[quote]vroom wrote:
BTW: Vroom, you should get an ape avatar too. We can compare it to your previous one of the actual you and see which is better looking.
Damn.
I don’t want to discourage you, as it would be great if you developed a sense of humor or an ability to be sarcastic and witty.
Keep working on it… you can only improve![/quote]
Once I develop those, can I use them to excuse myself when I say stupid and/or evil things too?
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
So here is the last Atomic Dog article, from the proprietors of this website:
http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=967425
This article includes discussion of sex, evolution, lust, and plastic surgery. I think a swear word may have even been used.
So, ‘true’ Christians - where was the righteous protest of the article? Where was the outspoken condemnation of such blatant sinful indulgences? What about the discussion of sexual evolution, all of which stands in contrast to the inerring belief of the ‘true’ Christian?
Not a peep.
Yet, here, we are entreated to smug complaints that we don’t speak up and condemn sinful behavior, that we tacitly accept ‘atheists’ point of view because of our interpreted silence.
The self-professed ‘true’ Christians here log on to T-Nation surrounded by this stuff daily, and yet none of them chimed in the most recent Atomic Dog to chastise TC for not being a ‘true’ Christian. Nor do they act with the kind of consistency they demand in this thread - but they profess a standard that any ‘true’ Christian must speak out whenever confronted with inquity.
Even our proud ‘true’ Christians don’t live up to the standards they stridently condemn the rest of us for - and I can’t think of a worse example of Christian behavior.[/quote]
Amen.
I can honestly say, if growing up, I had been only exposed to the mentalities expressed by some of the “True Christians” on this site, I would have probably turned away from religion altogether. Thank GOD I was raised by people who actually understood the deeper message. I am a tad sick of being looked down upon by supposed “True Christians” who claim they know my own relationship with God and consider it subpar.
I can only hope that if there are others reading this who actually are interested, that they don’t base their opinions on the attitudes expressed here in this thread. Christianity isn’t about superiority over “Christians who some consider not Christian enough” and non-believers. It is about getting closer to an energy that we believe binds every single one of us regardless of what you’ve done in the past.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Isn’t Pookie from the sport of Curling?[/quote]
No, it’s from full-contact chess.
I can’t believe I’m quoting scripture, what is the world coming to!!!
So, who would like to take a stab at reconciling the following with the fundamentalist views presented earlier in this thread?
Luke 10:25[i]
And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.[/i]
Also, it would appear that children, who have obviously never even learned to read, much less had an opportunity to read anything approaching a bible, will be received:
Luke 18:15[i]
And they brought unto him also infants, that he would touch them: but when his disciples saw it, they rebuked them.
But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
[/i]
And again, in Luke, we see Jesus telling people how to comport themselves for an eternal afterlife:
Luke 18:18[i]
And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.
And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.
Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich.
And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle’s eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
[/i]
Alternately, here we have James dealing with the need for works as well as faith. Basically, faith is not enough on it’s own. This doesn’t seem to sit well with fundamentalist posts above either.
James 2:10[i]
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.[/i]
Here we have Jesus talking about the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. How could little children even have enough religious knowledge to qualify according to the rules of the fundamentalists?
Matthew[i]
At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?
And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
[/i]
So, with all that said, I would like to see a fundamentalist explain to me why living a righteous life, following the commandments, and loving your neighbor is not enough.
Jesus himself apparently said it was. If you wish to claim Jesus was mistaken, I would suggest that the bible certainly contains inconsistencies.
I think you had best hope so…
It is very interesting to note that the only individuals who were offended by the term “true Christian” are:
1)Vulgar in their speech and attitude.
2)Never seen on the threads taking a strong moral stand (to my knowledge at least). In fact, they all seem to be among the most liberal individuals in the forum (from what they have posted)
3)Selective in their acceptance of scripture. They quote one or two verses but refuse to acknowledge the rest of the Holy Book.
Somehow this group of individuals flocked to the thread with vengeance. I guess if I had to offend anyone, I’ve offended the right group.
As always, if I’ve done something unbiblical, please let me know. And, please provide scripture as evidence (please keep it in context).
Thanks 
[quote]harris447 wrote:
Oh, wait…I just went an entire post without using “bad” language.[/quote]
It is a miracle! Hallelujah! See - God is working in this thread!
[quote]It is very interesting to note that the only individuals who were offended by the term “true Christian” are:
[/quote]
Probably those that recognize your statements as exclusionary and divisive while implying you are blessed with some special ability to see into the hearts and minds of men.
Whatever you are, it is not humble.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
harris447 wrote:
ZEB wrote:
harris447 wrote:
Well, I learned everything I know about meaningless posts and hateful vendettas from your award-winning “Why I hate homos” threads.
Gee, I never said I hated homosexuals. But I have stated that I did not agree with what they do.
Did you go and get all confused again?
You have got to pay better attention my hate filled friend.
No, you merely stated that what they do was wrong and they were going to hell and should be converted forcibly to good little pussy-fuckers.
Everytime you open your mouth, you make more people dislike you. Keep talking.
Well, my very confused friend. I never said that anyone should be converted “forcibly.” You continue to make things up as you go along. Not a very positive trait, but one I have learned to expect from you. Also, you had the opportunity to debate your side of the facts on the various gay threads and you were MIA except for the occasional “drive by” hate post.
You added nothing to that debate and you add nothing to this one.
Also, It’s not really my goal to try to get everyone to like me. If that were my goal I would never take a controversial postion. And I have taken many of them. And if it IS your goal to get people to like you…well you’re failing! You might not know this but YOU are known as the most negative person on T-Nation!
Congrats…if that’s what you were shooting for, you did it!
As I have posted previously, there will always be much controversy that surrounds Christian debtate. The Bible is in fact a controversial document. Remember the “lead character” in the New Testament was in fact killed for his words and deeds.
While everyone can “join,” not everyone will. Just like everyone CAN get into shape, but few ever do. Hence, there will be people who don’t want to be reminded of their ultimate fate. Does that mean that I am supposed to remain silent? No, actually it means the opposite!
I will no more remain silent when the subject of homosexuality or abortion comes up than I would remain silent if someone wanted to know why he can lose weight. When you can help…you help. That might be a strange concept to someone like yourself, but try to get your arms around it.
There really is a right and wrong way to do just about everything! Those “all encompassing” religions are about as worthless when it comes to your eternal salvation as a diet of all Big Macs is to your waistline. But one thing for sure when you don’t remind either of their ultimate fate you will not be controversial. But who have you helped?
There is a right and wrong way to approach just about everything.
That you are hostile toward Christians not only does not surprise me, but does not dissuade me one iota from continuing on in debate over a multitude of subjects.
In fact, if everyone (such as yourself) stood up and applauded me, then I would know that I was on the wrong side!
You can keep up your hate mongering all you want, it’s useless, but I suspect eventually (more maturity) you will find that out. I have debated far nastier dudes than you face to face and continued to speak my mind. In fact all your hate filled posts do is encourage me!
I will continue to do and say what I think is correct to help as many people as I can, both physcially and spiritually.
We will occasionally cross paths as we have. No big deal, it’s a very large forum.[/quote]
Zeb,
Great post!
Couldn’t have said it better myself!
[quote]terribleivan wrote:
As always, if I’ve done something unbiblical, please let me know. And, please provide scripture as evidence (please keep it in context).
Thanks :)[/quote]
unbiblical…perhaps…
have you acted like a complete fucking dick…without a doubt!
[quote]harris447 wrote:
DPH wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
True Christians will follow Christ.
this statement seems ambiguous…
are you saying that accepting Jesus as your lord and savior is not enough to be a Christian?
a ‘true’ Christian doesn’t ever ‘mess up’ after accepting Jesus?
a ‘true’ Christian must also be as ‘Christ’ like as possible?
It’s not that it’s ambiguous, it’s that the statement is: A) a tautology; B) an example of the ‘True Scotsman’ fallacy; and, C) a faulty comparison. To wit–
A) “True Christians follow Christ” is a self-referential statement, otherwise known as a tautology. Other examples are “Boys will be boys”, and “I am what I am.” As these statements mean nothing without previous knowledge of the subject, they are essentially meaningless.
B) The true Scotsman fallacy goes as follows:
“All true Scotsman play golf.”
“But, what about Shamus? He’s from Scotland and he doesn’t golf.”
“Ah, then he must not be a true Scotsman.”
So, you see, this is a way to limit the range of the subject by applying a bullshit modifier that can be defined at will by the party making the argument.
C) Faulty comparison
This is one I scream at my students for. In the sentence written by Little Steve, true Christian, follow Christ the person. To the movies, the mall, etc. What Little Steve intended was "True Christians follow Christ’s [i] teachings[i].
So, students, we see that Steve has shown himself to be a self-righteous schmuck three times in four words.
[/quote]
Harris,
The tenor of your posts, the language you choose to use, and your ignorance of facts, concern me given the fact that you are supposedly teaching children.
That being said, the word “Christian” if you break it down, does, in fact, mean “follower of Messiah,” which in turn then means that one who calls himself “Christian” will follow the Messiah – i.e. Christ. See?
Now perhaps you will come back with something useful and intelligent – but I am not holding my breath!
Here are the words of Christ that you should really consider:
[b][i]
“?A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. ?But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. ?For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.” Matthew 12:35-37
[/b][/i]
I’m still waiting for a fundie to enlighten me as to why Jesus didn’t know what he was talking about…
Anyone?
[quote]Professor X wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
The problem you have, dear Prof. X, is that if you don’t believe in the Word of God – the Living Word, Jesus Christ, and haven’t asked him to be your personal Savior from sin, YOU have the problem, not me. Eternity awaits – read your Bible!
Believe it or not, I don’t want you to spend eternity regretting your unbelief – come to Jesus!
Take care…
What are you talking about? Why would you write that I don’t believe in the word of God? Because I don’t like how YOU are approaching the issue? You have made huge assumptions here about my own relationship with God and you have no right to do so. My father was a preacher. I was baptised before I could walk. Who are you to judge me this falsely?
You are one arrogant little twirp and I will forever call you on it as long as you act this way. Your post here shows how backwards you really are. It is not your duty to go around judging people unworthy of God or to assume who believes in God and who doesn’t, especially when I have written several times that I do believe in God.
YOU are not God. I don’t have to like you to love God. Keep your judgements and false accusations to yourself.
You haven’t acted in any way that would make someone else consider being just like you. You need to take one long hard look in the mirror before you point fingers at anyone else. You are nowhere near as “clean” as you apparently think you are.
[/quote]
Here are the words of our Lord:
[b][i]
“?A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. ?But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. ?For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.” Matthew 12:35-37
[/b][/i]
I am not your judge, but Christ is. He has clearly given in His Word what a true believer acts like and speaks like. Unfortunately, you are not currently producing “good fruit,” at least judging by your words. Notice that Christ is dealing with a person’s heart by the words that they speak.
Again, so you are very clear on this Prof., and will not misquote or twist my words – I am not God, nor would I ever pretend to be. But I love the Lord and have a desire to see others saved from the fires of Hell.
Jesus has given His Word and His Word does all the judging that we will ever need.
So call me names all you want – I care not! But if I were you, I would consider my eternal destiny in light of God’s written Word.
Here the Word of God again:
[b][i]
“?Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?” 2 Corinthians 13:5
“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. ?Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? ?And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:21-23 [/b][/i]
[quote]terribleivan wrote:
vroom wrote:
terribleivan wrote:
To put this in context in the thread - I see false Christians who spew forth perversion like a fountain. I’ll focus on the acts of one individual, without naming names of course.
This individual uses constant cursing and abusive language to get his point accross. He can be seen on threads telling homosexuals that it is OK to have gay sex, making perverted jokes, and joining in the blaspheming of Jesus Christ. I have never heard this individual speak the Gospel of Salvation even once. Yet, this individual is quick to tell Christians to shut the **** up.
This individual is a fraud. Behavior like that mentioned above shows that he in no may accepts the Bible as God’s word or as his governing authority. He can not show anyone the path to God because he does not know it. He has placed a wall of pride between himself and God, and until he allows that wall to come down, he will always remain a false-Christian and a hypocrite.
I hope this distinction helps. I am no better than anyone else here. And, I am no worse. In God’s eyes, my greatest works are still but filthy rags - just like everyone else’s.
Heh, even without names, I know I am most vociferous in this regard, so I suspect it could be me… so I’ll come back for a response (but I really am trying to get the hell out of these crappy threads).
I
True Christians accept the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ as payment for our sins. We do not add requirements to this, and we do not take requirements from this.
So, there are NO OTHER REQUIREMENTS right?
II
Christianity is not synonomous with perfection. Christians and non-Christians (or false Christians) alike sin. However, true Christians differ in that they make a good faith attempt to avoid the sin nature. Why is this? Because Christ lives in the true Christian, and with Christ in you, it grieves your soul to act in such an ill-found manner.
I see a lot of self-proclaimed true Christians exhibiting far to much pride, far too much judgment and insulting those that do not share their beliefs.
Is it fair for me to assume then that these people are not true Christians?
Guess what, faith in Christ does not equate to faith that the Bible is a perfect rendition (especially since it was written by men) of God’s will.
This individual is a fraud. Behavior like that mentioned above shows that he in no may accepts the Bible as God’s word or as his governing authority.
Wait, what happened to only one requirement? Either there is only one requirement or there are more. Are the additional requirements false requirements put in place by the likes of yourself to distinguish “true” Christians from other Christians?
Again, I see self-aggrandization and pride being used to judge oneself as more pious than another because of external behaviors. Do so at your own peril…
There is either ONE requirement or there are OTHER requirements. It sounds like you can’t make up your mind which it is.
It is very easy to accept the ONE requirement without wanting to put up with the self-righteous prattle of unthinking fools such as yourself who attempt to judge and coerce the behavior of others based on your own beliefs.
You missed the point yet again.
One requirement with lots of proof. It’s pretty hard to be one with Christ without the proof.
Let’s review the requirement:
Accept the death, burial, and resurection of Jesus Christ as payment for all my sins - past, present and future. If you do this, Christ comes to live in you and you become a new creature (spiritually).
The proof follows. Without the proof, your acceptance is likly false.
Hope this helps
[/quote]
Just to “piggyback” on Ivan’s correct statements here, I would underscore the following:
While the only requirement to be a true Christian (which is a born-again Christian) is to have accepted the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ on the cross as payment for your personal sin, and that you have asked Jesus to save you personally. If you do this with a pure heart – Jesus will come to dwell in you through the Holy Spirit of God.
Now, while there is no other requirement to be saved, when a person is saved he or she will show evidence of the “new creation” that has began in his or her life by what the Bible calls the “fruit of the Spirit.”
Although the evidence of salvation is not a “requirment” of salvation, it is a manifestation of salvation that will be present every time true salvation takes place.
[quote]vroom wrote:
Does your wife visit the sex forum with you?
What a fool you are.
[/quote]
Vroom – calling names again? Tisk tisk…
Vroom, assuming another motives again? Tisk tisk…
Vroom, judging others again? Tisk tisk…
Vroom, misrepresenting another’s position again? Tisk tisk…
His point was that someone who claims to be a true Christian, should know that the Bible is clear on staying away from “all apperance of evil,” and the dangers of the “lust of the flesh.” He was pointing out Prof. X’s inconsistency!
[quote]
I am sure all of your many obvious failings must really weigh on your soul ivan, but to try to make yourself feel better by finding failings in others is the wrong road.
There is one requirement, by your own words, the rest is just a way to allow you to feel pride for your devoutness.
You are lost.[/quote]
Vroom, assuming motives, calling names, judging others…
…wait, haven’t you written over and over again against such things. Again, I point out to you Vroom you are not consistent with your words and your actions. You should practice what YOU PREACH.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
terribleivan wrote:
Professor X wrote:
terribleivan wrote:
Professor X wrote:
terribleivan wrote:
20 pages, huh? Do you hang out in the sex forum often?
Hang out? I visit that forum like I visit most forums on this site. Is sex somehow off limits to “True Christians”?
Does your wife visit the sex forum with you? Do you take your kids along for the ride? Just curious.
I’m not married and I have no kids. What is your point here?
I am please to hear you are not married and don’t have kids.
Tell me prof, does the Bible say anything about the lust of the flesh? As a Christian, you should know this forward and backward.
What does me reading a sex forum have to do with lust of the flesh?
[/quote]
You are kidding with this question, right? I mean, we don’t have to explain this to you…do we?..
[quote]
Why are you so desperate to judge me? You are not God. Why do you try to be?[/quote]
He is not and I am not – God is your judge. Fortunately, He has given us His Word. You should read it sometime…
[quote]DPH wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
Therefore, when we see a person who rejects the Bible, uses 4-letter words against Bible-believing Christians, advances Evolution over the Genesis account, and thus rejects the literal truth of God’s Word – we can suspect that that person (if he or she claims to be “Christian”) has not been born-again (i.e. is a true Christian) as the Bible says.
to be saved all someone has to do is accept Jesus as their lord and savior…
ACTS (other than accepting Jesus) has NOTHING to do with whether someone is to be saved or not…
you can suspect anything you want, you’re nothing more than a feeble human who has no right to pass judgement on an individuals acts to determine if they are indeed a Christian or not…that is for Jesus, and Jesus only to decide…
your opinions mean jack shit…[/quote]
Not my “opinions” bro, but God’s Words. Read them for yourself. I also answered this question already, so please read the Biblical answers before you write before you know what you are talking about.
[quote]DPH wrote:
terribleivan wrote:
As always, if I’ve done something unbiblical, please let me know. And, please provide scripture as evidence (please keep it in context).
Thanks
unbiblical…perhaps…
have you acted like a complete fucking dick…without a doubt![/quote]
What I want to know is if they actually think they are preaching to or converting anyone by acting the way they are.
[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
DPH wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
Therefore, when we see a person who rejects the Bible, uses 4-letter words against Bible-believing Christians, advances Evolution over the Genesis account, and thus rejects the literal truth of God’s Word – we can suspect that that person (if he or she claims to be “Christian”) has not been born-again (i.e. is a true Christian) as the Bible says.
to be saved all someone has to do is accept Jesus as their lord and savior…
ACTS (other than accepting Jesus) has NOTHING to do with whether someone is to be saved or not…
you can suspect anything you want, you’re nothing more than a feeble human who has no right to pass judgement on an individuals acts to determine if they are indeed a Christian or not…that is for Jesus, and Jesus only to decide…
your opinions mean jack shit…
Not my “opinions” bro, but God’s Words. Read them for yourself. I also answered this question already, so please read the Biblical answers before you write before you know what you are talking about. [/quote]
so have you seen whether my name has been written in the book of life or not?
hmmmmm…no you haven’t…so YOU don’t know by my acts whether I have been saved or not…
you may suspect all you want…but since you don’t know and you’re not Jesus your opinion mean jack shit…
[quote]DPH wrote:
ZEB wrote:
DPH wrote:
ZEB,
I like you and think you’ve made many great contributions to threads on this site…
I know we agree on numerous issues and don’t see eye to eye on many others…
no big deal…
but, it is not your decision, steveo’s, terribleivan’s, or anyone’s but Jesus to decide whether or not I am to be saved…
don’t claim otherwise…
HUH?
I never stated that it was my decision who is saved and who is not.
Please don’t confuse this issue anymore than it is.
the issue seems to be (I may be mistaken) that I’m supposedly not a Christian because I fall (very) short of Christian ideals…
you, steveo, terribleivan, et all can claim that I’m a crappy person…hell, I wouldn’t even argue that point…but to claim I’m not a Christian because I fall short of what Christian behavior should be like in your eyes is B.S…
my apologies if I have misinterpreted your statements…[/quote]
DPH,
This is not my position at all, so I apologize if that is how it came off.
My position is that a person who is truly saved will exhibit the “fruit of the spirit,” which is, according to Galations 5: Love, joy, peace, patience, gentleness, goodness, and faith.
The Bible also says in Galations 5 what the “works of the flesh” are:
“envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”
Now, if one had to be “perfect” in exhibiting the fruit of the spirit to be a true Christian, nobody would be a true Chrisitan. However, what I am saying is that in a true believing life, this fruit will characterize more of the person’s life, while the works of the flesh will be diminishing.
In my own life it has worked like this: Before I was saved, I could sin and not feel so bad about it and continue on. After I was saved, when I sin, I cannot get away from God, who acting within me, points his finger at my sin and prods me to make it right, confess it and forsake it. That is the difference, and all true Christians will experience this change – some more intensely than others.
Hopefully this clarifies my position, which is really not mine, but God’s position as given in His Word.