Press 1 For English

[endgamer711]

[quote]hueyOT wrote:
endgamer711 wrote:
hueyOT wrote:
there definitely seems to be a strong sense of nationalism among european french people and canadian french people. it appears to be a very elitist attitude that leads to discrimination against other languages and cultures.

Would that be anything like American exceptionalism?

probably a lot like it, actually.

it’s just interesting that this same sense of french nationaism exists in two places far away from one anotherL quebec and france. and they’re not united, for the most part.
[/quote]

Well, that’s the whole “francophonie” concept. United by language. It’s really the same thing as our own “special relationship” with the U.K. Except that we’re less uptight about language than are the French speakers: both sides agree we are “two peoples divided by a common language.”

Actually, the way I read the French and Quebecois is that they are afraid of being marginalized, as a culture. Maybe the Quebecois add some additional elements of regionalism to their nationalism.

[pookie]

[quote]hueyOT wrote:
then they better learn french, in that case! maybe you already know, but quebec has discriminatory laws against english.[/quote]

Alternatively, you could see it as the rest of Canada not upholding one of its two official languages. For a fun diversion, go to a Manitoban tourism office and try to get information in French.

it’s very strange considering it’s a canadian province. but hey, we’re a strange country.

What do you make of the federal government’s motion to recognize Quebec as “a nation within Canada” that was voted through last week?

[pat]

[quote]TQB wrote:
Seriously, next time drop a line on the site. Some of us might find a gap to give you the tour. A hint, it does involve beer…
[/quote]

I’ll take you up on that offer. That’s a part of Europe I have not seen and would love too. I like Belgian beers too, though they are not as good a Czech beers

[hueyOT]

[quote]pookie wrote:
Alternatively, you could see it as the rest of Canada not upholding one of its two official languages. For a fun diversion, go to a Manitoban tourism office and try to get information in French.
[/quote]

i do see it that way, in many respects. if canada is serious about french being a second official language, then canada should require basic fluency in french in order to earn a high school diploma. but this is not required. you could also argue that some french should be mandatory in post-secondary education.

this is not the case, however, and many canadians do NOT learn french because the educational and social pressures do not lead them to do so.

personally, i do not think that french should be an official language of canada, as it serves to benefit a minority of canadians and leads to disadvantages for the majority of canadians.

[quote]What do you make of the federal government’s motion to recognize Quebec as “a nation within Canada” that was voted through last week?
[/quote]

it’s s a strange motion, merely symbolic. and it’s sad to see the government and media waste so much time and effort on such fruity things. there is no doubt that french canadians ARE a nation. they clearly have a shared sense of history, lnaguage, culture, food, etc… however, the state does not need to recognize this as there are many such groups within canada who also qualify as nations. chinese canadians, arab canadians, russian canadians, indian canadians, etc… but they are all still canadians. the government does not need to recognize a disinct status for any purpose.

it’s sad that there seem to be so many nationalistic quebecois out there who feel the need to have government endorsment of their distinct nature. i do not need legislation to remind myself that i belong to a distinct minority group that qualifies as a nation. other minority groups do no ask for this government distinction.

again, of course quebecois ARE a nation… but so what? so are many other minority groups within canada. it is silly to pass symbolic motions to reinforce nationalistic feelings of a minority group.

[Lorisco]

[quote]Monkey23 wrote:
-Im not a racist in anyway and I dont want to be hounded for expressing my views.-

Why is it that everyday and everywhere I look I see that many of the products that I can buy in our stores also have to be written in spanish. As for the title too, I cant call any type of help line for anything with out proceeding in my own lanugage.

THEY NEED TO LEARN OUR LANGUAGE. PEROID

Can we not see that our ways of life are being changed in front of our eyes without even knowing it? Why do kids in our schools have to take spanish, when the own native speakers could learn ours? Is it right for us as Americans to alter our way of life to learn apart of theirs when WE are America? Im not only picking on Mexicans but also any other immigrants who think they can come here to make us change our ways of life.

If the government is allowing Mexicans or any other types of immigrants to come into our country legally or illegally surely they would find a better system of teaching these people to speak our language.

I understand the circumstances in Mexico and I realize that its not a very good place to live, Iv been there, and not the good parts either. I mean if I had a better chance to have a better life in another country then I would want to move there also.

But that does not mean that I would force those country men to learn my language to better suit me. I am perfecty fine with people comming to live in our country and having a better life style, I just think that we shouldnt be forced to learn for them.

Another thing, a while back when some controversy was building up over security between the American/Mexican borders, there were hundreds of Mexican Americans at my capital protesting. Is it right for them to tell us how to run OUR country?

What are some of your views of this?

As I said before I am not racist and I welcome anyone to America to better their lives, I just cant stand the fact that we must change so manythings just to suit them. Is this just me or am I wrong to think this ?

[/quote]

Historically English was the language of business. The businesses with the most money and influence in the world spoke English. Now that more people from other racial backgrounds are becoming more affluent, English is not the main language of business in the World.

So businesses are catering to people from other countries by making it easy to communicate in their native language. People who don’t speak English have money too. So if we maintain a English-centric focus as you suggest, other non-US companies would come in to fill the void.

And that would be money lost to outside companies. So having signs, books, help lines, etc in other languages is just a good business strategy.

My x sister in law was hired by a contracting firm as an interpreter in Ohio to help with the Spanish speaking clients, and she makes good money.

So don’t view this as threatening, view it as opportunity.

[vroom]

[quote]hueyOT wrote:
i do see it that way, in many respects. if canada is serious about french being a second official language, then canada should require basic fluency in french in order to earn a high school diploma. but this is not required. you could also argue that some french should be mandatory in post-secondary education.
[/quote]
I’ll disagree with you here a little bit.

As an official language then citizens should be able to receive services from government offices in that language.

While it would be nice if everyone knew all the official languages, I don’t think it is right to make it an absolute requirement, but that it should certainly be available as a choice.

Finally though, I wish it had been taught to me as I was growing up, perhaps starting with the first years of school on up. I’d be very happy to be bilingual right now, but unfortunately I’m not.

I also agree that the Quebecois should stop looking for insult and injury and just go about their business. However, the fact that English is overpowering the world seems to get mixed up in the relations between French and English in Canada.

It isn’t the fault of English speaking Canadians, don’t take it personally, it’s a worldwide phenomenon. Even splitting off from Canada and being your own nation won’t fix it.

[hueyOT]

[quote]Lorisco wrote:
Historically English was the language of business. The businesses with the most money and influence in the world spoke English. Now that more people from other racial backgrounds are becoming more affluent, English is not the main language of business in the World. [/quote]

i don’t know what you mean by ‘historically’. you need to give some context. i agree with the rest of your post, though. it’s really all about business adaptation.

[hueyOT]

[quote]vroom wrote:

I’ll disagree with you here a little bit.

As an official language then citizens should be able to receive services from government offices in that language.

While it would be nice if everyone knew all the official languages, I don’t think it is right to make it an absolute requirement, but that it should certainly be available as a choice.

Finally though, I wish it had been taught to me as I was growing up, perhaps starting with the first years of school on up. I’d be very happy to be bilingual right now, but unfortunately I’m not.

I also agree that the Quebecois should stop looking for insult and injury and just go about their business. However, the fact that English is overpowering the world seems to get mixed up in the relations between French and English in Canada.

It isn’t the fault of English speaking Canadians, don’t take it personally, it’s a worldwide phenomenon. Even splitting off from Canada and being your own nation won’t fix it.[/quote]

ok hang on… if both english and french and official lagnuages of canada, why is it only english that’s required all the way through high school <maybe in quebec french is required throughout high school, as well> and often in university and college?

there is a double standard here. we need to emphasize both languages reasonably equally in our education systems if we are serious about them being official languages. let’s no forget that in canada we have a ridiculously bloated government, government spending makes up over 50% of our GDP, and many government jobs require biligualism… this lends a significant advantage to francophones as they are under much more social and governmental pressure to learn english than anglophones are to learn french.

there’s more to being an official language than simply offering servies in both french and english. i think french must be removed as an official language of canada until the government gets serious about emphasizing its importance through public education. it must be made mandatory.

but realistically, all that is accomplished by having french as an official second language is lend an unfair advantage to francophones in regards to obtaining government employment.

i never said anyone should be forced to learn anything unnecessary. but just as english is mandatory throughout high school and often in post-secondary schooling, so should french if we’re going to be serious about it being an official language beside english.

and yes i agree, quebecois need to shut the fuck up about their special status. there are many nations living within canada, and there is nothing about french culture that is better than any other culture within canada. we live in an egalitarian society, and we should not lend special privileges, even if symbolic, to any nation/minority/ethnicity. they have the same rights and freedoms and opportunities as the rest of us. that should be good enough.

like i said, you won’t see chinese canadians, indian canadians, arab canadians, etc, asking for special treatment of recognition of their distinct status. they don’t need government endorsement to feel good about themselves. :-\

[LIFTICVSMAXIMVS]

[quote]endgamer711 wrote:
Nevertheless, formerly at least you could usually get some kind of cooperation if you kept trying. But if you wimp out immediately and start hollering for the nearest English speaker, don’t expect much.

There are places in Europe where most folks also speak English. France is not one of them. Maybe neither is Belgium.[/quote]

I found beer to be the international language in that part of the world. Finally, something we can all agree on!

I’m not too worried about having English available to me, after all, that is why we go to other countries, right? I just think it is funny that in the train station information booth written in English was a sign which stated what not no ask information about.

My only advise to travellers who cannot get by in French (not necessarily needing to be fluent) is to make your travel plans in advance and don’t expect to be able to wing it…unless you are up for an adventure and criticism.

Not that I want to start an other argument but why isn’t there a common language in Europe? It seems to me all the northern European countries speak English better than most Americans yet in southern Europe they don’t speak English as much but seem to be way more tolerant of our inability to speak their language. Is it a matter of pride with education? It is my understanding that the French are capable of speaking English quite well it is just that they don’t choose to because there is a difference in having to speak a foriegn language and choosing to.

I’m not even suggesting that English be the common tongue but having one language spoken in certain situations would allow any individual to communicate from any country. There are regions in some European countries that don’t even speak the offial language of that country. I couldn’t imagine dealing with that in my own country. Other than that I suppose laguage barriers are the only thing left in some of these countries with the EU gaining a stronger hold.

[vroom]

[quote]hueyOT wrote:
ok hang on… if both english and french and official lagnuages of canada, why is it only english that’s required all the way through high school <maybe in quebec french is required throughout high school, as well> and often in university and college?
[/quote]

Being officially recognized doesn’t mean that all citizens have to speak it. It means those that do so should be able to receive services. That is all…

I’m pretty certain English speaking people are able to choose an education in French if they wish to do so.

[quote]there is a double standard here. we need to emphasize both languages reasonably equally in our education systems if we are serious about them being official languages. let’s no forget that in canada we have a ridiculously bloated government, government spending makes up over 50% of our GDP, and many government jobs require biligualism… this lends a significant advantage to francophones as they are under much more social and governmental pressure to learn english than anglophones are to learn french.
[/quote]
I disagree. It’s supply and demand as well as cost. If nobody out west wants to learn French, why should it be mandatory for everyone to learn it? That’s a tremendous expense for a group that doesn’t event want it.

It’s not about forcing people in Canada to be French, it’s about ensuring French Canadians aren’t excluded from Canada.

there’s more to being an official language than simply offering servies in both french and english. i think french must be removed as an official language of canada until the government gets serious about emphasizing its importance through public education. it must be made mandatory.

but realistically, all that is accomplished by having french as an official second language is lend an unfair advantage to francophones in regards to obtaining government employment.

Where is the unfair advantage? Is it because they actually speak both French and English? That’s not an unfair advantage, that’s a skill that is in demand that most English speaking people don’t bother to consider.

i never said anyone should be forced to learn anything unnecessary. but just as english is mandatory throughout high school and often in post-secondary schooling, so should french if we’re going to be serious about it being an official language beside english.

I don’t think English is mandatory in much post-secondary education, unless the research industry itself forces it. You can attend French universities if you so wish.

So, I respectfully disagree with a few of your viewpoints.

[hueyOT]

[quote]vroom wrote:

Being officially recognized doesn’t mean that all citizens have to speak it. It means those that do so should be able to receive services. That is all…

I’m pretty certain English speaking people are able to choose an education in French if they wish to do so.[/quote]

but why are we offering services in french? why is the french language(99% of canadians outside of quebec speak english) given official status on a national level? french should be offered alongside emglish in quebec, only. the rest of the country does not need french. only 10% of canadians outside of quebec are biligual.

why is french an official language of canada? and if you can answer that, how is this a benefit to canadians more than it is an inconvenience? do the benefits outweigh the costs? what about the many other minorities in canada who have a mother tongue other than english? this is what doesn’t make sense to me.

having french as a second language cannot be justified other than to argue that the french were some of the first immigrants to canada. well, so what? we should live in an egalitarian society which should be free from inherited privilege.

I disagree. It’s supply and demand as well as cost. If nobody out west wants to learn French, why should it be mandatory for everyone to learn it? That’s a tremendous expense for a group that doesn’t event want it.

agreed! so if we agree on that, why are french services REQIRED to be available all across canada from the government in populations that don’t need it? again, this gives an unfair advantage to a francophone minority when it comes to obtaining many government jobs. and as i stated before, government jobs are nothing to scoff at considering our bloated government accounts for over half of our GDP.

Where is the unfair advantage? Is it because they actually speak both French and English? That’s not an unfair advantage, that’s a skill that is in demand that most English speaking people don’t bother to consider.

but you just conceded in your previous statement that there is NO demand to learn french in canada outside of quebec, save filling government jobs or to be involved in businesses that have strong ties to the government . the demand for french-speakers in government positions is an ARTIFICIALLY created demand not based on the real needs of the population. it is simply based on the bullshit biligualism clauses in the CCRF. if canadians were to vote, they’d remove french as the official second language of canada by a STRONG majority.

[quote]
I don’t think English is mandatory in much post-secondary education, unless the research industry itself forces it. You can attend French universities if you so wish.[/quote]

the vast majority of canadian universities and colleges function in english. so yes, strong proficiency in english is most often required to gain a higher education in canada. the same cannot be said about french.

i’m trying to illustrate to you that the social pressures to learn french are WEAK. but many government positions still require french <and many businesses which have relationships with the government, as well> due to the status of french as an official second language, which leads to a disproportionate amount of francophones in the canadian government.

it is easier for a francophone to learn english than for an anglophone to learn french to due social influences. the sheer number of exposure to english media makes it much easier to pick up english for a francophone than for an anglophone to learn french.

at the end of the day, having french as an official second language serves more as an artifact of privilege that simply serves to benefit the francophone majority in canada at the expense of the rest of canadians. and that’s fucked up if you ask me.

So, I respectfully disagree with a few of your viewpoints.

if i’ve made myself clear, and i think i have, i don’t see how anyone can disagree with me.

[LIFTICVSMAXIMVS]

[quote]hueyOT wrote:
Monkey23 wrote:
Im not talking about going to other countries as a tourist. I just think we need to find a better system to teach the legals and not only their children. Thanks alot LIFTICVSMAXIMVS for you o so never ending Knowledge on this subjuct. Im glad you think im a racist you fag but i have mexican in my immediate family and their family have tried and learned english.

calling someone a ‘fag’ as an insult is just oh-so-mature. it doesn’t really speak well to your character to try and degrade them by implying that they’re a homosexual.

are you still in high school, or something?

[/quote]
I thought that was term of endearment. I didn’t realize he was making fun of my sexual orientation.

[endgamer711]

The reason it makes sense to have more than one official language in a place like Canada is so that most folks don’t have to be bilingual. Bilingualism is a fine thing to wish on everybody, but not everybody wants to pay the freight.

It even makes economic sense that in Canada government services are delivered only in English wherever French speakers are scarce.

It’s not just that Canada has two official languages; it has two regions, one of which is predominately French-speaking, the other English-speaking.

Looking at the French and Quebecois circling the wagons to protect against English, would seem quite the same as watching Americans sweat and fret about Spanish, except for this point: the United States is in danger of becoming bilingual everywhere, and all of this is due to illegal employment of Mexican nationals. We can say that Spanish all over the place in North America is just business as usual, or it’s cosmopolitan, but in fact there is still a huge issue here that won’t be swept under the rug: a vast influx of Spanish speakers into all corners of an English-speaking region.

In Europe they have all these Middle-Eastern immigrants to deal with, here in the States immigrants from the South are our cross to bear. In both cases, we’re seeing difficulties in assimilation.

Would we really be more accepting of the immigrants if they all arrived speaking flawless English? Somehow I doubt it.

[hueyOT]

[quote]The reason it makes sense to have more than one official language in a place like Canada is so that most folks don’t have to be bilingual. Bilingualism is a fine thing to wish on everybody, but not everybody wants to pay the freight.

It even makes economic sense that in Canada government services are delivered only in English wherever French speakers are scarce.

It’s not just that Canada has two official languages; it has two regions, one of which is predominately French-speaking, the other English-speaking. [/quote]

i’m not sure i understand what you’re trying to say here. there are two sepearate regions of canada: quebec and the rest of canada. 99% of canadians living outside of quebec speak english. why spend taxpayer money to ensure that french services are offered by the government outside of quebec? i can understand special laws in quebec to provide services in french <90% of quebec speaks french> in order to serve its population properly, but these laws should remain provincial and not be extrapolated to the national level in order to give frencophone patriots some sort of ego-trip.

and government services are available in french all across canada… this doesn’t make sense considering french is scarcely spoken outside of quebec.

for example, in vancouver there is a huge mandarin and cantonese speaking population. i could understand some municipal debate regarding offering select services in these languages, or offering public interpreters, for example… it’s simply a sign of adapting to a changing population.

but again, having french as an official language across canada makes no sense.

[pookie]

[quote]hueyOT wrote:
but again, having french as an official language across canada makes no sense.[/quote]

Would you agree that if Canada was to offer English unilingual services in the 9 other provinces, Quebec could offer French unilingual services on its territory? For the same cost saving reasons.

[pookie]

[quote]endgamer711 wrote:
Looking at the French and Quebecois circling the wagons to protect against English, would seem quite the same as watching Americans sweat and fret about Spanish, except for this point: the United States is in danger of becoming bilingual everywhere[/quote]

In danger of becoming bilingual? And you think that’s more of a threat than what Quebec was facing (ie, eventual assimilation) in the 60s and 70s?

Before our language laws, most businesses were entirely anglophone and most signs and product labeling was English only. You could speak French at home, but when you went to work or to shop, you were expected to speak English.

So while I disagree with some details on the implementation of those laws, I understand the need for them, if we are to preserve our culture in a sea of about 330 million anglophones.

[endgamer711]

[quote]pookie wrote:
In danger of becoming bilingual? And you think that’s more of a threat than what Quebec was facing (ie, eventual assimilation) in the 60s and 70s?
[/quote]

Hell, yes. I think lack of assimilation is a greater threat than assimilation, in terms of having a democracy, never mind public safety. But I’m not saying being assimilated is a non-issue.

When you do get to the point where you have to say: “oops, assimilation is going too far, we’re losing cultural identities” I think (pardon me) you’re really dealing with a second order issue, you’re doing some fine-tuning, especially when compared with a problem like the lack of assimilation of Muslim populations in Europe.

In the long run, assuming we don’t all kill each other, ruin the planet, otherwise die back or fall into energy penury, we are basically headed willy nilly to a future in which there are fewer distinct cultures, fewer distinct languages, and fewer distinct skin tones, for that matter.

Be happy, we’ll still have all these different kinds of restaurants.

In any case, giving some government services in French throughout Canada, and having two languages at the hub of government, is a small price to pay to get out of having a lengthy civil war, I think.

[hueyOT]

[quote]pookie wrote:
hueyOT wrote:
but again, having french as an official language across canada makes no sense.

Would you agree that if Canada was to offer English unilingual services in the 9 other provinces, Quebec could offer French unilingual services on its territory? For the same cost saving reasons.
[/quote]

no, because you still need unity throughout the country through language. a canadian citizen should be able to have access to services entitled to him/her. and english is the strong majority language in this language. therefore english must be offered accross canada from the government, and in a place like quebec, of course french as well.

quebec is not a seperate country.

mind you, in quebec many people still speak english: 13% of quebecers identify english as their first language, the actual total number of those who speak english well is much higher.

[hueyOT]

[quote]pookie wrote:
In danger of becoming bilingual? And you think that’s more of a threat than what Quebec was facing (ie, eventual assimilation) in the 60s and 70s?

Before our language laws, most businesses were entirely anglophone and most signs and product labeling was English only. You could speak French at home, but when you went to work or to shop, you were expected to speak English. [/quote]

where are you getting this information? quebec has always been predominantly french, even before the dicriminatory language laws. the culture has always been french. sure there was a strong enlgish presence in montreal, but other than that the culture has always been strongly french.

[quote]So while I disagree with some details on the implementation of those laws, I understand the need for them, if we are to preserve our culture in a sea of about 330 million anglophones.
[/quote]

it is not the job of the government to protect a culture. it is up to private sphere. my parents are russian immigrants. my father started a russian school because he had the same concerns about future generations of russian immigrant families losing their language.culture preservation needs to be done at the grassroots level, not through discriminatory legislation. and that’s exactly what quebec does. to prevent PRIVATE business from using another language in their business signs is beyond absurd. only in canada would you find something so ridiculous.

mind you, the french culture was never even close to being ‘killed’. possibly diffused, but so what? things change. and again, it is not the responsibility of the government to make that value judgement for the entire population. whatever happened to protecting the minorities from the tyranny of the majority? well, apparently that concept doesn’t matter in quebec.

i understand people having concerns about maintaining their culture. these are legitimate concerns. but these must be resolved at the grassroots and private levels.

in ottawa, where i live, i see many ethnic businesses. arab video rental stores, indian food/spice shops, ethnic dance lessons, etc… THE PRIVATE SPHERE protects cultures, possibly with some government assistance, but to discriminate against other languages and infringe on the private rights of business owners is ridiculous. it shows the intolerance towards other cultures that is a strong component of the quebec culture .

[hueyOT]

In any case, giving some government services in French throughout Canada, and having two languages at the hub of government, is a small price to pay to get out of having a lengthy civil war, I think.

that’s an interesting point. i wonder if that’s what pierre trudeau saw coming in canada’s future without appeasement to quebec nationalism and anti-english mentality.