the things you saw there.
[quote]Oleena wrote:
[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
How in the hell is killing of the child NOT playing the role of God?
[quote]Oleena wrote:
You still didn’t address my question: do you believe it’s okay to play God by creating life? [/quote]
[/quote]
It is playing the role of god. I’m not arguing that it isn’t.
My point is simply this: don’t argue that you are playing the role of god when choosing to end the life of your child before it enters the world but you are not playing the role of god when you choose to bring it into life. This is simply false. Either way, you are making decisions that your god says are part of his powers/responsibilities. When you make a child you are trying to act like god. It’s a huge responsibility. What gives you the right to make that decision?
It doesn’t matter who or who wouldn’t be born, and that’s a harsh, harsh fact. I do realize what it is to make that statement because I myself might have been aborted. The truth is, now that I’m in the world, in a great country where all of my needs are met and I’m loved, I’m happy for life. But it wouldn’t have mattered if mine or anyone else’s ended in the womb and all I knew was my mother’s body around me. At some point, we will all die anyway and our lives will not be of consequence after a certain period of time. That fact is the hardest to accept, but it’s true.
Do you really think populations of poor people wouldn’t exist or be as large if abortion was legalized? Oh wait! The people in Africa are starving because the governments there help those in need!! eye opening realization Not because other countries try to feed them and/or give them money. I am so glad you set me straight olee!!
[quote]Oleena wrote:
Furthermore, legalizing abortions throughout the world wouldn’t end population or even eradicate the poor. In places where it already exists, the poor and disadvantaged populations still reproduce, but they have smaller family sizes, meaning more resources for those that do exist.
I am not asking for the right for myself to kill off entire populations. I am proposing that you give the individual parent of each case the right to chose their family size. Many, in places where it is legal, have abortions when they are young and later have a family when they are emotionally and otherwise more stable. So none of the arguments about killing off massive numbers are even a point to debate.[/quote]
Where did I make it a simple act? I said it was a responsibility on par with being god! I asked what gives us the right to take that responsibility. Also, what gives us the rightnto act like god in bringing life into this world, but takes the away the right to act like god in choosing not to bring life into this world?
[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
Creating a life is an incredible gift. Why do you make it such a simple act? Are you naturally or surgically sterile? When you are sterile and this world can handle no more people, then you can rant all you would like. Until then grow up, travel down to Chile and then come back. Then tell me of the problems they have there. After your vacation we can talk about the things you saw there.
[quote]Oleena wrote:
There are many threads on whether the mother has the right to choose to kill, yet none that I saw about what to do when the life circumstances the mother knew she was baring her children into are threatening to kill.[/quote]
So, it’s just better for a child not to even have a chance? Oh, guess the child will live in poverty, just kill it. Sounds ridiculous Oleena. I’m sure you’ll be a great social worker.[/quote]
Chris, do you really believe that these children have a chance?
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Yes. What’s better a minuscule chance or no chance at all?
No, I don’t believe that populations of poor people wouldn’t exist, I was arguing the opposite, but adding that they would be slightly more advantaged due to the reduced family size. I have no idea how you got the opposite from that. Someone else on here was arguing that I was implying that whole populations should be killed off, and I was responding to that.
[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
Do you really think populations of poor people wouldn’t exist or be as large if abortion was legalized? Oh wait! The people in Africa are starving because the governments there help those in need!! eye opening realization Not because other countries try to feed them and/or give them money. I am so glad you set me straight olee!!
[quote]Oleena wrote:
Furthermore, legalizing abortions throughout the world wouldn’t end population or even eradicate the poor. In places where it already exists, the poor and disadvantaged populations still reproduce, but they have smaller family sizes, meaning more resources for those that do exist.
I am not asking for the right for myself to kill off entire populations. I am proposing that you give the individual parent of each case the right to chose their family size. Many, in places where it is legal, have abortions when they are young and later have a family when they are emotionally and otherwise more stable. So none of the arguments about killing off massive numbers are even a point to debate.[/quote]
[/quote]
So do you kill other people on a regular basis? Is the activity a daily event for you? If so, then you would be making the creation and ending of life, a simple act. Otherwise this act is not so simple.
If you do NOT want the child, do not partake in the activity which creates the life. Is the process foreign to you? Have you always been about immediate gratification?
[quote]Oleena wrote:
Where did I make it a simple act? I said it was a responsibility on par with being god! I asked what gives us the right to take that responsibility. Also, what gives us the rightnto act like god in bringing life into this world, but takes the away the right to act like god in choosing not to bring life into this world?
[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
Creating a life is an incredible gift. Why do you make it such a simple act? Are you naturally or surgically sterile? When you are sterile and this world can handle no more people, then you can rant all you would like. Until then grow up, travel down to Chile and then come back. Then tell me of the problems they have there. After your vacation we can talk about the things you saw there.
[quote]Oleena wrote:
What quality of life is worth being born for? Would you want your mother to have you if she knew this was what you would face for the entirety of your existence? [/quote]
All life is worth being born for.[/quote]
This is a ridiculously ignorant statement. The ONLY way I’d believe you is it you were willing to trade places with this kid, give away everything you currently have to the others, and not commit suicide before you naturally die. [/quote]
So, it’s ridiculous based on if I would trade places with these kids? Are you serious, either it is ridiculous or it is not. It has nothing to do with if I would do something or not.
And, to satisfy your curiosity. If it was physically possible to trade places, I would do it in a heart beat. I came from absolute poverty, and I’d go back if it helped one of these children. However, I am also prudent.
Again, YOU know how every person killed with an abortion would have turned out?
[quote]Oleena wrote:
No, I don’t believe that populations of poor people wouldn’t exist, I was arguing the opposite, but adding that they would be slightly more advantaged due to the reduced family size. I have no idea how you got the opposite from that. Someone else on here was arguing that I was implying that whole populations should be killed off, and I was responding to that.
[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
Do you really think populations of poor people wouldn’t exist or be as large if abortion was legalized? Oh wait! The people in Africa are starving because the governments there help those in need!! eye opening realization Not because other countries try to feed them and/or give them money. I am so glad you set me straight olee!!
[quote]Oleena wrote:
Furthermore, legalizing abortions throughout the world wouldn’t end population or even eradicate the poor. In places where it already exists, the poor and disadvantaged populations still reproduce, but they have smaller family sizes, meaning more resources for those that do exist.
I am not asking for the right for myself to kill off entire populations. I am proposing that you give the individual parent of each case the right to chose their family size. Many, in places where it is legal, have abortions when they are young and later have a family when they are emotionally and otherwise more stable. So none of the arguments about killing off massive numbers are even a point to debate.[/quote]
[/quote]
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[quote]Oleena wrote:
If the mother knows her child will be economically disadvantaged and she will place her child at risk by her own behaviors, do you really say “Too bad. That was the mother’s choice. The child still has a right to live”? When you are not going to take her in and protect her from her mother selling the child’s body for drugs? (and let’s face it, you aren’t or you would already be)[/quote]
Bad logic, we already pointed out that several of us adopt children or our families do. If every child that was economically disadvantaged was killed, we’d have no third world…As well, I wouldn’t be here and as we all know, no one can live without me.[/quote]
I, for one, would be totally sad if the third world ceased to exist! [/quote]
Would you as well be sad face if all the black women ceased to exist? Because as it is, the most dangerous place for a black woman to exist is in the womb.
[quote]Oleena wrote:
Abortion is easy to argue against when everyone you know has had a great life and you think everyone deserves the chance for that.
Truth is, not everyone is born with that as a possibility. Some mothers realize that and want to spare their children.[/quote]
I’m glad my mother didn’t “spare” me. Live is worth living, what’s the alternative? Being dead, no thanks.[/quote]
The thing is you were dead, did not exist, unborn, not living or however else you want to word it every second of every day sense the dawn of time till the day you were born. You did not mind that one bit did you?[/quote]
Yes, but when I was conceived, I was created. I had the right to be allowed to be born. Just like you have the right to life. Anyway, what’s makes it okay to kill someone in the womb and not outside the womb.
Oleena, if it’s okay to kill a child that is going to suffer in life, be economically disadvantaged, why not kill those children you posted pictures of that are actually suffering and currently living a horrible life?
Would you choose to be born into this situation if you had
Chris, do you really believe that these children have a chance?
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I would not. I do not want to take the real possibility that I will have to watch my parents be killed, that I will suffer unspeakable abuses of my humanity, and then starve to death. Or, that I will bear children and then watch them starve to death or sell them as some sort of slave so my others can eat. I would not wish this on myself and if my parents decided that they didn’t want that for me, I wouldn’t begrudge them in any way.
Would you choose to be born into this situation if you had
Chris, do you really believe that these children have a chance?
[/quote]
I would not. I do not want to take the real possibility that I will have to watch my parents be killed, that I will suffer unspeakable abuses of my humanity, and then starve to death. Or, that I will bear children and then watch them starve to death or sell them as some sort of slave so my others can eat. I would not wish this on myself and if my parents decided that they didn’t want that for me, I wouldn’t begrudge them in any way. [/quote]
Did you just misquote me so you can answer a question, looking as if I posed it to you?
And the question I asked is: if it’s okay to kill a child that is GOING to suffer in life, be economically disadvantaged, why not kill those children you posted pictures of that ARE actually suffering and CURRENTLY living a horrible life?
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Oleena, if it’s okay to kill a child that is going to suffer in life, be economically disadvantaged, why not kill those children you posted pictures of that are actually suffering and currently living a horrible life?[/quote]
I don’t know what to do once the parent has completed the task of bringing them into the world. Sometimes I think providing them the option of a painless death if they wanted to take it (unless you had a way of giving them a better life) would be more compassionate than telling them they’re a bad follower of whatever religion if they take their own life. Either way, quite a few do end their own life. Would you prefer to die by disease and starvation, or painlessly? Do you think these people deserve the right to choose a painless death if they are, in fact, assured to die (not saying they all are, just a hypothetical situation where one is too far gone).
I only advocate for sure giving the parent both rights of god in creation, instead of saying it’s okay for them to have one but not the other, or acting as if it’s not a responsibility to take VERY seriously in consideration of its reprecussions, but a random, glorious occurence.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Oleena, if it’s okay to kill a child that is going to suffer in life, be economically disadvantaged, why not kill those children you posted pictures of that are actually suffering and currently living a horrible life?[/quote]
I don’t know what to do once the parent has completed the task of bringing them into the world. Sometimes I think providing them the option of a painless death if they wanted to take it (unless you had a way of giving them a better life) would be more compassionate than telling them they’re a bad follower of whatever religion if they take their own life. Either way, quite a few do end their own life. Would you prefer to die by disease and starvation, or painlessly? Do you think these people deserve the right to choose a painless death if they are, in fact, assured to die (not saying they all are, just a hypothetical situation where one is too far gone).
I only advocate for sure giving the parent both rights of god in creation, instead of saying it’s okay for them to have one but not the other, or acting as if it’s not a responsibility to take VERY seriously in consideration of its reprecussions, but a random, glorious occurence.[/quote]
Let me get this right, you believe it okay to murder a fully born person because they are suffering, yes or no?
Of course not. This is getting ridiculous because we are saying the same thing; creation is a huge responsibility, as is choosing not to bring a child into the world. But I am arguing that they both belong to the parent and are god-like acts, and you are arguing that only one is a god-like act that doesn’t belong to the parent.
You really think every person who brings life into this world chose to do the act that started the life? I wish that were true.
[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
So do you kill other people on a regular basis? Is the activity a daily event for you? If so, then you would be making the creation and end of life, a simple act.
If you do NOT want the child, do not partake in the activity which creates the life. Is the process foreign to you? Have you always been about immediate gratification?
[quote]Oleena wrote:
Where did I make it a simple act? I said it was a responsibility on par with being god! I asked what gives us the right to take that responsibility. Also, what gives us the rightnto act like god in bringing life into this world, but takes the away the right to act like god in choosing not to bring life into this world?
[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
Creating a life is an incredible gift. Why do you make it such a simple act? Are you naturally or surgically sterile? When you are sterile and this world can handle no more people, then you can rant all you would like. Until then grow up, travel down to Chile and then come back. Then tell me of the problems they have there. After your vacation we can talk about the things you saw there.