if over training is largely a crock of shit and many people draw that as a logical conclusion, then the other logical conclusion is that good nutrition is largely a crock of shit too no? Prison food is 3x a day and probably not high in efa’s or per massive eating protocols.
I’m surprised Chad hasn’t come in on this thread yet. Chad, you probably have plenty to offer on the topic of overtrianing. Lata.
MBE: “Poolsharkmonkey. Since 1905.”
-Eric
“…it is a documented fact that ‘relatively speaking’ the XYY population in prisons is much higher than outside prisons. This does suggest some type of causal effect.”
Not really. Association alone does not support causation. I think you missed my point, but that’s okay. I enjoy discussing criminology and social research theory.
Let me use a very simple example here. If one were to (hypothetically) examine automobile crash statistics, one would find that red cars are more likely to be involved in fatal accidents than, for example, white ones. From the (purely hypothetical) data set, one would be inclined to believe that red cars are more dangerous than white cars. This would be an error, obviously, as the color of the car does not have anything to do with how safe it is. The real culprit is something that occurs temporally prior to the accident: the driving habits of people who are attracted to red cars. Once you control for driving habits (and anything else that occurs temporally prior to the accident that may be relevant-age, gender, socioeconomic status, etc.), the association between red paint jobs and fatal accidents goes away. Thus, the argument that red cars are more dangerous is proven fallacious.
It’s the same with prisons. Let’s say that, instead of extra Y chromosomes, you look at smoking habits. Now, I have no data to support this (and it isn’t crucial that I do anyway for the purposes of this argument), but let us assume that prisoners smoke more than non-prisoners. Let us also assume that prisoners, on average, have more muscle than non-prisoners. Using the very same argument structure that you pose about genetic makeup, I can argue that heavy smoking will lead to increased muscle growth in weight trainers. We know that this is false, of course. But it appears to be supported by the limited data. Thus, association alone is not sufficient to support causation.
“…BTW,I am only 21, I took these classes last year.”
This is neither a slam on you nor bragging on my part, but if you continue your coursework, specifically in statistics and social research methodology, you’ll get my point. I may have graduated years ago, but this still remains a passion of mine. I even kept my books (and I was very tempted to sell them back for post-finals beer money). :)
Jack Dublin: Thanks. Not all meatheads are afraid of books. LOL.
T-END: I have no information on the data you asked about. The only thing I know for sure about female athletes is that they smell better after a shower. Usually.
Thanks again for all the replies, this has been quite an interesting series of responses! There’s one thing mentioned above that strikes a funny cord in my plausability sensors, though…while testing for an excess of XYY chromosomed individuals would be easy in prison, how the HELL would anyone be able to run a test of who had high testosterone levels BEFORE they went into prison??? Nobody I’ve ever known has been randomly tested for T levels…hell, it’s not always possible to talk your doctor or insurance company into a T level test if you WANTED one! So who’s doing all these T level tests to determine what the T levels of prisoners were before they went into prison? I think that sounds like a crappy extrapolation of tests of existing prisoners, who do tend to have high testosterone. However I think the tired old ‘high T men are more likely to commit crimes’ argument is a bit of modern-day anti-testosterone wishful thinking extrapolated from mediocre correlation (without evidence of causation, given the high testosterone tendency in male politicians and successful businessmen as well…although there are people who would argue for a high degree of criminal behavior in sucessful politicians!).
I suppose calling overtraining “a crock of shit” may have been a tad extreme. I probably should have said overrated, but “crock of shit” is my phrase of the week 
Anyway, a few points: 1) It would be interesting to see if Mickey’s routine increased his strength dramatically or if the results were primarily hypertrophical (I know it’s not a word, but it should be…its fun to say, try it…maybe we could have Bill Roberts make up a rhyme for its pronunciation 
Anyway, I’m sure Mickey got stronger, but quality strength gains seem incompatible with this type of program. 2) I’d hardly call a prison diet “good nutrition,” but it is probably adequate. It is possible to gain muscle without following “massive eating protocols.” That is, even though Mickey probably didn’t have a food log, food scale, etc, he was still able to put on roughly 40 lbs of muscle. It’s obvious that whatever he was doing worked. 3) Say it again: “hypertrophical.” See?? 4) My assertion that overtraining is a crock of shit (overrated) is based on my personal experience and, I think, supported by this story and others like it. Amongst the many programs I have employed, I derived the least benefit (strenght and hypertrophy) from Ian King’s programs which, coincidentally enough, IMHO, belabor the point that overtraining is to be avoided at all costs. On the other hand, I’ve had unbelievable results with Waterbury’s 100 reps and HST, two programs which seem, at least to me, to be pushing the overtraining envelope. I think some people get too caught up in the fear that, “Oh my god, I’ve done 8 bicep curls, if I do one more, I’ll overtrain!” I’m not advocating 3-hour Arnold-type marathon workouts, but I think overtraining is an unfortunate whiplash of this type of training. I’m not trying to bash Ian King, but I’m sure someone is going to argue, “But Ian King has trained x-number of people with great results! How many have you trained??” Here is my answer: one…me.
Its all that “testosterone” he swallowed from his cellmate.
elegua you said"without evidence of causation, given the high testosterone tendency in male politicians and successful businessmen as well!.."where did you get this information?Iv’e read that succesful bussinessman don’t have high testosterone levels?I might be wrong,but do you know where you got this information?
elegua you said"without evidence of causation, given the high testosterone tendency in male politicians and successful businessmen as well!.."where did you get this information?Iv’e read that succesful bussinessman don’t have high testosterone levels?I might be wrong,but do you know where you got this information?
I shall find it, of course when I find it you or I or both of us might disagree with its methodology or conclusions drawn from a small sample base. If I recall the details of the study…or probably more appropriately ‘survey,’ it involved t-levels of successful high-level businessmen, primarily business owners, high-level attourneys, and the like…not just some mid-managing yuppie who happens to own a Beemer. Now, if I recall, it was only a survey of around 20 people, so like I said, it might not be conclusive by ANY means, but I’ll still dig up the reference.
You guys are making me laugh. ‘Overtraining’ and ‘genetics’ are just your ways of getting out of doing some serious squatting & deadlifting.
O’Shea, I don’t really remember much else on XYY. We probably touched on the social aspect of XYY in my Psychology class but I don’t really remember any solid facts.
Demo, you are right, although it does indicate association, there may not be causation. Call it a hunch or intuition, but I still believe there is. I’m pursuing a Ph.D. in History with minors in Philosophy and Theology so I doubt I’ll be encountering studies in that arena again. The CJ class was just for personal edification and it fit a time slot. You really have to take statistics with a grain of salt though because there are so many variables that can render them less than accurate, like “business men with higher test levels” hehe Yea, when I think of testosterone the first thing that pops in my mind is some politician with a briefcase and suit. Come on! Actually, I think I remember reading something that suggested just the opposite.