I’m praying that Thor lets you into valhalla. I know that valhalla is real because I have faith in Thor and Oden’s word and I feel their presence when I pray to them.
Unfortunately for most christians though, Thor is going to smite you with his hammer, and instead of valhalla you will get only a severe case of ass whooping.
[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
We can’t let Prof X have ALL the fun! If you are a T-Nation Christian and wish to join me in prayers for the immortal soul of Pookie, then answer this thread.
And please, no jokes about ‘praying for poontang’ instead!
HH
I have already been praying for Pookie. Pookie hold very stong beliefs in evolution and in man himself. He is highly intelligent, and well spoken, but unfortunately, these things will not get us into Heaven.
Pookie will tell you that there is “no such thing as heaven,” and so it doesn’t bother him that he can’t go “to a place that doesn’t exist.”
We who do know the truth of God’s Word, need to pray for Pookie, Vroom, Fighting Irish, Harris, Miniross, and all the others who obviously are headed for a Christless eternity in the flames and fires of Hell.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
What would make you think we’d want you? Since you are fascinated with assigning ‘sins of ommission’ to innocent people, I can’t imagine anyone would want you around.
[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
pookie wrote:
This thread makes pookie sad.
: (
Cheer up Pookie – prayer is good![/quote]
Actually, the thread makes me sad not because people are praying for me, since anyone is free to pray for whoever they wish; it makes me sad because I see a bunch of adults, many of which I’ve had very interesting discussions with on many subjects, sinking to the levels of children and arguing pointlessly about who’s the better Christian or who’s allowed to post about a topic or reply to it. We’ve even got a “who’s the moral superior” pissing contest.
I’ll admit that I’ve been guilty of the same thing many times on many other threads, but when you’re involved in it, I think you don’t notice it as much.
This thread could go on for another 30 pages, but it’s only going to be a shit fest all the way through.
[quote]pookie wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
pookie wrote:
This thread makes pookie sad.
: (
Cheer up Pookie – prayer is good!
Actually, the thread makes me sad not because people are praying for me, since anyone is free to pray for whoever they wish; it makes me sad because I see a bunch of adults, many of which I’ve had very interesting discussions with on many subjects, sinking to the levels of children and arguing pointlessly about who’s the better Christian or who’s allowed to post about a topic or reply to it. We’ve even got a “who’s the moral superior” pissing contest.
I’ll admit that I’ve been guilty of the same thing many times on many other threads, but when you’re involved in it, I think you don’t notice it as much.
This thread could go on for another 30 pages, but it’s only going to be a shit fest all the way through.
[/quote]
Yes – I do understand, but you know that this is really (and you said this as much)the way it is with mostthreads.
When you have very strong opinions on two sides of any ‘issue’ this is what often happesns.
I just wish those on the ‘other side’ of a literal interpretation of the Bible and the existence of God and Jesus Christ (i.e. those that don’t believe) wouldn’t resort to silly “I believe in Thor,” etc. arguments which only show that there is no argument.
I could say that "I believe that “tree man” will save me and he lives in the forests of Bora Bora, etc., but that would only amount to being silly and stupid and not contributing anything intelligent to the thread.
What people have to understand is that they should think before they post and then post positions with arguments germainto the points being discussed.
[quote]vroom wrote:
I have already been praying for Pookie. Pookie hold very stong beliefs in evolution and in man himself. He is highly intelligent, and well spoken, but unfortunately, these things will not get us into Heaven.
…
We who do know the truth of God’s Word, need to pray for Pookie, Vroom, Fighting Irish, Harris, Miniross, and all the others who obviously are headed for a Christless eternity in the flames and fires of Hell.
Heh, on the first part, yeah, see, you CAN do your praying for another without crowing about it publicly (I don’t consider your statement to be crowing about it).
On the second part, I don’t believe one needs to be a fundamentalist/literalist to find or accept God. In any case, I doubt it is for you (or I) to judge who will or won’t be spending eternity in hell.
Perhaps, since this is a religious thread already, you could tell me specifically why you think I’m bound for hell and why you think you are qualified to make that judgment?[/quote]
Great question Vroom, and I will be more than glad to ablige.
I am only qualified to judge, because I am not the ultimate judge. The ultimate judge is Jesus Christ and He left instructions about these things in the Word of God – the Bible.
The Bible is a standard – a ruler, a measuring rod, if you will – that we can hold up to any human situation and see the truth of that situation. In many cases, the Bible doesn’t speak apecifically about a subject – is it OK to see an “R” rated movie, drink wine, and a host of other subjects that we have to make inferencesfrom the Bible, but we don’t have specific scripture. This is fine and causes the believer to “dig” into God’s Word and this in itself helps us live the right way.
However, that being said, in the area of hell and the afterlife, the Bible speaks volumesabout this specifically and clearly. I will post several pertinent scriptures for you, but understand that I could post many many more because they are in the Bible and they are very very clear.
The following scriptures give the standard for those who can go to Heaven and those that are bound for the eternal fires of Hell. Vroom, these are not MY words, but GOD’s words, and I have said this many times before on many posts…if you don’t like it, you’re argument is not with me, but it is with God Himself.
[i][b]"…Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. Acts 16:30-31
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” John 3:16-18
"The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all thingsc that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear." Matthew 13:41-43
“So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.” Matthew 13:49-50
"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Revelation 21:8
[/b][/i]
Vroom, the good news is that it doesn’t have to be this way for you or for anyone. As long as you are still alive, you CAN believe. Your choice!
Accept the free gift of salvation – God is so good!
[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
Yes – I do understand, but you know that this is really (and you said this as much)the way it is with mostthreads. [/quote]
Well some threads are better than others. They aren’t the majority, unfortunately, but now and again a good discussion from opposed viewpoints springs up and goes on for a few pages. It can be about anything, and generally both sides will learn something, if only how the other side arrive to their conclusion. Usually, no one changes the opinion they had, but a better understanding of the “opposition” is still a good thing.
Yes, unfortunately. But long strings of ad hominen and mud slinging really doesn’t contribute anything. Sometimes it can be funny, but often it’s just mean spirited and simply makes both sides look like idiots.
I believe the point they’re trying to make is that at all times people have held strong beliefs in “faiths” that are nowadays considered silly. From the point of view of someone who doesn’t hold your beliefs, your current faith appears no more valid than old Norse beliefs or Egyptian mythology. It’s the same thing, with different terminology and characters.
That’s because from your point of view, the “Thor guys” are comparing your belief, which is “the truth” to you, with a silly belief. From your point of view, that makes no sense. Especially since the “Thor guys” don’t really believe in Thor. I hope. : )
Good advice, but when religion is involved, it is easy for tempers to flare up and for all civility to fly out the window. I don’t expect this to change anytime soon.
What bothers me here is that I started the thread for a specific purpose. Several people then came to spew on it. They bitched about a religious thread.
But, if you don’t like what’s on the old Telly, do you watch the show? Or do you skip it? Why don’t people who want to spew simply skip the thread, unless they have some sort of compulsion to do this?
Then there’s Vroom. How do you argue with someone whose response is: “I don’t do that. You do that!”, and then accepts his statement as a proof?! Or, alternately, he says he was being sarcastic or humorous. “Well, let’s pray for censorship!” Oh, it was just sarcasm.
Since he has no objective standards and admits nothing that would show him up, how do you argue with a person like that? Arguing with Vroom is like arguing with a bowl of Jello…except the Jello might be more rational.
We who do know the truth of God’s Word, need to pray for Pookie, Vroom, Fighting Irish, Harris, Miniross, and all the others who obviously are headed for a Christless eternity in the flames and fires of Hell.
[/quote]
You go to heaven for the weather and hell for the company.
Have fun. Me, Shakespeare, Hemingway, Rimbaud, Baudelaire, Aristotle, and all the other writers and philosophers will be chillen drinking jack Daniels.
What bothers me here is that I started the thread for a specific purpose. Several people then came to spew on it. They bitched about a religious thread.
[/quote]
Wow you are getting arrogant. No, you started another thread so you could look down your nose at us filthy little atheists.
Keep your prayers and your threads. This is some bullshit.
[quote]miniross wrote:
orion wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
SIt should be plain to anyone reading your words to see how liberals are really hidden little fascists, wanting censorship over others and crushing of anything they happen to disagree with.
So long, and thanks for all the fish…
I imagine that will be lost on HH.[/quote]
I believe you are correct… the quote was rather lost on HH.
Can we all not see how sadly pathetic all of this is and how of little benefit it serves?
I do believe that religious discussions are healthy and can be of benefit to those ready to actually discuss the topic in a mature and proper manner. However, as far as I have seen, the majority of religious topics on this site can hardly be said to be of any benefit to anyone. Instead of being mature and respectful discussions on ideas they turn into something more closely resembling public masturbation. Can you all not see that such things gain you nothing, after all, what learning can be done when you can’t hear a word over the clash of swords.
“Lined up in our different camps, throats swollen, eyes rolling like a newborn colt’s, sweat running down our shoulders, we charge forward into battle.”
In the end we have nothing to show for it but bruised ego’s, and opinions only further cut into our minds. Nothing positive is gained, no one is saved from their “ignorance” no matter what side you are on. Some may walk away with a feeling of greatness that they have defended their cause, but all they have done is made those around them jaded and further closed their minds.
“Hence to fight and conquer in all your battles in not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy’s resistance without fighting”
Discuss ideas to your hearts content, discussion with someone who believes differently than you is one of the best ways to grow, (which correct me if I’m wrong, is why most of us are here) these inane troglodytic displays however, are not.
[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
Great question Vroom, and I will be more than glad to ablige.[/quote]
Holy shit, I can’t believe you had the temerity to tackle this issue.
You are in no way qualified to judge.
At the most simple level, that even you should understand, you have zero understanding of what is in my heart or what is in my mind.
You are a fool to believe otherwise.
The bible has a lot to say about how people should behave. It can be a good source of wisdom for people that are seeking guidance.
I will contend that most Christians are not fundamental literalists. You may choose that as your belief, but the majority do not. Serious conflicts and discrepancies arise when attempting to interpret the bible in a literal manner.
I will go further. I believe that fundamentalism is an abomination used by men to force their views on others since the dawn of religion. I will never play a part in such a mockery of self-determination and choice as given to us.
Did you catch that? Part of the basic concept of religion is choice. The choices we make. The weaknesses we either fall prey to or avoid. Creating a fundamentalist lockstep seeks to protect us from our weaknesses, to deny us the ability to make our choices, and to, in essence, do good.
It is not enough that we are alive. We must make choices and face our weaknesses. We should not seek to remove those choices from the paths of others, though we can offer counsel IF THEY WANT IT.
Sorry, I don’t have any scriptures to quote, so I’m sure this all means absolutely nothing to you.
[quote]However, that being said, in the area of hell and the afterlife, the Bible speaks volumesabout this specifically and clearly. I will post several pertinent scriptures for you, but understand that I could post many many more because they are in the Bible and they are very very clear.
The following scriptures give the standard for those who can go to Heaven and those that are bound for the eternal fires of Hell. Vroom, these are not MY words, but GOD’s words, and I have said this many times before on many posts…if you don’t like it, you’re argument is not with me, but it is with God Himself.[/quote]
My argument is with you because you have the gall to judge other men and deem them bound for hell.
I can’t believe you think you have the wisdom to decide who is or is not a worthy soul.
Somwhow, usurping that role for yourself seems awfully dangerous to me… I’d never do it.
I don’t even need to read the rest of the bullshit posted… as it all basically attempts to describe hell.
Guess what, you don’t have to be a fundamental literalist clown to believe in Jesus.
What makes you think you have the amazing mental powers to divine who does and who does not believe?
The fact that my interpretation is very different than your ridiculous and embarassing rendition is immaterial in the bigger picture. Why? Because in essence there is one and only one requirement. It doesn’t much matter what the rest of the bible discusses.
The bible also does not suggest that it in itself is something to be worshipped. It is paper. It is a book. It is an object. It is nothing but some instructions. I can disparage the bible, and your interpretation of it, without disparaging God.
Christianity is about your own struggles with human weaknesses, not about figuring out who is and who isn’t bound for heaven and hell.
It is most certainly not about lording your piety over those that are not as pure, in your estimation. It is not to be used as a fucking scorecard.
Anyway, I will contend again that coopting commercial forums for your own purposes is trespassing, and you should ask yourself if that is appropriate.
Now, if you wish to discuss issues, instead of preach and convert the unwilling, then have at it. Beware however, one can easily lead to the other.
“Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment” (John 7:24). “But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man” (1 Corinthians 2:14-15).
Human beings engage in judgment every day. They judge quality and quantity. They judge distance and time. They categorize and summarize. Everyone with a mind engages in judgment.
Human beings also engage in judgment concerning good and evil, right and wrong, and saved and lost. They all have some standard by which they make these judgments. Those who are unregenerate make these judgments according to their depraved natures; they do not have the ability to make right spiritual judgments. The standard by which they judge is usually based on outward appearance, sincerity, and/or reputation. They judge themselves and others to be in God’s favor based on their supposed “good deeds” while judging others to be out of God’s favor based on the others’ “bad deeds.” Jesus exposed this self-righteous judgment in the Sermon on the Mount: “Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again” (Matthew 7:1-2).
In light of this, what does God command of those who are indwelt by the Holy Spirit? Does God say that, since by nature all men judge by the wrong standard, His people are to refrain from judging? Any student of Scripture knows that God does not say that; in fact, He commands the very opposite: the people of God are to make spiritual judgments. We are to be a judging people.
Many religionists today think it is humble and pious to say things like, “I can’t judge. I don’t know their hearts. I can’t be sure. I’m not the Holy Spirit. I leave the judging to God.” But what does God’s Word say?
In the same chapter in which Jesus forbade self-righteous judgment, He said, “Give not that which is holy unto dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you” (v. 6), and “Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. … Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them” (vv. 15-20). How are we to know who the swine, dogs, and false prophets are without judging? Notice that Jesus did not say, “Give not that which is holy unto those whom you think are probably dogs … Beware of those whom you think are probably false prophets … Ye shall have a pretty good chance of being right if you look at their fruits.” No! He said, “Ye SHALL know them.” We SHALL know who the dogs, swine, and false prophets are. We SHALL know the state of their hearts.
God commands us, “Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers” (2 Corinthians 6:14). How can we obey this commandment if we can never be sure whether or not someone has an unbelieving heart? Notice that God did not say, “Do not be bound together with those who you think have a high probability of being unbelievers.” God is stating that we will know who the unbelievers are and that we are not to be bound together with them. He goes on to mention unrighteousness, darkness, Belial, infidels, and idols as those things with which the believer is to have no fellowship (vv. 14-16); judgment of what unrighteousness, darkness, Belial, infidels, and idols are is an absolute necessity for God’s people in order for us to “come out from among them, and be ye separate” and to “touch not the unclean [thing]” (v. 17). If you will not judge saved and lost, then you will not come out of Babylon (Revelation 18:4).
God commands us, “Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world” (1 John 4:1). It cannot be clearer. God’s people are to judge between false and true prophets. And we SHALL be able to know whether they are from God.
How shall we know? After all, we can’t read people’s minds. We can’t directly see people’s hearts. No, but Jesus states that we can judge the heart by judging the direct channel that comes from the heart: the mouth. After stating that “every tree is known by his own fruit” (Luke 6:44), Jesus states what that fruit is: “for out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh” (v. 45). We CAN judge the heart by what proceeds from the mouth. The words spoken are the fruit of the state of the heart.
But is this talking about just any words? Does this mean, for example, that if someone utters a vulgarity we are to judge the person unregenerate? Here is where judging righteous judgment comes in. The standard that the true believer uses to judge saved and lost is THE GOSPEL.
There are two types of speech by which we judge a person to be lost. The first is speech that confesses a false gospel. “If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed” (Galatians 1:9). “Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God” (2 John 9). Confession of a false gospel is a confession that any part of salvation is conditioned on the sinner. It opposes the true gospel of salvation conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Christ alone. It is speech that denies Christ (1 John 2:22-23; 4:3). It is speech that denies one’s own sinfulness (1 John 1:8,10). It is confessed by those who, “being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God” (Romans 10:3).
The second is speech that tolerates and endorses a false gospel by “saying, Peace, peace; when [there is] no peace” (Jeremiah 6:14; 8:11). He who calls one who confesses a false gospel his “brother in Christ” speaks the lie of Satan, “Ye shall not surely die” (Genesis 3:4). He “speaks great swelling [words] of vanity” (2 Peter 2:18). God makes it very clear in 2 John 11 that he who speaks peace to one who confesses a false gospel “is partaker of his evil deeds” (see the article on 2 John 11 in this issue for a more extensive treatment of this verse). These are those who judge saved and lost not by right gospel doctrine but by outward appearance, morality, sincerity, and reputation.
Are Christians then to judge that these people are reprobate (i.e., destined for hell)? By no means. We cannot judge their eternal destiny by these words; this is only known by God. We are only to judge that they are now unregenerate. God might save some of these lost people who believe, confess, and tolerate a false gospel; some of them might be among God’s elect. One thing is sure: if God saves them, they will no longer believe, confess, and tolerate a false gospel! Upon regeneration and conversion, God causes His people to believe and confess the one and only true gospel.
To most, this method of judgment sounds ridiculous. “You mean to tell me that you judge someone lost who doesn’t have his doctrine just right?” In the area of the doctrine of Christ, which is the gospel, the Bible answers, “YES.” The Bible does not make belief in right gospel doctrine a condition of salvation (in fact, it says that those who hold to this view are lost); but it does make belief in right gospel doctrine an inevitable and immediate result of salvation and a fruit by which we judge saved and lost.
Reader – Are you one who opposes God’s word by saying that you cannot judge saved and lost? (I would submit that most of you who say this do judge saved and lost in some instances based on some standard. If you see a woman who is a practicing harlot, would you say, “Well, I can’t really judge her heart”?) Are you one who judges by the wrong standard? Are you one who confesses a false gospel? Are you one who tolerates and/or promotes those who confess a false gospel? Or are you one who judges saved and lost based on God’s testimony and will not speak peace when there is no peace?
And thus it is clearly shown again and again, that when it comes to a certain book, pookie simply cannot put into practice basic rules of grammar: context, syntax, definitions of words, etc. Surprise, surprise.
[quote]vroom wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
Great question Vroom, and I will be more than glad to ablige.
Holy shit, I can’t believe you had the temerity to tackle this issue.
[/quote]
Why not? If the Bible is God’s Word (and it is) it has the answers!
Vroom, do you need eyeglasses? If you read what I wrote, I said that Jesus Christ is the judge. I can judge only on His judgement which is recorded, thankfully, in His Word.
You conveniently “forget” to read what I actually write, build a strawman, and then attack it. Not a good strategy for intellectual conversation and debate…
Exactly right! However, God knows your heart (and my heart) quite well! God’s Word says that both of our hearts are despirately wicked – who can know it? However, my heart has been submitted voluntarily to the Lord. You have stated in numerous threads that you heart is not submitted to the Lord – therefore while I am not “judging” you the way God does and will, I am making a conclusion based upon God’s Word [b] and your own statements.[/b]
Now who’s doing the judging?
I’ll say it can – it IS the perfect source for wisdom. “The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.” Proverbs 9:10
Like what?
So Vroom believes it and it is so? I thought you are against “absolute truths?” Is it that you are against this, except when you think that YOU are absolutely true?
The fact is that fundamentalism is says nothing more than if you are going to call yourself “Christian” and hold up the Bible as the book that you live by, then you should seek to live by it all. Because that’s what the Bible itself says to do! . Also, and I really hate to break this piece of news to you, but the early church as recorded in the book of acts and in the epistles, were indeed fundamentalists! So, if you believe all these bad things about fundamentalists, then you are saying that the Apostle Paul, John, Peter, etc. were hate mongering lunatics? Are you serious?
Exactly right! You can choose to take the free gift of salvation or not. The Bible has many examples of people choosing to belive the Gospel, and those who do not. The important point is that God doesn’t force anyone to believe – you can take it or leave it. However, there are clear consequences for both choices and Jesus makes this very very clear Himself in His Word.
Not true at all. Look at the scriptures that Pookie quoted in a post above about the natural man not wanting the things of God. Choice is part of God’s plan. He didn’t make robots – he made us in His own image. We have a will – a limited will, but a will nonetheless. We are responsible before God for the choices we make, but we certainly can make them. You are clearly wrong here, but you are allowed to be wrong (at least in America).
I am willing to hear your opinions and thoughts and respect that you have the right to them. You don’t have scriptures to back these things up, because there are none. God gives us choices – His Word gives us the correct pathway. We can, however, choose to go off the path. It is like having a map and a trail in the forest. We can follow the map if we choose to and believe the one who wrote the map. We can also CHOOSE to go off the marked trail, forget the map, and go it alone. However, we can’t blame the mapmaker if we fall over the cliff!
Vroom, I tackled this clear falsehood earlier – now stop it!
Again, God decides – read what I wrote and then you should read what Jesus wrote. In fact, who cares what I write – look up what Jesus wrote and believe Him. He decides the eternity of us all…not me!
Blah, blah, blah, blah,…really you need to get some other thing to say…
Blah, blah, blah, blah…
Yes, there is one requirement for salvation, but the Bible is very clear on what salvation does and what salvation lived out in someone’s life looks and sounds like. I won’t bother with all the Scriptures on this subject, but I can if you wish.
The fact is Vroom, that your talk doesn’t match the walk of a true Christian – according to God’s Word (not mine). I am not judging you Vroom – do you hear that? I am not judging – God is the judge and He gives very clear standards for us to know other true believers…
No you can’t:
"In the begining was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1
The Word of God = God Himself…Jesus is the “Living Word” of God. So disparaging God’s Word is disparaging God. Also, look at Genesis to see how Satan disparaged God by disparaging God’s Word.
Good try, but it again does not hold theological water!
Christianity is about Christ and following and living for Him.
I have no “piety” of my own, nor righteousness of my own. I owe all to God and it is to God that I owe all.
Why the foul language Vroom? Do you believe that you will come off more intellectual that way? It is not very Christian of you…
No more appropriate or inappropriate for you to “coopt” commercial forums to advance your philosophy, athesism, Darwinism, etc. Why do you only say this about Fundamental Christians? Why don’t we have the same rights as the atheists to you? Ridiculous argument!
[quote]
Now, if you wish to discuss issues, instead of preach and convert the unwilling, then have at it. Beware however, one can easily lead to the other.[/quote]
I am discussing issues – Biblical issues – and the last time I looked Vroom, you have been discussing it too. So if you really feel this way, then just not post on these threads. Simple isn’t it?
Read the Bible Vroom, so at least when you do post, you can know what you are talking about.
Steveo
I hope you don’t mind my interrupting your current discussion with vroom, but reading your post brought up a curiosity of mine that I haven’t been able to have answered. Unfortunate downside of moving so often is I don’t have the circle of friends near by with which to have good conversation.
My question is: I remember from my days in church, and see it even now, the word choice. A Christian must choose to accept Jesus into his/her heart as their personal savior, and through their acceptance in Jesus will be saved. God can be defined basically as a being that is omniscient, omnipotent, and complete goodness. I do realize that it is a bit general, but it serves the current needs for this idea. If god is omniscient then how can free will exist? How can choice exist?
If the future is known, whether it be known to a plant, snail, dragon, or god, then there is no choice. If the future is known then our paths have been decided at the birth of our universe, and try as we might, we cannot deviate from this path.
Anyone else can feel free to chime in on this one and feel free to point out any flaws in my logic that you may see.
[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
Why not? If the Bible is God’s Word (and it is) it has the answers!
I am only qualified to judge, because I am not the ultimate judge. The ultimate judge is Jesus Christ and He left instructions about these things in the Word of God – the Bible.
[/quote]
Here… which road to salvation is yours in this list?
No, you are presumptious. You can look things up in a little book and tally transgressions here and there, but you don’t have enough information. You can guess… and that is all you do.
[quote]You have stated in numerous threads that you heart is not submitted to the Lord – therefore while I am not “judging” you the way God does and will, I am making a conclusion based upon God’s Word [b] and your own statements.[/b]
[/quote]
Have I really? You might want to learn to read yourself. Also, if your interpretation of what I have written is this far off, then perhaps you may need to reassess some other interpretations.
Don’t be silly. You and I know this is nothing like the other.
No, unfortunately it is a book written by people. As such, it does it’s best to point us in the right direction, but we are forced to make choices and interpretations.
Just follow the link above, and see how many different interpretations there are. Or, read extol above, with yet another interpretation.
Do you truly believe the majority of humanity is condemned to hell because they have been brought up under an interpretation other than yours?
Who said I was against absolute truths? Yet again you are making baseless interpretations and guesses simply because you are reading what others have said, perhaps. You should be more careful.
Funny, how you can claim your beliefs to be true, but nobody else can claim their beliefs to be true.
They were apostles, nothing more. No need to diefy them. If they sought to force people to behave in a certain way, as opposed to simply giving them advice, then they would be misguided.
Which salvation are you referring to (as per my initial link)?
Once again, I ask you where you came to the conclusion that I have rejected anything?
What exactly is it that you think I have rejected?
You miss my point, as I am arguing that we should not attempt to make choices for people – as the choices they make are significant.
How many things are you misinterpreting Steveo? Quite a lot by my count.
Well, then, perhaps you should not have written a list of names of people that you thought were bound for hell.
In fact, I don’t care what you write, and I’ve been trying to tell you why. I believe you are operating under a set of false assumptions.
[quote]Yes, there is one requirement for salvation, but the Bible is very clear on what salvation does and what salvation lived out in someone’s life looks and sounds like. I won’t bother with all the Scriptures on this subject, but I can if you wish.
The fact is Vroom, that your talk doesn’t match the walk of a true Christian – according to God’s Word (not mine). I am not judging you Vroom – do you hear that? I am not judging – God is the judge and He gives very clear standards for us to know other true believers…[/quote]
The last thing the bible does is offer clear standards. That is why there are so many competing religions on the planet.
I’m glad to hear you are going to give up on listing the names of those destined for hell. I thought it was a very inappropriate thing to do.
[quote]No you can’t:
"In the begining was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1
The Word of God = God Himself…Jesus is the “Living Word” of God. So disparaging God’s Word is disparaging God. Also, look at Genesis to see how Satan disparaged God by disparaging God’s Word. [/quote]
Hello, Jesus is the “Living Word” of God. Jesus is not the bible. The words in the bible are written by men, and certainly subject to interpretation. As such, it cannot be the word of God itself.
This is just saying you should live your life well. You should make good choices. However, under some interpretations there are other things that need to be done.
Which interpretation are you basing your statements on?
LOL.
I don’t believe the use of foul language has anything to do with Christianity. I certainly don’t think it will cause anyone to appear more intellectual.
I see this as just another way to place wrappings of piety around oneself. I’ll wear certain clothes, I’ll use certain words, I’ll eat certain foods, and by this I will be closer to God.
What a pile of horseshit.
You do. Obviously. What makes you think you don’t? However, athiests generally don’t go starting thread after thread after thread to the annoyance of others attempting to use the forums.
Regardless, your right to bash on the athiest thread is balanced by my right to bash on each and every religious thread. Quit whining about your rights when they aren’t being restricted in any way.
At times you discuss issues. We are sort of discussing issues at this point.
Again, to the point of telling me to read the bible. I find the bible has very little of relevance to say.
It all boils down to a very simple list of basic tenets.
[quote]Agnostic wrote:
Steveo
I hope you don’t mind my interrupting your current discussion with vroom, but reading your post brought up a curiosity of mine that I haven’t been able to have answered. Unfortunate downside of moving so often is I don’t have the circle of friends near by with which to have good conversation.
My question is: I remember from my days in church, and see it even now, the word choice. A Christian must choose to accept Jesus into his/her heart as their personal savior, and through their acceptance in Jesus will be saved. God can be defined basically as a being that is omniscient, omnipotent, and complete goodness. I do realize that it is a bit general, but it serves the current needs for this idea. If god is omniscient then how can free will exist? How can choice exist?
If the future is known, whether it be known to a plant, snail, dragon, or god, then there is no choice. If the future is known then our paths have been decided at the birth of our universe, and try as we might, we cannot deviate from this path.
Anyone else can feel free to chime in on this one and feel free to point out any flaws in my logic that you may see.
[/quote]
Agnostic,
Great question and I will try to answer you.
The fact is that the Bible teaches that God is absolutely sovereign, omnicient, omnipotent, and all the other infinite attributes of the Divine. The Bible also teaches that man does have choice as seen again in the scriptures where someone excercies faith, and Jesus, on the basis of that show of faith, pardons that person’s sins. The fact that salvation is characterized as a “free gift” and must be actively “taken” by a person in order to be saved also demonstrates this point of choice. Furthermore, the scriptures which says that one must “believe” and “whosoever believes,” etc. shows that volitional choice on the part of man is necessary for salvation to take place.
God is not limited as we are in time or in space. It is nothing for God to know what choices man will make in the future and at the same time, not be the cause of that choice.
Let me say this again because it is essential – God, through His Divine Omnicience, can know what man will do or will not do without being the cause of man’s actions. Certainly, the Bible does not teach that God [i]caused Adam and Eve to sin in the Garden[/i]. The fact that God knew this would happen and provided redemption for Adam and all of his decendents, just shows that God really does know all, not that He causes all.
This is a very breif answer, and due to time I will leave it at this, but I will certainly discuss this more if you have more questions on this.
