Praying for Pookie

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
202

[quote]vroom wrote:
Wonderful. Another atheist who thinks the Bible is worthless yet quotes it for his own selfish pleasure.

LOL.

You should be more careful. Disagreeing with some prideful fundamentalists does not make one an athiest.

Neither do I think the bible is worthless.

As it often makes points via stories, let me attempt to use a simple story to illustrate my point.

It is a roadmap. You and I are both looking at the map and we will obviously be taking different roads. However, we are both trying to get to the same destination.

I think my path is more likely to take me there than your path of prideful arrogance and diefication of the words of men.

You and your ilk are so blinded by your own feelings of virtue, of believing you are better than others, that you have become blind.

The reason so many people are speaking out against you is because they believe you have erred in your ways. Rejecting wisdom because you do not appreciate the source of the telling is not helping your cause…

Alternately, and consider this carefully, are you just getting upset because people are preaching their own beliefs back to you when you don’t really want to hear them?
[/quote]

You should go back and read. I didn’t reject anything. I think the versus are quite prudent. But, I don’t think you have any credibiliy when you are quoting them.

Take the Bible as it is vroom, or leave it. Stop trying to pick and choose.

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[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
danmaftei wrote:
The one redeeming quality of this thread was Irish and FlopHat pulling a “my God is better than your God” argument.

And in that light, I say that Gilgamesh is by far the coolest and most badass God. I mean, holy shit, what a fucking awesome name. If it was in any way respectable I would change my name to Gilgamesh.

Fuck Gilgamesh.

I saw him bang out with Apollo once. I wasn’t impressed. [/quote]

Here’s how much I’m impressed with Apollo: I had to Wikipedia his name to find out who the fuck he is.

Your God is so gay, I saw him make out with Adonis. I mean yeah, he’s the most beautiful man of all time, with really charming blue eyes, and sure he’s got an ass you can melt butter on, but seriously, that’s just gay.

Anywhoo, all this talk about being gay reminds me of this Simpsons quote which really quite sums my feelings very well. Homer’s having a pre-rapture meeting with the town citizens and Ned shows up and asks what they’re talking about, so Homer says “Uh, we’re having a discussion about gay witches for abortion. You wouldn’t be interested.”

HA.

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Makkun

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[quote]Go-Rilla wrote:
Zeb,

You are in need of serious counseling.

Either you are getting a big kick out of this foolishness you are spouting or you are twisted beyond anyone but
God’s ability to help you.

Seek help from a qualified Pastor. If you don’t get anywhere there I’d suggest a good mental health physician.

If you are just getting your kicks then congratulations…we’ve been helping you amuse yourself.

[/quote]

Thank you.

After looking at your anti-Christian rhetoric I consider that to be yet another compliment. Hence, I know I am on the right road still!

Jesus Christ IS the son of God and he came to this earth in order to save us from the penalty of our sins. If you accept him you are saved. If you don’t you are not saved.

That you don’t want to hear the above comes as no surprise to me. But I do thank you for giving me another opportunity to point out that very important never changing fact!

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[quote]vroom wrote:

First, as with Steveo declaring me bound for hell, your statement is offensive to me.[/quote]

vroom first off thanks for reading my post. As I have said many times in the past you are one of the brightest guys on this forum.

As to your statement above, there is no way to reconcile this fact. And as I have already stated, that is one (and perhaps the main) reason why Christians seem so offensive.

And that is something that cannot change.

Sorry, I didn’t write the book. I try to live by it and sometimes fail miserably.

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[quote]Professor X wrote:
ZEB wrote:
I have never once related being Christian to being republican or conservative.

But one of your cohorts that you are running to protect did.[/quote]

I didn’t like the “piling on” that he did not deserve for simply putting up a post. Did you like it when they piled on you a few weeks back? I didn’t participate in that thread even though I thought ‘some’ of the things that they were saying were true. I thought enough was enough.

Examine closely what I have posted. Most of the people who are attacking on this thread and the other current Christian thread are either atheists or agnostics. They are certainly not Christians and they never claimed to be. You on the other hand have called yourself a Christian before (Unless I have that wrong).

That’s why I stated to you: “You are a good little lap dog for the atheists pox…Keep it up maybe they’ll let you in.”

Thus, I did not call you an atheist. Don’t bother to apologize. :slight_smile:

I would much rather be grouped with a Christian whom YOU think is unworthy than the current group of atheists that you are defending. Not that many of them are not decent people…But I’m not ashamed of my faith and speaking out about Jesus Christ when the opportunity arises.

And as long as we are on the topic, if you do a tally of ALL of the Christian threads that have been posted over the past year on this forum it would be a tiny fraction of the total.

And as has been suggested if you don’t like the Christian threads stay out of them. I mean…that’s the advice that you or anyone else would give if someone were to interrupt a thread on “motorcycles” or “tattoos” etc. I think that Christianity should be held at least as high as these subjects. Even by non-Christains (not you).

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[quote]Professor X wrote:
Headhunter wrote:

May I ask just what you’re talking about? Are you somehow making a wierd analogy with Columbine?

It doesn’t surprise me that it needs further explanation. After all, you are supposedly a teacher. The analogy refers to how people can still be responsible for misdeedss even if they claim ignorance of the result. Your thread here was taken seriously by no one, including thunderbolt who I very rarely agree with on anything at all. You are a fraud and I have considered you a troll since the first day you posted. It would appear that this sentiment is growing.

You were mistaken about no prayer being said on the thread and you ascribed ill intent to my thread. I think you should apologize and fess up. You are not a mind reader and this is not a comic book/movie.

A blanket of bullshit does not answer any of this, Professor.

I have no respect for you or your lame attempt to pray on an internet discussion forum through written word while, as you yourself stated, you were being light hearted about the entire issue. You are lame. Consider yourself exposed.
[/quote]

LMAO! You lied about no one praying for Pookie publicly (I did) and claim that I did all this to ‘feel superior’? Yeah, being bashed for my beliefs really does make me feel superior. Being called a liar for wanting to have prayers for a man who signed my "Jaws of Satan’ pledge makes me a troll? What contemptable bullshit!

Professor, if anyone is a fraud here, it is you. You cannot admit that someone might actually, from the goodness of his heart, openly pray for a person. Since you cannot admit the possibility that a man can do something like this for a good cause, you make pronouncement on your own life. You are a nihilist, Professor. You believe that the world is empty and meaningless.

I, on the other hand, KNOW that God is good. I know that the handiwork of the Lord is a masterpiece. I do not, as you do, think that the world is an evil and empty place. You poor negative little man…I hope that God will show himself to you one day. Then you’ll know just what I’m talking about.

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[quote]Headhunter wrote:
LMAO! You lied about no one praying for Pookie publicly (I did) and claim that I did all this to ‘feel superior’?
[/quote]

If you call the playful pretense you posted a true prayer, that says everything right there. Words strung together into sentences do not make a prayer without the true intention behind it. I am done with you and this thread.

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Going back to Agnostic?s question
I too have thought along similar lines, and come to the conclusion:

If we have choice, there can be no god. Or, if there is no choice, the bible is wrong, and being wrong ? all that is in it is suspect.

My logic is thus.

If god is omnipotent, omnisicient, omnipresent ? ie knows all, sees all, is present for all, as Agnostic said, god is aware at all times of a person sinning and not accepting jesus. That means god is aware at all times who will got to heaven or hell.
But god knows from day dot that I?m not going to accept jesus, so I?m condememd from before my grandparents were born, to hell. In this case is no choice. You may say god didn?t influence or cause me to accept the saviour, you may say there were plenty of opportunities for me to accept the saviour. But the fact that he is all knowing, and thus must know that I?m never going to accept this saviour…
So does that mean from the moment the universe was created, theres been a special spot reserved for me in hell?

Now if god is presenting me opportunities to accept jesus, hoping I will, then either god is not omnipitent (ie doesn?t know if I will change and accept) or knows I will not and is just going through the motions of presenting options, knowing I have no choices.

Either A god is not omnipotent ? thus not a god
Or B there is no choice.

I can’t play in a religion with such obvious flaws.

give me a blood and guts god like Mars any day of the week - at least you know where you stand!
just a side thought - ever wondered why all our gods throughout human history have been basically a personification of our emotions or desires?
War gods, gods of jealousy and envy, beauty, judgement, wisdom, speed, and of course self-sacrifice - and thats not even going near the various ancester worship beliefs…

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[quote]ShaunW wrote:
Going back to Agnostic?s question
I too have thought along similar lines, and come to the conclusion:

If we have choice, there can be no god. Or, if there is no choice, the bible is wrong, and being wrong ? all that is in it is suspect.

My logic is thus.

If god is omnipotent, omnisicient, omnipresent ? ie knows all, sees all, is present for all, as Agnostic said, god is aware at all times of a person sinning and not accepting jesus. That means god is aware at all times who will got to heaven or hell.
But god knows from day dot that I?m not going to accept jesus, so I?m condememd from before my grandparents were born, to hell. In this case is no choice. You may say god didn?t influence or cause me to accept the saviour, you may say there were plenty of opportunities for me to accept the saviour. But the fact that he is all knowing, and thus must know that I?m never going to accept this saviour…
So does that mean from the moment the universe was created, theres been a special spot reserved for me in hell?

Now if god is presenting me opportunities to accept jesus, hoping I will, then either god is not omnipitent (ie doesn?t know if I will change and accept) or knows I will not and is just going through the motions of presenting options, knowing I have no choices.

Either A god is not omnipotent ? thus not a god
Or B there is no choice.

I can’t play in a religion with such obvious flaws.

give me a blood and guts god like Mars any day of the week - at least you know where you stand!
just a side thought - ever wondered why all our gods throughout human history have been basically a personification of our emotions or desires?
War gods, gods of jealousy and envy, beauty, judgement, wisdom, speed, and of course self-sacrifice - and thats not even going near the various ancester worship beliefs…[/quote]

Good observations from a human perspective ShaunW. However, this is exactly the God of the Bible. Now you might not like the fact that you cannot apprehend God fully in your intellect. Remember, if we could do that – i.e. understand all of His ways – then He would also cease to be God.

The problem for most people (and I include MYSELF in this since I was an agnostic for the better part of my life) is that we want a God of our own imagination. We have an idea of what God should be like, and we don’t like a God that does not fit our mold of what we think God should be.

What better proof is there that God does give us a “free will” and mind to think for ourselves and accept or reject the Gospel. Again, it should present no problem for if God is God, then of course He knows who will accept and who will reject. However, the accepting or rejecting is all on our part – not His. The Bible clearly presents salvation as a free gift and that it is available to “all who believe.” Since God cannot lie, this must be true.

The fact is that one is saved by faith. There are numerous examples of Jesus, in the Gospels, responding to a person’s faith. Read the Gospels and see for yourself. Ask God in prayer to show you the truth of His Word. He will do so…

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[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Was gone for a while.

What bothers me here is that I started the thread for a specific purpose. Several people then came to spew on it. They bitched about a religious thread.

Wow you are getting arrogant. No, you started another thread so you could look down your nose at us filthy little atheists.

Keep your prayers and your threads. This is some bullshit.

Hey, he admitted his atheism. Good, now admit your nihilism and you’re on the road to recovery, buddy!

I didn’t say I was an atheist. I have never said that. Ever. That comment was dripping in sarcasm.

You and the rest of them look down on all those that either don’t believe or aren’t sure.

Just the fact that you are “Praying for me” is screaming arrogance and elitism of the highest nature. Announcing it to everyone is even worse. I don’t want your pity, your prayers, or anything to do with the cultish beliefs I have seen on display here.[/quote]

Oh, how terrible we are for praying for you guys. Oh please forgive us our sin…

…I thought prayer was a good thing? What, prayers from others are good except from those who believe the Bible is the Word of God?.

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Because I don’t feel like asking each of them in their own PMs, to Irish, ProfX and FlopHat, are you guys Christian?

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Thanks for your reply Steveo
But your answer seems to me to be along the standard priestly lines of ?Well if you can?t understand gods ineffability, that?s your problem, just believe and everything will be fine???
I have 2 problems here.

  • According to the bible we are made in ?His own likeness? ? as a species we think logically and with causation in mind. We note the universe and the persistance of logic through mathematics.
    Thus the god of the bible must also work based on logic models ? even if they are too big for us to fathom (ok, I just had an epiphany ? maybe god is a woman?).
    And logically as per my post, we are at the horns of a dilema ? either god exists and knows what we will do ? accept or reject the saviour? and thus we will be damned or not before we are born, as god knows our choice before we are born ? thus no choice. The salvation is thus a carrot hanging just in front of the donkey, who, no matter how far he walks, will never achieve it.

  • Or the bible is wrong, what is written is not gods true word, and all of religion based upon it has been a bad joke (?because Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition?)
    This would lead me to thinking ? if god indeed exists, then the gnostics have got it right (ie direct communion with god on a personal level ? no church, no priest, no bible, no rules, covenants or commandments), and the bible is only good as a moral code, or fire lighter.

The next thing I?d like clarified:
Where does the bible say God cannot / does not lie?
And how ironclad do you believe this statement is?
Reason for query:
The adam and eve story. Did god tell the first lie? ? or maybe that is a bit harsh ? the first mistruth?
Genesis 2:17
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of
good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die

coz from memory ? god kicked them out of the garden, and they didn?t die that day.
So we can?t use the argument that a day in the garden / in god?s time is not the same as a day outside?..

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[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
danmaftei wrote:
Because I don’t feel like asking each of them in their own PMs, to Irish, ProfX and FlopHat, are you guys Christian?

Why does it matter?

I think its pretty obvious that I have serious problems with organized religion, and the entire idea of God is wrapped up in philosophical arguments for me on both sides.

However, I do think that an atheist must lead a pretty hopeless life, just as I think that the blind followers of the Bible lead a pretty unphilosophical life.

To me, the most important thing is to be able to discuss whether or not God exists, because I simply don’t know. Sometimes I believe it, sometimes I don’t.

However, quoting the fucking Bible every time someone questions something is just rdiculous, pointless, and the mark of someone who cannot think objectively.

So I’m kind of a philosopher Catholic.
[/quote]

So are you saying that Catholics don’t believe the Bible?

[quote]

Although I still want to know why this is important at all. If I was a Muslim or a Jew, would that give me more or less credibility? Does it matter what I’m a blind follower of, as long as I follow one of them blindly?[/quote]

Faith is not following something “blindly” Irish. That is not a good point.

When you go into an elevator, you have “faith” that it will hold you and take you up (or down) safely. You are not blindly following anything – you are using your intellect and you are simply choosing to have faith that it will do what it proports to do.

Same thing here – faith in God’s promises is nothing more than an assent – well within our intellectual powers to do so – to trust in God.

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[quote]danmaftei wrote:
Because I don’t feel like asking each of them in their own PMs, to Irish, ProfX and FlopHat, are you guys Christian? [/quote]

Yes, I am. Are you?

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[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
However, I do think that an atheist must lead a pretty hopeless life…[/quote]

I’d like to jump in here for a second. Just because someone doesn’t believe in a benevolent magical overseer doesn’t mean they are without hope.

Example: When I die, that’s it. This realization does not make me feel that my life is an exercise in futility; quite the opposite. An atheist like me will live and love for the moment and for any possible future which may come along… remember, none of us are guaranteed a tomorrow. Do not despair just because you have to be gone someday. Use this knowledge to make the life you are living one of goodness and meaning while you have the chance. Just because there is no such thing as forever doesn’t mean we don’t hold hope in our hearts.

I hope I win the Florida lottery on Wednesday. :slight_smile:

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I’m a deist. My Pop a christian preacher though, so I am familiar with its dogma.

[quote]danmaftei wrote:
Because I don’t feel like asking each of them in their own PMs, to Irish, ProfX and FlopHat, are you guys Christian? [/quote]

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I changed my mind. I’m going with the Norse Pantheon.

[quote]danmaftei wrote:
Because I don’t feel like asking each of them in their own PMs, to Irish, ProfX and FlopHat, are you guys Christian? [/quote]

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i’d like also to take umbridge at this statement:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
However, I do think that an atheist must lead a pretty hopeless life…

BOLLOCKS.

mate, I’m definately anti-deist - any and all deities.
To me the bible is a book, written by men under the impression they were somehow chosen to do a great work. they convinced others and over a long period of time a coherant story was built. Many books were written - some contradicted others, and then a group got together, and cut-and-paste a bunch of these books to build today’s bible.

i don’t understand the need to have something OutThere to hold onto, to have hope in.
i do understand the need to understand Why after a tragic event - but to me, a deity/institution is a crutch, or at best a fanciful helping hand. it’s the people around you that lend the real hand.

We are born alone, in our heads we are alone, and eventually we die alone.
In between these times we do our best to learn and create meaningful (to us) relationships.
I think much better use of our time on this rock, circling our small star, out in the backwoods of a second rate galaxy; can be coming to grips whith who we are - our true selves - the deep inner self that rarely gets shown. the scary bit.
So, to me, its the people around us that we have hope in - that they won’t kick us when were down, that theyll lend that hand when times are tough, that they wont reject us once we expose our deepest selves.

Someone mentioned atheiests (sp?) have faith in the science behind the workings of an elevator, but not in the god behind the world.
But i feel this is missing the point - people don’t have faith in a technology - once something is shown to work (a braking system, the integrity of steel cable, the block and tackle - or the various physics/maths behind all these things); a person needs no faith in it. At least not in the technology. No more than having faith the sun will round the horizon tomorrow. that the stars will wheel overhead each night.

There is faith tho, in people - that the inspection process in the cable factory was 100%, the mantenance people regularly and consistantly look over the machinery, etc.
I think faith used in this way saves us a great deal of time - we don’t have to look at the elevator each time we enter it to assure ourselves of it’s safety. We dont need to, each of us, physically go to the cable factory and monitor their production line, and assess their quality inspection process prior to using their device. It may be an evolutionary thing - take things on face value - if it works, it works. If it’s yellow and stripy and has big teeth, avoid it.
In this manner, faith may be the Unconscious Competancy which mid level managers like to talk about. We experience something, we gain brief knowledge about it, we accept, and move on, assuming what we have learned will remain constant.
In my opinion faith placed in a deity is misplaced - what good is throwing the faith in the air like that, when there are plenty of good things to be using it on down here - like people.

end diatribe

ShaunW

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Today is St. Joseph’s Day, a pretty important holiday in our church. My thoughts and prayers go out to all of you, and especially Pookie.