[quote]Monkey23 wrote:
Im glad you think im a racist you fag but i have mexican in my immediate family and their family have tried and learned english.
[/quote]
Touche!
You should follow your family’s example and learn English as well.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Wreckless wrote:
Could have been worse. You could have been asked to press 3 for English.
Speaking of language tolerance…
I was in Brussels last year. I came in on the train from Amsterdam.
(In the Netherlands as you probably know English is commonly spoken which can be a handicap for American tourists.)
My wife and I decided we wanted to go see Belgium because it is purported to be that gastronomic center of all Europe and I love Belgian beers. On the train from Amsterdam every half hour or so we got a report in French, German, Dutch, and English about the upcoming stops. This happened for most of the trip into Brussels. Once we got 30k from Brussels the reports quit coming in English, German, and Dutch (which I can get by in because of my knowledge of German). I found this weird because don’t many Belgians speak Dutch in the north?
It was a Wednesday and the EU congress was in session. Not a hotel or hostel to be found within walking distance of the train station. I speak about 50 words of French of which can get me a hotel, a taxi, something to eat, and directions (Europeans seem not to have any concept of east, west, south, or north).
I could find no hotel or taxi cab that understood (or they pretended not to understand) my French. When I tried again in broken Dutch again I got quizzical looks. I tried in English to which many replied, “ahhhh, American?”
This unfortunately, got me nowhere. “Sorry, no English,” they would reply in perfect English. The next time I go to Brussels what language should I practice on the train, Francais or Nederlands?
The only English in that town was a sign in the train station that said, “No Hotels, No trains, No Toilettes, No English”. I found it quite amusing. [/quote]
Serves you right for not making contact in advance! We could have shown you the toilet:-).
Seriously, next time drop a line on the site. Some of us might find a gap to give you the tour. A hint, it does involve beer…
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
All immigrants should, as quickly as possible, learn english. Allowing groups to tribalize, such as in the Paris suburbs, is simply a formula for disaster.
We do not need or want a Balkanized United States.[/quote]
This is not unique to Paris. With the failed exercise in “multiculturalism” in England we have numerous minority groups who have no affiliation to their country of residence, and merely treat the place as a random island where anyone of any culture is entitled to live without assimilating into the national culture.
I recently learned that our local mosque has strong ties to terrorism. Just makes me feel all warm inside.
Beeeeep!
All change is evil… thank you, have a nice day.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Speaking of language tolerance…
I was in Brussels last year. I came in on the train from Amsterdam.
Once we got 30k from Brussels the reports quit coming in English, German, and Dutch (which I can get by in because of my knowledge of German). I found this weird because don’t many Belgians speak Dutch in the north?
…
This unfortunately, got me nowhere. “Sorry, no English,” they would reply in perfect English. The next time I go to Brussels what language should I practice on the train, Francais or Nederlands?
The only English in that town was a sign in the train station that said, “No Hotels, No trains, No Toilettes, No English”. I found it quite amusing. [/quote]
French. You need some French. The reason the other languages went off the menu when you entered Belgique was that the French have a big hair up their nose about what they call “francophonie.” What this means is that there has to be a corner of the world where native French speakers can insult and embarrass tourists for their lack of French. Belgium is part of France, for linguistic purposes.
This attitude on their part is completely traditional, but I imagine the heat has gotten turned up a bit on this one since GWB got to work, as regards Americans at any rate. Since the election of 2004 there is a lot of puzzlement not just about our government, but about us. Looking more Canadian is definitely one strategy.
Nevertheless, formerly at least you could usually get some kind of cooperation if you kept trying. But if you wimp out immediately and start hollering for the nearest English speaker, don’t expect much.
There are places in Europe where most folks also speak English. France is not one of them. Maybe neither is Belgium.
[quote]endgamer711 wrote:
This attitude on their part is completely traditional, but I imagine the heat has gotten turned up a bit on this one since GWB got to work, as regards Americans at any rate.[/quote]
Just demand that the cheese eating surrender monkeys give you some freedom fries pronto or you’ll nuke their asses back to the stone age.
That’ll give you a much warmer reception.
[quote]vroom wrote:
endgamer711 wrote:
This attitude on their part is completely traditional, but I imagine the heat has gotten turned up a bit on this one since GWB got to work, as regards Americans at any rate.
Just demand that the cheese eating surrender monkeys give you some freedom fries pronto or you’ll nuke their asses back to the stone age.
That’ll give you a much warmer reception.[/quote]
I should add that French speakers have much more justice to their position that the rest of us should learn some French. For a long time in Europe, if French wasn’t your first language it was your second. As a result, French gained a special position over other languages for consular and diplomatic functions. By token of which, an American passport is partly written in French (horrors!)
The point being, by the time you arrive in Belgium where French is everybody’s first language, of what need is there for other languages? Any traveller not a complete barbarian must obviously speak at least a little French.
But of course in these days, English has kind of taken over as the de facto lingua franca. You can’t blame French speakers for being a bit prickly on the matter. However useful it might be, they’re not going to go about putting up signs in English in their railway cars. Non! That would be cutting and running …
[quote]endgamer711 wrote:
English has kind of taken over as the de facto lingua franca.[/quote]
Although it seems to have contracted a bad case of Latin poisoning.
Perhaps you are aware that English, while being the de facto national language, is not the official language of the United States. You may think this is splitting hairs, but hear me out. Nearly every country on earth has at least one language designated by law to be the official language of government and education. The only countries that don’t are Eritrea (a little country in Africa) and the United States of America.
Twenty-seven states and the US Virgin Islands have adopted English as the official language of the state or territory (including California, Arizona and Florida, which have some of the largest Spanish-speaking populations in the nation), but the other states, territories and the District of Columbia either have no legal stipulations, or they are officially bilingual, as are Puerto Rico, Hawaii, Guam New Mexico and Louisiana.
The Inhofe “English Only” bill will attempt to halt many of the atrocities that Monkey23 and others are so up in arms about, but neither it nor the Salazar bill will likely have a real effect on the official status of English in the US.
Think about it: the percentage of Hispanic people in the United States has been roughly doubling every decade: 6% in 1980, 10.5% in 1990, 19% in 2000. There will come a time–maybe not next year–but there will come a time when the Spanish-speaking population will exist in great enough numbers, and with enough representation in Congress, to vote down or overturn any “English Only” legislation.
I’d learn Spanish if I were you.
[quote]pookie wrote:
endgamer711 wrote:
English has kind of taken over as the de facto lingua franca.
Although it seems to have contracted a bad case of Latin poisoning.
[/quote]
Quid erat demonstrandum, indeed, however I take a certain schadenfreude at the hubris of such a weltanschauung. After all, c’est la vie.
[quote]Monkey23 wrote:
-Im not a racist in anyway and I dont want to be hounded for expressing my views.-[/quote]
congratulations.
it’s called adaptation. businesses are adapting to a spanish-speaking customer base. there’s a lot of people in your area <and all across america, i think> who identify spanish as their first language. so, businesses respond to this by offering labels/instructions/directions/nutritinal info/customer service/etc in spanish to be able to better serve their customers.
you DO understand that businesses adapt to change, right? you DO want businesses to respond to be able to better serve customers, right?
guess what, english services are still offered all over the place. you can get english customer servive/nutritional info/labels/instructions, etc… does that answer your question as to why this is happening?
why do they need to learn ‘our’ language? is there a law requiring someone to be able to speak english in order to live in the US? no.
there are many social pressures on non-english speakers to adapt, though. which i think is totally alright. immigrants who move to another country shouldn’t be surprised that learning the language and customs and culture of their new country will be very helpful to them in improving their quality of life.
i really don’t think there are any intelligent non-english speaking immigrants who come to the US or canada and DON’T want to speak english or who have some sort of prejudice against english. if they do not learn english their lives will be worse off for it. however, oftentimes it can take a generation to integrate in regards to language.
but i don’t even know why i’m going into this much detail. nobody NEEDS to do ANYTHING. you don’t have to graduate high school, you don’t have to get a job, you don’t have to be a nice person, and immigrant don’t have to speak english.
what needs to be done is to have reasonable promotion of ESL courses/programs and strong social pressures to learn english to the allow smooth integration of immigrants into society… but you can’t force anyone to do something they don’t want to.
again, i don’t see why you’re so worked up about this. is their some hot spanish chicks that you can’t hit on because they don’t speak english? i’m confused…
are you kidding me? ‘our ways of life’? what ‘ways’ are these? you’re coming across as very xenophobic, here.
since when are kids required to learn spanish? if this is the case i’d agree that this is strange, but i was under the impression that spanish was an optional class for american students.
show me where students are being required to learn spanish in order to graduate from elementary or high school and you may get some sympathy from me… but then, at the end of the day, a little bit of mandatory spanish education hardly constitutes as immigrants ‘changing our ways of life’.
america is still america. it’s free, it’s capitalistic, it’s diverse, and it’s full of opportunity. that isn’t changing because some students can <or according to you, MUST> take some spanish classes.
i’m not sure what point you’re trying to make here… are you suggesting that the government do a better job of offering ESL programs to immigrants? that’s no a bad idea if the government isn’t doing a good job, so far. but i’m pretty sure the american government offers many opportunities for immigrants to learn english if they want to learn english. if an immigrant has the will to learn english they will learn english. and if they opt out of learning english, their lives will not be better of from that decision.
who’s forcing you to learn spanish? i’m totally confused.
this is another subject altogether. what does this have to do with the assimilation of immigrants in regards to learning the english language? are you sure you’re not a racist?
What are some of your views of this?
my views are, immigrants SHOULD learn english, for their own benefit and to help everyone communicate with everyone else, and that government/communities should put a reasonable effort towards giving opportunities to immigrants to learn english. but nobody should be FORCED to. and immigrants who choose not to learn english will no benefit from that decision. you’re not gonna find a lot of rich non-english speaking americans or canadians, i promise you.
[quote]As I said before I am not racist and I welcome anyone to America to better their lives, I just cant stand the fact that we must change so manythings just to suit them. Is this just me or am I wrong to think this ?
[/quote]
you might have a point… but what changes are being forced upon you? does it bother you that companies offer services in other languages IN ADDITION to english? does it bother you that spanish classes are offered in schools?
i’m confused as to why you feel like your ‘ways of life’ are being changed so drastically.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Beside your little excursion into Mexico, have you ever spent a significant amount of time in a country in which English is not the official language?
In many countries, you will find that many street signs, subway maps, and telephone information services are also available in English and other languages. Very convenient for foreign travelers and residents who don’t happen to read or speak Italian, Russian, German, Japanese or what have you.
One mark of an advanced civilization is cosmopolitanism, defined as being familiar and comfortable with a variety of languages and cultures. The mark of narrow-mindedness and provinciality is a rejection of all that is foreign. Which would you rather the US to be?
Incidentally, is English in fact your native language? It was not immediately apparent from your post.[/quote]
i agree with your posts, varqanir. may i just say that i also think that a beautiful part of america is its cosmopolitanism. well, the big cities, anyways.
there are so many different cultures co-existing in large american cities. it’s just awesome. it’s an example for the world, if you ask me. although i know a lot of people complain about racism and prejudice in the US , when put into the context of the world, america is arguably the most tolerant nation on earth <at least the big cities :)>.
canada of course shares a lot of this vibe in its big cities, as well. and it’s a beautiful thing.
that being said, people emigrating to canada or the US should learn english, for their own sakes.
[quote]Monkey23 wrote:
Im not talking about going to other countries as a tourist. I just think we need to find a better system to teach the legals and not only their children. Thanks alot LIFTICVSMAXIMVS for you o so never ending Knowledge on this subjuct. Im glad you think im a racist you fag but i have mexican in my immediate family and their family have tried and learned english.
[/quote]
calling someone a ‘fag’ as an insult is just oh-so-mature. it doesn’t really speak well to your character to try and degrade them by implying that they’re a homosexual.
are you still in high school, or something?
[quote]endgamer711 wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Speaking of language tolerance…
I was in Brussels last year. I came in on the train from Amsterdam.
Once we got 30k from Brussels the reports quit coming in English, German, and Dutch (which I can get by in because of my knowledge of German). I found this weird because don’t many Belgians speak Dutch in the north?
…
This unfortunately, got me nowhere. “Sorry, no English,” they would reply in perfect English. The next time I go to Brussels what language should I practice on the train, Francais or Nederlands?
The only English in that town was a sign in the train station that said, “No Hotels, No trains, No Toilettes, No English”. I found it quite amusing.
French. You need some French. The reason the other languages went off the menu when you entered Belgique was that the French have a big hair up their nose about what they call “francophonie.” What this means is that there has to be a corner of the world where native French speakers can insult and embarrass tourists for their lack of French. Belgium is part of France, for linguistic purposes.
This attitude on their part is completely traditional, but I imagine the heat has gotten turned up a bit on this one since GWB got to work, as regards Americans at any rate. Since the election of 2004 there is a lot of puzzlement not just about our government, but about us. Looking more Canadian is definitely one strategy.
Nevertheless, formerly at least you could usually get some kind of cooperation if you kept trying. But if you wimp out immediately and start hollering for the nearest English speaker, don’t expect much.
There are places in Europe where most folks also speak English. France is not one of them. Maybe neither is Belgium.[/quote]
there definitely seems to be a strong sense of nationalism among european french people and canadian french people. it appears to be a very elitist attitude that leads to discrimination against other languages and cultures.
maybe you’re familiar with the french/quebec phenomenon in canada?
[quote]The Beast wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
All immigrants should, as quickly as possible, learn english. Allowing groups to tribalize, such as in the Paris suburbs, is simply a formula for disaster.
We do not need or want a Balkanized United States.
This is not unique to Paris. With the failed exercise in “multiculturalism” in England we have numerous minority groups who have no affiliation to their country of residence, and merely treat the place as a random island where anyone of any culture is entitled to live without assimilating into the national culture.
I recently learned that our local mosque has strong ties to terrorism. Just makes me feel all warm inside.[/quote]
i think this is debatable. there’s a middle ground between multiculturalism and complete assimilation.
people need to integrate. it’s unfortunate that the UK has imported many people who hold no sense of loyalty or appreciation to the state that took them in to offer them better opportunities for their lives.
time to do better screening of immigrants, i guess.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
pookie wrote:
endgamer711 wrote:
English has kind of taken over as the de facto lingua franca.
Although it seems to have contracted a bad case of Latin poisoning.
Quid erat demonstrandum, indeed, however I take a certain schadenfreude at the hubris of such a weltanschauung. After all, c’est la vie.[/quote]
That’s really the beauty of English: it takes a licking and keeps on ticking. Absorbs any cognate you care to throw at it, plays with it, turns it into a verb while you’re not looking.
The French have a committee that meets regularly to determine what French is. Friendly cognates that get pulled into casual conversation are periodically declared un-French, and the committee makes up what is to be deemed the correct French term. It boggles the mind. English would never put up with such a thing.
[quote]hueyOT wrote:that being said, people emigrating to canada or the US should learn english, for their own sakes.
[/quote]
What if they want to emigrate to Quebec?
[quote]hueyOT wrote:
there definitely seems to be a strong sense of nationalism among european french people and canadian french people. it appears to be a very elitist attitude that leads to discrimination against other languages and cultures.
[/quote]
Would that be anything like American exceptionalism?
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
hueyOT wrote:that being said, people emigrating to canada or the US should learn english, for their own sakes.
What if they want to emigrate to Quebec?[/quote]
then they better learn french, in that case! maybe you already know, but quebec has discriminatory laws against english. it’s very strange considering it’s a canadian province. but hey, we’re a strange country.
[quote]endgamer711 wrote:
hueyOT wrote:
there definitely seems to be a strong sense of nationalism among european french people and canadian french people. it appears to be a very elitist attitude that leads to discrimination against other languages and cultures.
Would that be anything like American exceptionalism?[/quote]
probably a lot like it, actually. 
it’s just interesting that this same sense of french nationaism exists in two places far away from one anotherL quebec and france. and they’re not united, for the most part.