President Obama

[quote]Airtruth wrote:

[quote]Pigeonkak wrote:
There is nothing right about your stand ZEB. When I said “these Hispanics” I was referring to the very specific number of 10 000 000 that would be affected by the new ID laws. I posted the links referencing the number. I was referring to a very specific number of hispanic voters, and other minority groups that may be affected by the laws. You obviously didn’t read my post, or the links.

You obviously harbour a deep, deep seated, very repressed issue that you aren’t resolving. You’re going at me, over really ONE word. THESE as in, THEM, as in THAT specific group of disaffected voters, as in THIS Hispanic guy over HERE, and THAT Hispanic lady over THERE.

[/quote]

It’s the internet, if you don’t like arguing over some dumb shit then don’t, but after a post reply or two you should realize the trap you are in. It’s slightly entertaining but you are arguing with people who would tell the sun it’s racist for trying to make everybody black. I pretty much say this to say you are wasting your time.

Continue[/quote]

You’re absolutely right man. I’m just not going to post in this thread anymore. ZEB… uncle.

[quote]Pigeonkak wrote:

You’re absolutely right man. I’m just not going to post in this thread anymore. ZEB… uncle.
[/quote]

Or how about answering the other questions posed to you about your stance from those of us who aren’t Zeb?

Whether it is racist to say so is not a question I have much interest in debating, but it is pretty clear that certain groups are less intelligent and less politically active than others.

Income/net worth and IQ are positively correlated. Even more telling, impoverished children suffer from reduced or disrupted prefrontal function, translating into significantly lower IQ over adult lifetime: Study: Poverty dramatically affects children's brains - USATODAY.com

Income level is positively correlated with political participation:

http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/30022656?uid=3739832&uid=2129&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21101099394723

So, the poor are likely to be less intelligent and less politically active. They find it harder to get to polling places (or anywhere, for that matter) and they are in many cases simply not informed enough to know/care about national politics. It is perfectly reasonable to believe that any additional requirement will make the poor less likely to participate in a system whose appeal to them is already questionable.

Again, this isn’t meant to say that voter ID laws are wrong. Just that they will almost certainly reduce voter turnout among certain groups of people–most of whom tend to vote for one party and not the other–who are otherwise eligible to vote.

How about when you sign up for your entitlements (since, well, we’re talking about the dirt poor, ignorant of the nation, judging by the handicapping of these people by those concerned for them) you’re qualified to have the state provide the card also, if you’re qualified to vote? See? And, I did it for free.

[quote]Sloth wrote:
How about when you sign up for your entitlements (since, well, we’re talking about the dirt poor, ignorant of the nation, judging by the handicapping of these people by those concerned for them) you’re qualified to have the state provide the card also, if you’re qualified to vote? See? And, I did it for free.[/quote]

Works for me. For the record, I don’t think photo ID is a terribly unreasonable thing to require of a voter. I do think that these laws should be implemented with enough warning to seriously focus on getting eligible voters the necessary identification.

Re: the “handicapping of these people by those concerned for them”: reality is reality. The poor are are both more ignorant and less politically active. No reason to pretend otherwise.

[quote]smh23 wrote:
Whether it is racist to say so is not a question I have much interest in debating, but it is pretty clear that certain groups are less intelligent and less politically active than others.

Income/net worth and IQ are positively correlated. Even more telling, impoverished children suffer from reduced or disrupted prefrontal function, translating into significantly lower IQ over adult lifetime: Study: Poverty dramatically affects children's brains - USATODAY.com

Income level is positively correlated with political participation:

http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/30022656?uid=3739832&uid=2129&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21101099394723

So, the poor are likely to be less intelligent and less politically active. They find it harder to get to polling places (or anywhere, for that matter) and they are in many cases simply not informed enough to know/care about national politics. It is perfectly reasonable to believe that any additional requirement will make the poor less likely to participate in a system whose appeal to them is already questionable.

Again, this isn’t meant to say that voter ID laws are wrong. Just that they will almost certainly reduce voter turnout among certain groups of people–most of whom tend to vote for one party and not the other–who are otherwise eligible to vote.[/quote]

Right. See, I don’t care. I agree with you that probably some small segment of the population–of all skin colors there Zeb–is so absolutely inept at life that they don’t know how to get around their own town, let alone read a voter ballot in some states. Thing is, I don’t care and it is complete reasonable that if you are too inept to prove you are who you say you are you don’t get to vote for the most important election in the world. Identity is the most fundamental of all proofs, it should be required. Hell, you could get somebody to help you get an ID and get your stuff together. I don’t care if a mentally challenged person votes, or even a mentall unstable one–more power to them! As long as they can show who they are. I don’t have to agree with their choice of candidate but I do want people involved in the process. Unfortunately that comes with a basic provision of proving you are who you say you are.

It doesn’t sound like you have a problem with that either. As you mentioned in some earlier post, just because a certain provision will affect some people more than others does not mean it is a bad, illconsidered, or illegitimate provision in the first place.

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
How about when you sign up for your entitlements (since, well, we’re talking about the dirt poor, ignorant of the nation, judging by the handicapping of these people by those concerned for them) you’re qualified to have the state provide the card also, if you’re qualified to vote? See? And, I did it for free.[/quote]

Works for me. For the record, I don’t think photo ID is a terribly unreasonable thing to require of a voter. I do think that these laws should be implemented with enough warning to seriously focus on getting eligible voters the necessary identification.

Re: the “handicapping of these people by those concerned for them”: reality is reality. The poor are are both more ignorant and less politically active. No reason to pretend otherwise.[/quote]

I agree. Just because reality is unflattering doesn’t make it any less true or any less legitimate. I will also agree with you that voter ID laws should be implemented enough in advance of an election to allow people to get IDs—however two things come to mind. 1) It’s not prohibitive to get an ID. Not even a drivers license, just a State photo ID. It costs something like $15-20 in most states. I feel that if you don’t care enough to spend $20 measly dollars on an ID, you shouldn’t get the privilege of voting for the leader of the free world.

That said I really don’t have any idea how much it costs in Cali or NY. Lord knows it could be ridiculous. So, ultimately as much as I dislike the idea somebody doesn’t want to spend the equivalent of 3 beers on a State ID, fine let the State choose if they want to pay for people who are on Entitlements. I don’t think that provision should be a requirement to pass a voter ID law…I think it could be an option for states such as Cali and NY who really really really feel disenfranchised. Hah! As I said, if you don’t care enough to forego 3 beers to vote, or a couple packs of cigarettes (which are both things the poor tend to spend a lot of money every month on, as evidenced by statistics on smoking), I don’t think you earn the privilege of voting for the leader of the free world.

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]Pigeonkak wrote:

You’re absolutely right man. I’m just not going to post in this thread anymore. ZEB… uncle.
[/quote]

Or how about answering the other questions posed to you about your stance from those of us who aren’t Zeb?[/quote]

I’d like to hear you answer some of countingbean’s very civilly posted questions.

RE: your “10 million Hispanics” comment about this number of people being turned away…you do understand that there are approximately 10 million illegal immigrants from Hispanic countries in the US correct? It is a funny correlation you mention here.

I do not support illegals voting. I will never support that. I’m not saying that is particularly what you intended to imply, but I’d like to see a breakdown of these 10 million hispanics who are being disenfranchised. It is a well known fact that in California they have been pushing for illegal immigrants to be able to vote for some time now.

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:
Whether it is racist to say so is not a question I have much interest in debating, but it is pretty clear that certain groups are less intelligent and less politically active than others.

Income/net worth and IQ are positively correlated. Even more telling, impoverished children suffer from reduced or disrupted prefrontal function, translating into significantly lower IQ over adult lifetime: Study: Poverty dramatically affects children's brains - USATODAY.com

Income level is positively correlated with political participation:

http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/30022656?uid=3739832&uid=2129&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21101099394723

So, the poor are likely to be less intelligent and less politically active. They find it harder to get to polling places (or anywhere, for that matter) and they are in many cases simply not informed enough to know/care about national politics. It is perfectly reasonable to believe that any additional requirement will make the poor less likely to participate in a system whose appeal to them is already questionable.

Again, this isn’t meant to say that voter ID laws are wrong. Just that they will almost certainly reduce voter turnout among certain groups of people–most of whom tend to vote for one party and not the other–who are otherwise eligible to vote.[/quote]

Right. See, I don’t care. I agree with you that probably some small segment of the population–of all skin colors there Zeb–is so absolutely inept at life that they don’t know how to get around their own town, let alone read a voter ballot in some states. Thing is, I don’t care and it is complete reasonable that if you are too inept to prove you are who you say you are you don’t get to vote for the most important election in the world. Identity is the most fundamental of all proofs, it should be required. Hell, you could get somebody to help you get an ID and get your stuff together. I don’t care if a mentally challenged person votes, or even a mentall unstable one–more power to them! As long as they can show who they are. I don’t have to agree with their choice of candidate but I do want people involved in the process. Unfortunately that comes with a basic provision of proving you are who you say you are.

It doesn’t sound like you have a problem with that either. As you mentioned in some earlier post, just because a certain provision will affect some people more than others does not mean it is a bad, illconsidered, or illegitimate provision in the first place.[/quote]

Good post. I agree, though I also agree with the extremely obvious notion that a significant driving motive underlying this effort is a Republican push to get an edge at the polls. That doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be considered. I’m just calling a spade a spade.

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:
Whether it is racist to say so is not a question I have much interest in debating, but it is pretty clear that certain groups are less intelligent and less politically active than others.

Income/net worth and IQ are positively correlated. Even more telling, impoverished children suffer from reduced or disrupted prefrontal function, translating into significantly lower IQ over adult lifetime: Study: Poverty dramatically affects children's brains - USATODAY.com

Income level is positively correlated with political participation:

http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/30022656?uid=3739832&uid=2129&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21101099394723

So, the poor are likely to be less intelligent and less politically active. They find it harder to get to polling places (or anywhere, for that matter) and they are in many cases simply not informed enough to know/care about national politics. It is perfectly reasonable to believe that any additional requirement will make the poor less likely to participate in a system whose appeal to them is already questionable.

Again, this isn’t meant to say that voter ID laws are wrong. Just that they will almost certainly reduce voter turnout among certain groups of people–most of whom tend to vote for one party and not the other–who are otherwise eligible to vote.[/quote]

Right. See, I don’t care. I agree with you that probably some small segment of the population–of all skin colors there Zeb–is so absolutely inept at life that they don’t know how to get around their own town, let alone read a voter ballot in some states. Thing is, I don’t care and it is complete reasonable that if you are too inept to prove you are who you say you are you don’t get to vote for the most important election in the world. Identity is the most fundamental of all proofs, it should be required. Hell, you could get somebody to help you get an ID and get your stuff together. I don’t care if a mentally challenged person votes, or even a mentall unstable one–more power to them! As long as they can show who they are. I don’t have to agree with their choice of candidate but I do want people involved in the process. Unfortunately that comes with a basic provision of proving you are who you say you are.

It doesn’t sound like you have a problem with that either. As you mentioned in some earlier post, just because a certain provision will affect some people more than others does not mean it is a bad, illconsidered, or illegitimate provision in the first place.[/quote]

Good post. I agree, though I also agree with the extremely obvious notion that a significant driving motive underlying this effort is a Republican push to get an edge at the polls. That doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be considered. I’m just calling a spade a spade.[/quote]

Haha. Politics is a no-holds-barred game. That said, not sure I agree 100% there. I think it is common sense to want somebody to prove who they say they are, and that holding that position as a Republican doesn’t necessarily mean that your motive is wanting an edge in the polls. I would be more inclined to give that motive to gerrymandering.

However the motive for poll edge might have something to do with the timing of said regulation push by Reps I suppose. That seems a reasonable conclusion to me. The flip side to that–which I also very strongly believe–is that human nature dictates we don’t attempt to solve a problem until it’s thrown in our face as imminent (witness budget, debt, entitlements, everything), which doesn’t have as much to do with party as much as innate human laziness and procrastination (or more likely in this case a sense by the party leadership that other things and goals have urgency in political necessity over it until election I suppose).

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
How about when you sign up for your entitlements (since, well, we’re talking about the dirt poor, ignorant of the nation, judging by the handicapping of these people by those concerned for them) you’re qualified to have the state provide the card also, if you’re qualified to vote? See? And, I did it for free.[/quote]

Works for me. For the record, I don’t think photo ID is a terribly unreasonable thing to require of a voter.[/quote]

I don’t think anybody is. What the judge wanted to uphold is that you don’t implement an election law 2 months away from an election you knew was coming all year because someone in your party had a slight observation that group will not vote for you.

[quote]Airtruth wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
How about when you sign up for your entitlements (since, well, we’re talking about the dirt poor, ignorant of the nation, judging by the handicapping of these people by those concerned for them) you’re qualified to have the state provide the card also, if you’re qualified to vote? See? And, I did it for free.[/quote]

Works for me. For the record, I don’t think photo ID is a terribly unreasonable thing to require of a voter.[/quote]

I don’t think anybody is. What the judge wanted to uphold is that you don’t implement an election law 2 months away from an election you knew was coming all year because someone in your party had a slight observation that group will not vote for you.
[/quote]

Agreed. I’ve said before in this thread that it should be implemented well before an important election if its going to be implemented at all.

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:
Whether it is racist to say so is not a question I have much interest in debating, but it is pretty clear that certain groups are less intelligent and less politically active than others.

Income/net worth and IQ are positively correlated. Even more telling, impoverished children suffer from reduced or disrupted prefrontal function, translating into significantly lower IQ over adult lifetime: Study: Poverty dramatically affects children's brains - USATODAY.com

Income level is positively correlated with political participation:

http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/30022656?uid=3739832&uid=2129&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21101099394723

So, the poor are likely to be less intelligent and less politically active. They find it harder to get to polling places (or anywhere, for that matter) and they are in many cases simply not informed enough to know/care about national politics. It is perfectly reasonable to believe that any additional requirement will make the poor less likely to participate in a system whose appeal to them is already questionable.

Again, this isn’t meant to say that voter ID laws are wrong. Just that they will almost certainly reduce voter turnout among certain groups of people–most of whom tend to vote for one party and not the other–who are otherwise eligible to vote.[/quote]

Right. See, I don’t care. I agree with you that probably some small segment of the population–of all skin colors there Zeb–is so absolutely inept at life that they don’t know how to get around their own town, let alone read a voter ballot in some states. Thing is, I don’t care and it is complete reasonable that if you are too inept to prove you are who you say you are you don’t get to vote for the most important election in the world. Identity is the most fundamental of all proofs, it should be required. Hell, you could get somebody to help you get an ID and get your stuff together. I don’t care if a mentally challenged person votes, or even a mentall unstable one–more power to them! As long as they can show who they are. I don’t have to agree with their choice of candidate but I do want people involved in the process. Unfortunately that comes with a basic provision of proving you are who you say you are.

It doesn’t sound like you have a problem with that either. As you mentioned in some earlier post, just because a certain provision will affect some people more than others does not mean it is a bad, illconsidered, or illegitimate provision in the first place.[/quote]

Good post. I agree, though I also agree with the extremely obvious notion that a significant driving motive underlying this effort is a Republican push to get an edge at the polls. That doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be considered. I’m just calling a spade a spade.[/quote]

Haha. Politics is a no-holds-barred game. That said, not sure I agree 100% there. I think it is common sense to want somebody to prove who they say they are, and that holding that position as a Republican doesn’t necessarily mean that your motive is wanting an edge in the polls. I would be more inclined to give that motive to gerrymandering.

However the motive for poll edge might have something to do with the timing of said regulation push by Reps I suppose. That seems a reasonable conclusion to me. The flip side to that–which I also very strongly believe–is that human nature dictates we don’t attempt to solve a problem until it’s thrown in our face as imminent (witness budget, debt, entitlements, everything), which doesn’t have as much to do with party as much as innate human laziness and procrastination (or more likely in this case a sense by the party leadership that other things and goals have urgency in political necessity over it until election I suppose).[/quote]

Tough to argue with this, it’s balanced and well-reasoned. Politics is a dirty game, and I’m by no means accusing only one side of playing dirty.