Prepare for the Next Attack

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
121

[quote]orion wrote:

So you arbitrarily begin history when the Byzantine empire got attacked and yet ignore that he Roman empire conquered this areas before that?

This is much like the justifications for Americas aggressive foreign policies, history always seems to start when America is “attacked” and not a single minute before that.

[/quote]

No, silly, we are showing that from its very foundation Islam has waged war on the West.

The wars of Rome were not against Islam - Islam didn’t exist - Islam started the war with the West of its own accord and without any justification - repeat this 500 times - maybe it will eventually sink in.

We are also showing that from the moment the US was founded, Muslims began to attack us without provocation. You know- this is probably a great point of history to start from for you. When America was founded - we as a nation had not attacked anyone and yet the Muslims of Africa began to attack, enslave and murder our citizens without any provocation from us- want to start the discussion there? Not far enough back? well, this whole thread I have been showing that Islam instigated the war between itself and the West - the west never attacked Islam - Islam attacked first - thus their bear the responsibility for everything that follows after that point.

Need some more historical data? be glad to provide it.

The amazing thing is that the West has - IN SPITE OF THE WAY ISLAM HAS TREATED US - tried to repeatedly coexist with Islam in a peaceful manner. We still hope the best of Muslims, we still open our borders to Muslims, we still trade more than fairly with Muslims, we still allow Muslims to LIVE AS THEY CHOOSE IN OUR LANDS - something that is not shared in return. On the whole, given Islam’s bloody abuse of the West, we have been more than generous, more than kind, more than fair in our treatment of them.

Need proof? How many mosques are there in in Europe? and How many Catholic cathedrals in Muslim nations? yeah . . . thought so

122

[quote]Sloth wrote:
What is with the love affair you Lew Rockwell types have with Islam? Islam-the Islam that was left by Muhammad-is completely and totally incompatible with the West. It’s not my fault, nor Irishsteel’s fault. Maybe there’ll be a New Islamtestament which abrogates the Political/Military-Theocractic stuff, but I wouldn’t count on it. Of course, I’m grateful there are muslims who are in self-denial about the faith Muhammad DID leave them with.

By the way, for all the cheerleading given to Irishsteel’s opponents, why is noone actually disputing the history he’s sharing? Funny, when the history of the crusades and west-Islam conflict are fleshed out (after the usual “Muslims were at home just minding their business” gets pulled), not a damn one of you is honest enough to voice the relief you feel for the preservation of Europe, and, therefore the West as we know it.

Your utopian Rockwellian fantasies somehow have you convinced Europe’s, thus the West’s existence, was just a given. A Law of the Cosmos, I guess. You couldn’t possibly be sitting in a Europe shaped by Islamic custom and Law. No, never. Get off the guilt trip. [/quote]

^ this!

123

[quote]orion wrote:

The Byzantine Empire WAS the Roman empire.

How do you think they built their empire that was then conquered by the Ottoman empire?

[/quote]

Umm . . .I think you skipped some centuries in your history there . . .

124

[quote]florelius wrote:

well its relevant to the topic.

the point is that the arabs took the power over the eastern parts of bysant from an allien power.

[/quote]

Wrong - they took over lands that never belonged to them by killing their inhabitants - the indigenous peoples - or forcing them to convert to Islam - this was never a freeing of enslaved lands by the muslims - this was the enslaving of christian lands by and invading alien power!!

Need some more sources?

125

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

Do you really want to go here? really? Want to have the discussion about Islam’s long and still ongoing slave trade? Want to have the discussion about the Muslim sex slave trade? Want to to have the discussion about the rampant racism towards blacks in Muslim history? Want to have the discussion about the way Islam treated the tribes of the Near East, Europe and Asia? Want to have the discussion about the actual way women are treated with Islam?

Let’s go further back and do you want to know what the prophet himself had to say on all of these issues?

Say the word, and I will flood you with the facts![/quote]

Do that, as long as you compare it to everything else that existed back then.

Those people were hundreds of years ahead of the European barbarians.

[/quote]

LMAO - you’ve bought into that BS hook, line and sinker haven’t you? You have no concept of the actual history of the middle east in any shape or fashion, do you? Until their armies had conquered the Egyptian (not Muslim!), Persian (not Muslim), Byzantine (not Muslim) and all of the pan-arabic tribes - THEY HAD NO CULTURE! Anything they claim as a Muslim achievement was the direct result of their Colonial mindset - they took over, so they own the rights to it.

What you all routinely accuse the west of (colonialism) and blame for the trouble between the two - the Muslims had actually perfected by 9th century - we learned it from them!! LONG before any Western colonial power would ever exist, Islam was the progenitor of the colonial concept. Islam spread at the point of its swords!

126

Oh, and two wrongs don’t make a right. We’ve never said the West wasn’t barbaric - take pride in that fact actually, we survived the Muslim onslaught because we were a a warrior civilization and could fight back against the Muslim barbarians. BUT, If Islam is so perfect, so enlightened, so wonderful - why is it your common defense for their atrocities this: “well, so did other people . . .” LOL - yeah, thought so.

back over the facts one more time - Islam started the war with the West without any provocation from the West . . . .oooommmmm . . . .Islam started the war with the West without any provocation from the West . . . .oooommmmm . . . .Islam started the war with the West without any provocation from the West . . . .oooommmmm . . . .Islam started the war with the West without any provocation from the West . . . .oooommmmm . . . .Islam started the war with the West without any provocation from the West . . . .oooommmmm . . . .

127

And for those accusing Americans of starting the war on Terror: . . . .

Muslims started the war with America without provocation in the 1780’s . . . . .ooommmm . . . .Muslims started the war with America without provocation in the 1780’s . . . . .ooommmm . . . .Muslims started the war with America without provocation in the 1780’s . . . . .ooommmm . . . .Muslims started the war with America without provocation in the 1780’s . . . . .ooommmm . . . .Muslims started the war with America without provocation in the 1780’s . . . . .ooommmm . . . .

128

And for those claiming that the Christian Crusades started the Islam/Christian conflict:

Islamic crusaders invaded Christian lands first without any provocation . . . .ooooommmm . . . .Islamic crusaders invaded Christian lands first without any provocation . . . .ooooommmm . . . .Islamic crusaders invaded Christian lands first without any provocation . . . .ooooommmm . . . .Islamic crusaders invaded Christian lands first without any provocation . . . .ooooommmm . . . .Islamic crusaders invaded Christian lands first without any provocation . . . .ooooommmm . . . .Islamic crusaders invaded Christian lands first without any provocation . . . .ooooommmm . . . .

129

All of that to say - in the end, you will either have to fight Islam or submit to it . . . Islam and the West are incompatible. Islam at is core necessitates the destruction of Western Civilization or the submission of its citizens to the rule of Allah - either way - it is the same result.

Islam divides the world into two areas: dar al-islam = the House of Islam (lands submitted to Allah) or dar al-harb the House of War (lands at war with Allah).

not much of a choice, eh?

The Western Civilizations did not start this conflict with Islam - this conflict was started by and is necessitated by the very nature and character of Islam. It has had it periods of relative peace and periods of outright war, but it is has never ended.

Research the “Peace of Saladin”

130

here’s another thought for you: Which is the safer occupation, a muslim cleric in the west, or a priest (catholic, hindu, buddhist - take your pick) in the middle east? and why would that be the case?

131

And my final post for the day: As a Proud, Patriotic, Unashamed America! I join Stephen Decatur of the USN in his toast in Virginia after his experiences fighting the Muslim pirates in the Mediterranean :

“Our country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, may she always be in the right; but our country, right or wrong”

132

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

[quote]florelius wrote:

well its relevant to the topic.

the point is that the arabs took the power over the eastern parts of bysant from an allien power.

[/quote]

Wrong - they took over lands that never belonged to them by killing their inhabitants - the indigenous peoples - or forcing them to convert to Islam - this was never a freeing of enslaved lands by the muslims - this was the enslaving of christian lands by and invading alien power!!

Need some more sources?[/quote]

where do I say that the arabs freeing the inhabitants.

what I said is this: the bysants where allien rulers, they where kicked out by another allien ruler, the arabs. thats not wrong.

133

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
And for those accusing Americans of starting the war on Terror: . . . .

Muslims started the war with America without provocation in the 1780’s . . . . .ooommmm . . . .Muslims started the war with America without provocation in the 1780’s . . . . .ooommmm . . . .Muslims started the war with America without provocation in the 1780’s . . . . .ooommmm . . . .Muslims started the war with America without provocation in the 1780’s . . . . .ooommmm . . . .Muslims started the war with America without provocation in the 1780’s . . . . .ooommmm . . . .[/quote]

I have never heard of this. care to elaborate?

134

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

Do you really want to go here? really? Want to have the discussion about Islam’s long and still ongoing slave trade? Want to have the discussion about the Muslim sex slave trade? Want to to have the discussion about the rampant racism towards blacks in Muslim history? Want to have the discussion about the way Islam treated the tribes of the Near East, Europe and Asia? Want to have the discussion about the actual way women are treated with Islam?

Let’s go further back and do you want to know what the prophet himself had to say on all of these issues?

Say the word, and I will flood you with the facts![/quote]

Do that, as long as you compare it to everything else that existed back then.

Those people were hundreds of years ahead of the European barbarians.

[/quote]

LMAO - you’ve bought into that BS hook, line and sinker haven’t you? You have no concept of the actual history of the middle east in any shape or fashion, do you? Until their armies had conquered the Egyptian (not Muslim!), Persian (not Muslim), Byzantine (not Muslim) and all of the pan-arabic tribes - THEY HAD NO CULTURE! Anything they claim as a Muslim achievement was the direct result of their Colonial mindset - they took over, so they own the rights to it.

What you all routinely accuse the west of (colonialism) and blame for the trouble between the two - the Muslims had actually perfected by 9th century - we learned it from them!! LONG before any Western colonial power would ever exist, Islam was the progenitor of the colonial concept. Islam spread at the point of its swords![/quote]

On this one you are almost right, but the key word here is cultural fusion. by creating the arab empire they brought togheter different cultures, and in this cultural meltingpot innovation occured. this made the caliphat the cultural superpower in the middle ages. and the credit goes to persian, coptic, arameic, bysantic and arab people who contributed to this new culture: lats call it the caliphatic culture.

135

[quote]florelius wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
And for those accusing Americans of starting the war on Terror: . . . .

Muslims started the war with America without provocation in the 1780’s . . . . .ooommmm . . . .Muslims started the war with America without provocation in the 1780’s . . . . .ooommmm . . . .Muslims started the war with America without provocation in the 1780’s . . . . .ooommmm . . . .Muslims started the war with America without provocation in the 1780’s . . . . .ooommmm . . . .Muslims started the war with America without provocation in the 1780’s . . . . .ooommmm . . . .[/quote]

I have never heard of this. care to elaborate?[/quote]

First Barbary (or Tripolitan) War - Our nation started out paying ransom/tribute to Muslims of the Ottoman Empire to ensure our ability to have peaceful commerce with the East.

136

[quote]florelius wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

LMAO - you’ve bought into that BS hook, line and sinker haven’t you? You have no concept of the actual history of the middle east in any shape or fashion, do you? Until their armies had conquered the Egyptian (not Muslim!), Persian (not Muslim), Byzantine (not Muslim) and all of the pan-arabic tribes - THEY HAD NO CULTURE! Anything they claim as a Muslim achievement was the direct result of their Colonial mindset - they took over, so they own the rights to it.

What you all routinely accuse the west of (colonialism) and blame for the trouble between the two - the Muslims had actually perfected by 9th century - we learned it from them!! LONG before any Western colonial power would ever exist, Islam was the progenitor of the colonial concept. Islam spread at the point of its swords![/quote]

On this one you are almost right, but the key word here is cultural fusion. by creating the arab empire they brought togheter different cultures, and in this cultural meltingpot innovation occured. this made the caliphat the cultural superpower in the middle ages. and the credit goes to persian, coptic, arameic, bysantic and arab people who contributed to this new culture: lats call it the caliphatic culture.[/quote]

Cultural Fusion/Colonialism - the point still stands - the West can now claim the same highly enlightened culture as a result of our colonialism - so if Muslims get a pass for their empire building at the expense of the west, does that excuse ours at theirs? didn’t expect so.

But whatshisname’s point was that Muslims were more advance than their Western victims - not true for the first 600 years when they were starting the war against the World - they were merely assimilating European/African/Asian advances through murder and war.

137

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

[quote]florelius wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

LMAO - you’ve bought into that BS hook, line and sinker haven’t you? You have no concept of the actual history of the middle east in any shape or fashion, do you? Until their armies had conquered the Egyptian (not Muslim!), Persian (not Muslim), Byzantine (not Muslim) and all of the pan-arabic tribes - THEY HAD NO CULTURE! Anything they claim as a Muslim achievement was the direct result of their Colonial mindset - they took over, so they own the rights to it.

What you all routinely accuse the west of (colonialism) and blame for the trouble between the two - the Muslims had actually perfected by 9th century - we learned it from them!! LONG before any Western colonial power would ever exist, Islam was the progenitor of the colonial concept. Islam spread at the point of its swords![/quote]

On this one you are almost right, but the key word here is cultural fusion. by creating the arab empire they brought togheter different cultures, and in this cultural meltingpot innovation occured. this made the caliphat the cultural superpower in the middle ages. and the credit goes to persian, coptic, arameic, bysantic and arab people who contributed to this new culture: lats call it the caliphatic culture.[/quote]

Cultural Fusion/Colonialism - the point still stands - the West can now claim the same highly enlightened culture as a result of our colonialism - so if Muslims get a pass for their empire building at the expense of the west, does that excuse ours at theirs? didn’t expect so.

But whatshisname’s point was that Muslims were more advance than their Western victims - not true for the first 600 years when they were starting the war against the World - they were merely assimilating European/African/Asian advances through murder and war.[/quote]

you meen orion. well colonialism can have many different after effects. the arab empire building led to an advanced culture, but the belgium coloni in kongo for example led to a dysfunctional society. I am not saying that the arab empire is the only one who manage this. the roman empire also led to a cultural superpower. but there is a difference between the roman empire and the caliphat on one side and the europeen colonies on the other side. the europeens sucked out ressurces from there colonies and gave less back. while the roman and arab empire did not just sack and leav they incorporated new lands into there empire.

138

Thanks Flo, really appreciate the input - still, though, does not change the underlying truth concerning Islam - it was and remains a colonial empire built on bloodshed and war - a war they started with the world (and the west) and now they try to blame the West for their continual violence. Their theology allows no other outcome than the total submission of the globe to Islam.

139

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
Thanks Flo, really appreciate the input - still, though, does not change the underlying truth concerning Islam - it was and remains a colonial empire built on bloodshed and war - a war they started with the world (and the west) and now they try to blame the West for their continual violence. Their theology allows no other outcome than the total submission of the globe to Islam. [/quote]

you are welcome, appreciate that you are able to conduct this discussion in a serious and mature manner.

and ideology like islam, christianity, socialisme or liberalisme are just philosopys who try to explain something. religions like islam and christianity try to explain everything. the actions done in there names does not say much about them, it tells more about they who follow them. It does exist peacfull and good muslims, christians, socialists and liberalists, but it have been don horrible things in the name of christianity, islam, socialisme and liberalisme. the vatican state killed gnostics in the dark ages, does this meen that all christians are killers or that christianity is a religion of murder. no offcourse not. the muslims created a huge empire with the sword does this meen that all muslims are emperialists, no offcourse not. Under stalin millions of people died, does this meen that I am a massmurderer, no offcourse not. America who is a country founded on liberalistic idees, and they dropped the nuke on japan and killed 100,000`s, does this meen that liberalists wants to bomb everyone with nukes, no offcourse not. p

as an other example we can use a typicall christian conservative and tolstoj. both being christians, they do still have very different outlook on society and war. the typicall christian conservative supports the war in iraq and wants to preserve the capitalist society, but tolstoj who also was a christian, was a pasifist and wanted a anarco-agrarian society. they both read the same book - the bible.
but come to different conclusions. its the same thing with muslims.

I would conclude with that I do beleive that islam was jused as an excuse or legitimation of occupation and conquest by the arabs, turks and mongols in the search for power and wealth, Its similar to how bush jused “the spread of the democracy” as an legitimation of the occupation of iraq.

140

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
Back for more already? seriously?

OK - let’s break down the last set of foolishness - “there are millions of peaceful muslims, blah blah blah” - wow - really? Never said there weren’t - doesn’t change the history of the religion, doesn’t change the nature, doesn’t change the facts . . .so you’re point was what exactly - that the actual historical record that islam is violent and hateful to the West is wrong because there are millions of muslims living peacefully today in lands that were conquered and taken by Muslims through violence and bloodshed? Where does that even begin to make sense?

OOOhhh - you equated me to Bush . . . oh boo hoo . . . what kind of arguement is that?

“see above” I looked and looked and nope - no a single factual counter to my evidence.

Justify what my religion has done? Looking for moral equivalency are ya?

hmmm, let’s test your theory here as well.

and for your convenience, let’s just use modern day examples (so you don’t have to go through all those stuffy historical thingy’s and we’ll call the muslim crusades and the christian crusades as equal for sake of brevity - though you’d lose that argument too) How many Christian Fundamentalist terorist groups are there in the world today? and How many Islam Fundamentalist terrorists groups are there in the world today?

Personally, can’t think of single Christian example - oh wait a tic - there was that group in the news talking about violence against the US government . . . and . . . well . . . yeah

and on the other side . . .

Abu Nidal Organization (ANO) (International, Palestinian)
Abu Sayyaf Group (ASG) (Philippines)
Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades|Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade (Palestinian)
Al-Shabaab (Somalia)
Ansar al-Islam (Iraqi Kurdistan)
Armed Islamic Group (GIA) (Algeria)
Asbat an-Ansar (Lebanon)
Gamaâ??a al-Islamiyya (Egypt)
HAMAS (Islamic Resistance Movement) (Palestinian)
Harakat ul-Jihad-i-Islami/Bangladesh (HUJI-B) (Bangladesh)
Harakat ul-Mujahidin (HUM) (Pakistan)
Hizballah (Party of God) (Lebanon)
Hizbul Islam (Somalia)
Islamic Jihad Group (Palestinian)
Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan (IMU) (Uzbekistan)
Jaish-e-Mohammed (Army of Mohammed) (JEM) (Pakistan)
Jemaah Islamiya organization (JI) (South East Asia)
al-Jihad (Egyptian Islamic Jihad) (Egyptian Islamic Jihad) (Egypt)
Kongra-Gel (formerly Kurdistan Workers’ Party) (KGK, formerly PKK, KADEK, Kongra-Gel) (Turkey, Iraq, Iran, Syria)
Lashkar-e Tayyiba (Army of the Righteous) (LT) (Muridke, Pakistan)
Lashkar i Jhangvi (Pakistan)
Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE) (Sri Lanka)
Libyan Islamic Fighting Group (LIFG) (Libya)
Moroccan Islamic Combatant Group (GICM) (Morocco)
Mujahedin-e Khalq Organization (MEK) (Iran)
Palestine Liberation Front (PLF) (Palestinian)
Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ) (Palestinian)
Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) (Palestinian)
PFLP-General Command (PFLP-GC) (Palestinian)
Tanzim Qa’idat al-Jihad fi Bilad al-Rafidayn (QJBR) (al-Qaida in Iraq) (formerly Jama’at al-Tawhid wa’al-Jihad, JTJ, al-Zarqawi Network) (Iraq)
al-Qaâ??ida (Global)
al-Qaâ??ida in the Islamic Maghreb (formerly GSPC) (The Maghreb)

just to name a few . . . see I can make unrelated arguements too

How about victims of christian terrorism in the last century . . . hmmm well, one abortion doctor . . .

How about victims of Islamic terrorism in the last century . . . don’t really have space for all of the names, do we?

See, isn;t this fun?

and at the end of it all - Islam is still predicated on a history of violence and hate towards the West (not just Christians)[/quote]

Burn the NEST! The nest…the nest…