Pro-Lifer Throws Incendiary Device at PP

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
281

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ColumboSteel wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Oleena wrote:
Abortion is easy to argue against when everyone you know has had a great life and you think everyone deserves the chance for that.

Truth is, not everyone is born with that as a possibility. Some mothers realize that and want to spare their children.[/quote]

I’m glad my mother didn’t “spare” me. Live is worth living, what’s the alternative? Being dead, no thanks.[/quote]

The thing is you were dead, did not exist, unborn, not living or however else you want to word it every second of every day sense the dawn of time till the day you were born. You did not mind that one bit did you?[/quote]

Yes, but when I was conceived, I was created. I had the right to be allowed to be born. Just like you have the right to life. Anyway, what’s makes it okay to kill someone in the womb and not outside the womb.[/quote]

Don’t know. In many cultures and throughout time, babies with defects are killed after birth.

We have a bunch of rules for when it’s okay to kill someone after they are born.

BTW, you just gave yourself the right to be born by your own reasoning, not by any natural process. Nothing gives you the right to be born any more than anything gives me the right to be rich. It may happen that way, if I get help from others and help myself. It may also turn out that your mother eats something that accidently kills you, that some of your genes go wrong and you are aborted, that your mom gets stressed out and accidenly aborts you, whatever. Being born isn’t a right. It’s a lucky chance, especially given that 10-20% of the time meiosis doesn’t work properly in humans and the fetus is aborted. Between your mother’s body, physical situation, and mental decisions, it’s a crap-shoot.

282

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Oleena wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Oleena, if it’s okay to kill a child that is going to suffer in life, be economically disadvantaged, why not kill those children you posted pictures of that are actually suffering and currently living a horrible life?[/quote]

I don’t know what to do once the parent has completed the task of bringing them into the world. Sometimes I think providing them the option of a painless death if they wanted to take it (unless you had a way of giving them a better life) would be more compassionate than telling them they’re a bad follower of whatever religion if they take their own life. Either way, quite a few do end their own life. Would you prefer to die by disease and starvation, or painlessly? Do you think these people deserve the right to choose a painless death if they are, in fact, assured to die (not saying they all are, just a hypothetical situation where one is too far gone).

I only advocate for sure giving the parent both rights of god in creation, instead of saying it’s okay for them to have one but not the other, or acting as if it’s not a responsibility to take VERY seriously in consideration of its reprecussions, but a random, glorious occurence.[/quote]

Let me get this right, you believe it okay to murder a fully born person because they are suffering, yes or no?[/quote]

I’m pretty sure what I said was “offer them the option of a painless death, if they want to take it”. If you want to call that murder, go ahead. I was under the impression that giving them the choice made it not murder, but I can see how you might twist it.

I know what you’re going to say next “Well the parents did give them a choice.” No, but the parents also didn’t ask them if they’d prefer not to be born given the circumstances. So either way, they don’t get a choice. Moot point.

283

BTW, Brother Chris, there is no reason why you can’t switch lives with one of these people you wish life on. I can actually hook you up with that.

My guess is, though, that your ideals and your actions will not meet up on this one, and in the process you’ll make up a lot of excuses, because the truth is, you really wouldn’t have that life for yourself.

284

Sorry I’ve missed so much of this extremely edifying discussion. It’s been night time over here.

Oleena, you should stop painting, you don’t have much corner left. So far you have either justified or come razor close to justifying:

abortion
infanticide
eugenics
euthanasia
suicide

You have equated the creation of life as being on equal footing as snuffing it out.

You have devalued the lives of poor and destitute everywhere.

With one sweeping generalization after another, you stated that the lives of those of us who need the most help and protection are not worth living at all. That they would be better off dead, rather than have the same fair shot at life that you had.

Perhaps most offensive of all, you have assummed in all of this that your life is somehow more valuable than all of these “poor” wretches that you would have us sweep under the rug.

You are truly a sick girl, Oleena. And I mean that. You are the end result of relativism. This is where it leads.

285

It is honestly ridiculous that you believe women should have the right to kill a child. Please remind me the event which christens children the ability to choose their own lives?

[quote]Oleena wrote:
Of course not. This is getting ridiculous because we are saying the same thing; creation is a huge responsibility, as is choosing not to bring a child into the world. But I am arguing that they both belong to the parent and are god-like acts, and you are arguing that only one is a god-like act that doesn’t belong to the parent.

You really think every person who brings life into this world chose to do the act that started the life? I wish that were true.

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
So do you kill other people on a regular basis? Is the activity a daily event for you? If so, then you would be making the creation and end of life, a simple act.

If you do NOT want the child, do not partake in the activity which creates the life. Is the process foreign to you? Have you always been about immediate gratification?

[quote]Oleena wrote:
Where did I make it a simple act? I said it was a responsibility on par with being god! I asked what gives us the right to take that responsibility. Also, what gives us the rightnto act like god in bringing life into this world, but takes the away the right to act like god in choosing not to bring life into this world?

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
Creating a life is an incredible gift. Why do you make it such a simple act? Are you naturally or surgically sterile? When you are sterile and this world can handle no more people, then you can rant all you would like. Until then grow up, travel down to Chile and then come back. Then tell me of the problems they have there. After your vacation we can talk about the things you saw there.

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286

Genuine Question: Do all people who are anti-abortion support sexual education and contraceptives (Brother Chris don’t bother answering that; my Dad is Catholic I KNOW what response you will give me)?

This is just bearing in mind that 10,000 years of human civilisation has shown that merely forbidding it has not done very much to stop unwanted pregnancies

287

What I find most interesting in this is the lack of a single word of condemnation from anyone outside of the usual opponent of abortion.

If one of the posters from “my side” were saying anything even remotely resembling some of the arguments that have been put forth by Oleena here, you guys would tear us apart like starving feral pigs.

Instead, the silence has been deafening. Telling, that.

288

[quote]Bambi wrote:
Genuine Question: Do all people who are anti-abortion support sexual education and contraceptives (Brother Chris don’t bother answering that; my Dad is Catholic I KNOW what response you will give me)?

This is just bearing in mind that 10,000 years of human civilisation has shown that merely forbidding it has not done very much to stop unwanted pregnancies

[/quote]

Of course I support sexual education. By parents and care-givers. Certainly not by the State. Good Lord no.

Nor do I support State distribution of contraceptives. That would be ridiculous.

And if this is supposed to be a threshold question for the pro-life crowd it is a red herring. Whether or not you support sexual education has no bearing upon whether or not abortion is wrong.

289

[quote]Oleena wrote:
choosing not to bring a child into the world.
[/quote]

I’ll stop you right here, there is a very easy and very non-lethal way to do this. If we’re going to act like gods, should we not have the responsibility of gods then?

If you wish not to bring a child into the world, then you should abstain from sex as we know sex leads to making babies. You can throw road blocks in the way, but the road ultimately leads to the same destination with or without road blocks: making babies. If you wish not to reach that destination, then don’t make that turn. Obvious solution is obvious.

290

[quote]Oleena wrote:
Don’t know. In many cultures and throughout time, babies with defects are killed after birth.[/quote]

So, because I’m dyslexic and have ‘mental disabilities’ and was born with horrible asthma which kept me in the hospital for most of my youth up until about age 12, that is reason enough to kill me? When I was younger, I was deemed illiterate and mentally handicap (or, as the counselor put it “mentally defect and utterly retarded in my ability to read”).

[quote]
We have a bunch of rules for when it’s okay to kill someone after they are born.[/quote]

And, when is it okay to kill someone after they are born?

[quote]
BTW, you just gave yourself the right to be born by your own reasoning, not by any natural process. Nothing gives you the right to be born any more than anything gives me the right to be rich. It may happen that way, if I get help from others and help myself. It may also turn out that your mother eats something that accidently kills you, that some of your genes go wrong and you are aborted, that your mom gets stressed out and accidenly aborts you, whatever. Being born isn’t a right. It’s a lucky chance, especially given that 10-20% of the time meiosis doesn’t work properly in humans and the fetus is aborted. Between your mother’s body, physical situation, and mental decisions, it’s a crap-shoot.[/quote]

Um, we come to Natural Law through reasoning? Or, are we going off ‘natural process’ as might is right? Because if that is what we’re doing that leads to the idea that if we just blow up and assassinate those that try and kill babies, then we’re right. I presume that you do not agree.

Um…that doesn’t make sense, I don’t believe I said I have the right to be born, I said I have the right to be allowed to be born, as in not being willfully killed in the womb. So, you’re advising a might is right. Dangerous road, young lady. There is a difference between accidentally killing me and willfully termination, abortion is the latter not the former may I remind you.

I never said being born is a right, I said I have a right to be allowed to be born, as in a right to ‘life.’ Yes, it is a crap-shoot, no reason to complicate the situation by sending down the nukes in order to stop yourself from going down the road you willfully turned down.

291

[quote]Oleena wrote:

I’m pretty sure what I said was “offer them the option of a painless death, if they want to take it”. If you want to call that murder, go ahead. I was under the impression that giving them the choice made it not murder, but I can see how you might twist it.[/quote]

Murder is the killing of a person with malicious aforethought. Is it not, killing someone innocent is malicious in itself, and if you know that they want to is forethought. Killing the person is killing, and you have a recipe for murder.

[quote]
I know what you’re going to say next “Well the parents did give them a choice.” No, but the parents also didn’t ask them if they’d prefer not to be born given the circumstances. So either way, they don’t get a choice. Moot point.[/quote]

I am sure if you came up to any of those children you posted pictures of with a gun or a machete offering them life or death, I would almost guarantee, they would ask for life.

292

[quote]Cortes wrote:
What I find most interesting in this is the lack of a single word of condemnation from anyone outside of the usual opponent of abortion.

If one of the posters from “my side” were saying anything even remotely resembling some of the arguments that have been put forth by Oleena here, you guys would tear us apart like starving feral pigs.

Instead, the silence has been deafening. Telling, that. [/quote]

Well I am pro choice and I think its pathetic that people beleve they have the right to tell a woman what she has the right to do and not to do. Could you tell a loved one who had been raped that she no longer had the right to decide if she wants to be pregnant or not? If you could…well I feel sorry for your loved ones.

293

[quote]Oleena wrote:
BTW, Brother Chris, there is no reason why you can’t switch lives with one of these people you wish life on. I can actually hook you up with that.

My guess is, though, that your ideals and your actions will not meet up on this one, and in the process you’ll make up a lot of excuses, because the truth is, you really wouldn’t have that life for yourself.[/quote]

I guess you missed my prudence comment. Yes, everything would be dandy in this world if the rich became poor and the poor became right, except then we’d just have the same situation.

And, I do once and awhile switch with a poor person (although since I don’t have much money as it is, they really don’t get my position so not sure how the position switch would change). And, I’m sure I know more resources to become poor than you do, half my friends living willingly in perpetual poverty and most of them live in third world countries helping the poor as a living.

I do a lot for poor people (not in the sense of I give a lot of money, because I don’t have a lot of money), I spend my school year raising my salary so I can go to third world countries during the summer and bringing immediate relief (food, clothing, medicine, &c.) and stable relief (buy bringing seed, farming equipment, materials for infrastructure) to different villages. Basically, I live on what a third world person in that village lives on except for a few exceptions (like technology in order to contact administration back in America and benefactors). And, the salary is not so I can spend it’s basically fundraising, so I can go there and come back. As well, so we can get supplies to do the mission.

294

[quote]Bambi wrote:
Genuine Question: Do all people who are anti-abortion support sexual education and contraceptives (Brother Chris don’t bother answering that; my Dad is Catholic I KNOW what response you will give me)?[/quote]

Well that is a little presumptuous I whole heartedly believe in sexual education and contraceptive methods. Just because my form (and the best I might add) of contraception is abstinence and NFP doesn’t mean I don’t believe in contraception. As well with sexual education, it should be the parents responsibility. Ask Jewbacca, he wrote out one of the best sex education I’ve ever seen.

295

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Oleena wrote:
BTW, Brother Chris, there is no reason why you can’t switch lives with one of these people you wish life on. I can actually hook you up with that.

My guess is, though, that your ideals and your actions will not meet up on this one, and in the process you’ll make up a lot of excuses, because the truth is, you really wouldn’t have that life for yourself.[/quote]

I guess you missed my prudence comment. Yes, everything would be dandy in this world if the rich became poor and the poor became right, except then we’d just have the same situation.

And, I do once and awhile switch with a poor person (although since I don’t have much money as it is, they really don’t get my position so not sure how the position switch would change). And, I’m sure I know more resources to become poor than you do, half my friends living willingly in perpetual poverty and most of them live in third world countries helping the poor as a living.

I do a lot for poor people (not in the sense of I give a lot of money, because I don’t have a lot of money), I spend my school year raising my salary so I can go to third world countries during the summer and bringing immediate relief (food, clothing, medicine, &c.) and stable relief (buy bringing seed, farming equipment, materials for infrastructure) to different villages. Basically, I live on what a third world person in that village lives on except for a few exceptions (like technology in order to contact administration back in America and benefactors). And, the salary is not so I can spend it’s basically fundraising, so I can go there and come back. As well, so we can get supplies to do the mission.[/quote]

You keep saying that you dont have alot of money but I would wager that you have a roof over your head, a matress to sleep on and good food in your fridge. People in the countries I have seen would probably give an arm and a leg for that.

296

So Columbo, define the unborn using science which is universally accepted.

[quote]ColumboSteel wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:
What I find most interesting in this is the lack of a single word of condemnation from anyone outside of the usual opponent of abortion.

If one of the posters from “my side” were saying anything even remotely resembling some of the arguments that have been put forth by Oleena here, you guys would tear us apart like starving feral pigs.

Instead, the silence has been deafening. Telling, that. [/quote]

Well I am pro choice and I think its pathetic that people beleve they have the right to tell a woman what she has the right to do and not to do. Could you tell a loved one who had been raped that she no longer had the right to decide if she wants to be pregnant or not? If you could…well I feel sorry for your loved ones.[/quote]

297

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
So Columbo, define the unborn using science which is universally accepted.

[quote]ColumboSteel wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:
What I find most interesting in this is the lack of a single word of condemnation from anyone outside of the usual opponent of abortion.

If one of the posters from “my side” were saying anything even remotely resembling some of the arguments that have been put forth by Oleena here, you guys would tear us apart like starving feral pigs.

Instead, the silence has been deafening. Telling, that. [/quote]

Well I am pro choice and I think its pathetic that people beleve they have the right to tell a woman what she has the right to do and not to do. Could you tell a loved one who had been raped that she no longer had the right to decide if she wants to be pregnant or not? If you could…well I feel sorry for your loved ones.[/quote]
[/quote]

In what way, shape or form does the definition of unborn have to do with me thinking that anyone who believes the above is a pathetic person? I am assuming that sense that is the response you quoted then thats what your question is in relation to. If not then I used unborn in the idea that if you have not been born, ill go one step further and say conceived, then you do not exist, unborn, not living, dead. That clear things up?

298

This debate is 12 pages too long. I only got like four pages in before I gave up. Anyways Roe vs. Wade ruled in favor of a womens right to privacy and thus protecting and allowing her to make her own decesion regarding her pregnacy. That was almost forty years ago and overturning such a ruling would create such a new precedent allowing for other cases to be reexamined and new rulings to be made. Rest assured the Supreme Court and the rest of the Gov does not want that. So I feel it safe to say abortion is here to stay. I guess were going to have to agree to disagree and learn to cope with each others opposing viewpoints. Really though the problem lies in our culture. Rates of unwanted pregancy and abortion are startingly lower in Europe and else where were sex is openly discussed and viewed as a normal part of life unlike here in the states where it is a taboo subject. Minimize occurance of unwanted pregnancy and you get rid of abortion.

299

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Oleena wrote:
choosing not to bring a child into the world.
[/quote]

I’ll stop you right here, there is a very easy and very non-lethal way to do this. If we’re going to act like gods, should we not have the responsibility of gods then?

If you wish not to bring a child into the world, then you should abstain from sex as we know sex leads to making babies. You can throw road blocks in the way, but the road ultimately leads to the same destination with or without road blocks: making babies. If you wish not to reach that destination, then don’t make that turn. Obvious solution is obvious.[/quote]

Excellent post, Chris.

/thread

300

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Oleena wrote:
choosing not to bring a child into the world.
[/quote]

I’ll stop you right here, there is a very easy and very non-lethal way to do this. If we’re going to act like gods, should we not have the responsibility of gods then?

If you wish not to bring a child into the world, then you should abstain from sex as we know sex leads to making babies. You can throw road blocks in the way, but the road ultimately leads to the same destination with or without road blocks: making babies. If you wish not to reach that destination, then don’t make that turn. Obvious solution is obvious.[/quote]

Excellent post, Chris.

/thread
[/quote]

Yeah, fuck all those woman who get raped and should no longer have a choice. Obvious solution is obvious.