Potential Cruise Dose (updated)

Pharma / TRT
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As my doctor should be letting go of frequent blood tests soon (or I may be letting go of the doctor), I believe it is around time I legitimately think about what I want to do with my treatment with regards to anabolic steroids. I am on TRT. my natural testosterone level was 1052ng/dl, before dropping to the mid 200’s. the cause of my hypogonadism is primary (elevated LH and FSH even on test), possibly caused by testicular trauma. My plan is to take 200mgs of test C per week (100mg e3.5 days), accompanied by 100mg nandrolone weekly (50mg e3.5 days), however I may start with NPP at an equal or higher dose to see how I respond to nandrolone

The nandrolone isn’t a permanent thing, I’m well aware of the cardiac complications that nandrolone will likely cause, however I suffer from what I would call nagging, sometimes fairly severe, irritating joint pain at and I am curious to see if it helps as I would rather chronic nandrolone administration than a lifetime of pain medication. if the nandrolone truly does help, I will consider running it permanently, as I believe a shortened lifespan with a better quality of life is better than a lifetime of pain.
I am aware 300mgs weekly is bloody high for a cruise dose, I could drop my T dosage and do a 50/50 split of test/deca (100/100) however my goal is to get my TT back up to where it used to be.

I can exercise despite my joint pain, I lift weights (not more than 75% on 1rm though, and I tend to focus on contracting muscles and getting a pump and I use damn near perfect form.) I partake in cardiovascular exercise via running, swimming and ellipticals a few times per week. I am hoping to gain some of my muscle mass back that I’ve lost (6-8kg) due to prolonged hypogonadism.

I believe I can get away with this cruise without an AI as my E2 has been at undetectable levels ever since I’ve been on and stopped using Arimidex at 1mg daily for two years to stop premature closure of my growth plates, this includes my recent TRT blood tests, all but one test had my E2 below detectable levels. My cholesterol is good, HDL, LDL ratio is 2.7, my blood pressure is in hypotensive ranges 90/60, sometimes lower (I take a blood pressure lowering medication for anxiety and it causes hypotension). The only issue is my haematocrit, which naturally hovers around 50 percent and my RBC count is high, I will be getting blood drawn regularly (as in say a pint every ten week or so) and I take a baby aspirin every day. I will obviously have caber on hand. My diet is pretty good because it must be, I get an upset stomach when I eat sugary foods therefore I tend to stay away from sweet/sugary food (I also have mild fructose intolerance). Furthermore, I don’t use drugs (rarely drink and when I do, I don’t get drunk

I’m going to update when I begin said cruise soooooooo let’s say this thread might be randomly bumped in the next 6-12weeks by my update. I’d use hcg but both my parents had fertility issues and I have what appears to be primary hypogonadism as my LH and FSH are elevated despite being on TRT for six months therefore I somehow doubt there is any fertility to save, which is a mildly depressing thing to figure out at my age but you gotta deal with the cards life deals you, even when some of them are really shitty cards.

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You’re a very intelligent young man in a tough situation. I like that your plans revolve around quality of life and health and not to be “swole”. I wish I could treat you personally! At the dosages you suggested you won’t need an AI. You could def run those dosages of test and deca long term. Best of luck to you and keep checking in regularly! Your knowledge is very helpful to people here.

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If you wanna KISS your cruise, you may be able to get away with one weekly pin of 200mg test c and 50mg deca (I believe 50mg is a recommended dose for joint pain) and that ought to keep you in a 900-1100 ng/dl range (test to confirm about 4 weeks in as the half-life is longer on the 6th day before your 5th shot).

250mg test e once weekly keeps me above 1000. I don’t see many ups/downs that significantly change mood as I would on a 100mg x2 dose; it stays pretty constant in that aspect.

Whether I pin 125mg test e or 500mg test e weekly, I still need an AI for skin and blood pressure issues, even at low body fat.

At any rate, I’d judge the AI and pinning by how you feel and not by the numbers on your test. Though, I do feel 200mg test c/50mg deca would be sufficient enough for your purpose.

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Thank you @physioLojik and @baka for the replies, I appreciate it. As to the KISS idea for my cruise/modified trt (although deca isn’t trt therefore I shall label it a cruise). If I inject 200mg once weekly the peaks will be higher and the nadirs will be lower, I would prefer to keep my testosterone levels at a steady state, I’d take test undecanoate at 200-250mg weekly however I can’t due to the fact that my doctor may be wanting blood tests and test U takes forever to clear the system.

As for the AI, I seem to barely aromatise, whether this was due to chronic, high dose AI treatment when I was in my early teens or genetics I don’t know, my E2 is typically below detectable levels even on TRT, my blood pressure is 90/60 therefore I’m not too concerned about androgen related increases in blood pressure, if my blood pressure raises into pre hypertensive stages I’ll worry about it however I will def minister my blood pressure rigorously as it’s extremely important (isn’t called the silent killer for no reason).

As to the dose of nandrolone, 50mg sounds very low however you I believe the dose that helps is probably individualistic and I believe that when it comes to a synthetic hormone like nandrolone, the lowest dose possible I can sustain myself on is probably the best dose in terms of longevity and me not dropping dead at a young age (which could happen anyway, you never know, maybe I’ll get run over by a bus tommorow, that’s what’s so scary about life, you never know when it’ll come to an end, and I don’t believe in an afterlife or a higher power, therefore the idea of death scares me… it’s probably best not to overthink it).

I’m going to likely start with nandrolone phenylpropionate at 15mg per day just to see how I react to nandrolone, if I get terrible sides I can stop and it’s out of my system faster than nandrolone decanoate would. Depending on whether I get relief depends on whether I increase or decrease the dosage. If it doesn’t work I’ll keep increasing the dosage to an absolute maximum of 150-200mg weekly (however I’d never run such a dose long term), if 70-100mg works well I’ll decrease the dose over time to find the minimum dose that works for me, I’ll also probably stay on NPP until my bloods are far enough apart that nandrolone decanoate can be used for periods of time long enough to warrant using.

Usually I hear people using around 100mg weekly for joints, however maybe 50mg would work, if it does I’d certainly rather stick with that then a higher dose. As to the test I couuuulllllld get pharm grade test E, buuuuuuutttttttt pharm grade test E here is very expensive and comes in pre filled syringes with 19 gauge needles and I’d rather not stick myself with that. I’ll also probs start the cruise with test suspension (oil based) at 10mg twice daily given that it’s very fast to clear the system and I have a vial of it that magically flew into my hands during a dust storm that will otherwise never be used. 20mg of test suspension daily is roughly the equiv of 200mg cyp weekly.

I was considering the use of an oral anabolic for 4 ish weeks to help me gain back some of my lost muscle mass but I think I’ve decided against it because I believe that getting my testosterone levels back to where they used to be will hopefully help me regain my lost muscle mass/vigor and strength and I don’t see any therapeutic value in orals for me as my SHBG isn’t high and I also don’t see any legitimate reason for me to put myself under the risk of additional health problems (liver, cholesterol etc), so unless there’s a therapeutic effect from an oral anabolic I’m not aware of that idea is out the window for now, maybe when I graduate I’ll think about it again… but probably not.

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I was just about to edit my post to reflect this as it’s basically a TRT dose stacked with another steroid, much like I did with 125mg test e + 100mg primo.

While this is true, I think it’d be negligible, feeling wise. I’d peak/trough on 125mg and I could feel the ups and downs, but it beat buying two vials of 125mg to split doses. Since starting to cruise on 250mg, the dose is just so much that I can’t feel when I’m up or down, because I’m always “up” if that makes sense.

Lucky you. I had low blood pressure, in that I could faint by standing up too quickly sometimes, prior to TRT / AAS. Now I’m right on the line of 140/90 which is high for me.

This is one AAS I was interested in getting a script for before I knew there were only 2, to include testosterone, for. You might want to Google “50mg deca for joint pain” or “lowest possible dose of deca for joint pain” and you’ll find instances of people running as low as 30mg-50mg, which makes it almost an indefinite run, for as long as it’s doing its job. There’s no need to run 100mg if 50 or even 30 can do the job. I’d research those doses more and up the dose as necessary as it can’t harm you starting out with less.

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Interesting note about the blood pressure, i’ve actually also fallen over from standing up too quickly, I believe it’s a common side effect of hypotension. I’m going to start with 10mg of NPP daily so 70mg weekly as I can draw .10 ml into a syringe but I believe I would have trouble drawing .7142857mg precisely into a syringe (I have 1ml syringes that measure every .1 ml, when I switch to nandrolone decanoate I’ll run around 50mg weekly if the NPP works, if nandrolone doesn’t help my joint pain I’ll just drop it all together. The lower dose I can get away with with nandrolone the better.

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Start adding more sodium in your diet from Celtic sea salt. Perhaps 1/4 teaspoon into four glasses of water a day to begin with. Sounds like low blood volume and could also help your hypotension.

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Will do, some NPP and test cyp will be falling out of the sky and into my hands in the very very near future, perhaps the next two or three days, will start using on the 8th of May, will update on whether it helps then, probably didn’t need the extra test considering I have a vial of test suspension, a vial of test p and a vial of t450 (figured it’d be cost effective but didn’t think about the fact it had test prop in it so would also require frequent pins :/) but test cyp I need to pin less frequently so I can justify that puchas… I mean thunderstorm that is going to hit this area where some vials of test/NPP will be blown in by the ferocious winds or something.

Also @baka I’m curious about what you said your cruise was, what was the purpose of running 100mg primo? Was it for aestheticall reasons or does primobolan have some therapeutic benefit? I’m aware it apparently strengthens the immune system for aids patients, however I’m not sure if that’s bro science or not, I haven’t looked at much literature on primo considering it’s not a compound I’m interested in, although I do have access to pharm grade primo I don’t have any reason to use it therefore I’m not going to get it or use it.

Also I’ve heard some take low doses of DHEA to fill hormonal pathways that may be shut down by trt such as androstenedione etc. this isn’t recommended is it? Considering DHEA is produced by the adrenal glands I would assume trt wouldn’t shut down the production of it, with DHEA being produced androstenedione and androstenediol could still be produced or am I wrong and DHEA and the other hormones will stop being produced as it converts to testosterone, therefore with synthetic test in my body my body doesn’t need these other hormones? I need to do more research I guess, but I don’t really have the time as I am studying really hard (want to go into biomedical science, get a degree and then go into medicine or if my grades are good enough hopefully I can go straight into medicine, good grades are PIVOTAL!)

I have a few bottles of 1-androsterone (1-DHEA) as last time I went to America (I go back regularly to visit family and friends) I saw it over the counter and was like “cool” and then a blizzard hit and the stuff flew out of the store and into my hands (I was on trt at the time), I’m probably never going to even use the stuff, thinking back I don’t even know why I purc- picked it up out of the snowdrifts. It’s probably a BS supplement, however I believe it converts to 1-androstenedione 1-androstenediol and from there it converts at a super negligible rate to dihydroboldenone (5-ar reduced EQ). There’s a small study on it where people used it for 4 weeks, gained roughly 5kg of LBM and wrecked their lipid profile at the same time. I don’t even know why I’m putting this in here, I guess I’m bored. I live on a farm, maybe I’ll give some to a chicken and have a really buff chicken running around assaulting all the other chickens (just kidding) or I’ll just throw it out as I doubt it’s safe to use, most, if not all PHS and designer steroids aren’t.

Another thing I’m curious about is whether 200mg of test per week is still trt or whether it’s a cruise/light cycle, doesn’t bother me either way, I want my old numbers back and I believe it would take around 200mg weekly five or take 25mgs to achieve that goal as I was over 1000ng/dl. Would say 150 mg weekly be a safer/better starting dose for the test, is 150mg Pw enough to get someone to say 1052ng/dl? I have no problems using 200mg weekly however I’m not sure if that’s going to take me over where I need to be as I don’t feel comfortable going over 1322ng/dl (1300 would be a really good number tho

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Just for the sake of accuracy, NPP does not clear nearly as quickly as broscience claims.

It hits its peak around day four (it’s basically a straight upward trajectory from injection to day four), and by day 16 it’s at about half the concentration in the blood.

One IM injection of 100mg/ml into the gluteal yields ~800ng/dL of nandrolone in the blood. For reference, the same amount of deca never reaches that level of blood concentration. It peaks at ~400ng/dL. I guess I’m saying you don’t have to pin it every day. Save yourself the (literal) pain in the ass and pin less frequently.

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Not entirely true, if we look at the pharmokinetics of nandrolone phenylprionate via a single 4ml injection into the gluteal region (owch), it seems as it the product is active for around seven days, however the half life seems significantly longer than I thought it was, therefore I thank you for bringing this information to light, I believe I can probably get away with pinning every 3-3.5 days

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However NPP peaks quickly

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I decided on 500mg test e / 200mg primo IM / 700mg primo oral (non hepatoxic) on a blast stacked with another strength kick starter and 250mg test e + 100mg primo on my cruise.

I went with primo because two reasons, one of which you covered: the immune benefits – it’s like vitamin C on steroids (though HIV- / not AIDS here). I’ve yet to get deathly sick over the past two years doing this, but, I have had bronchitis once or twice, most likely cause the humidity here. With that said, I don’t suffer from fever, etc. while that passes, rather a mild “smoker’s cough” with some nasty phlegm for a week. Another reason why I like it is it recycles protein in the body more efficiently within the body. And lastly, what caught my eye is collagen synthesis. This is totally broscience here as I can’t find anything definitive to support this claim, but testosterone at doses of 200mg+ can reduce collagen synthesis, while primo can increase it by 180%. Now skin isn’t of importance here, but I’d rather not have a torn ligament (probably overreacting, but, it works).

Most male vitality clinics will start you off at 200mg test c, while more knowledgeable Endocrinology departments may work with you on 100mg to get you within ranges. With that said, I’d venture to say it’s a TRT dose.

Again, you’re wrapped up in numbers. I went to your OP to see how old you were when you were within that range to now, but, testosterone drops with age. A number like 1000 is fairly high for TRT, some patients feel great at 600, 700, 800. How do you feel at lower numbers? I don’t think you could honestly tell the difference between 800 and 1000, but still reap all the benefits of treatment, even at the lower of the two.

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The thing is, I’m currently 17 (veeeeeeeeery young, I just don’t like stating it due to the judgement I will likely get if I state my age), between the ages of 14 and 16 my test dropped from 1052ng/dl to 250 (was in the 200’s for nearly a year before I was put on), I have been at 400 and 500ng/dl, it doesn’t cut it, I don’t feel like my old self at those levels. When I take a shot of sustanon I feel great for about five days, and then I start to crash, I hypothesize I would probably feel best in the 800-1100 range. 800 is a solid number I’d be alright with, I’d even settle for 750 I’m guessing a dose of 125-150mgs per week would be able to give me to a state where I have energy again. I’ve ordered some test C, I’ll start at 125mgs weekly and see how that goes, I’ll front load with 250mg on the first injection though to get my levels up faster. I’m wrapped up in higher numbers because I’ve lost a loooooooot of muscle mass, strength and function from prolonged hypogonadism and I thought a higher number might help me regain some of my lost muscle mass, however I am aware there are more important things, such as my long term health, that need to be considered. Seven-eight days after a 250mg shot of sustanon I am at 500ng/dl, however I guess that is to be expected considering sustanon is primarily short acting testosterone. If you are interested in collagen synthesis from AAS, there is some data suggesting nandrolone, stanozolol and oxandrolone promote collagen synthesis, however what matters is the type of collagen that is synthesized and whether that collagen is deposited in heart tissue (because excess collagen deposition in the heart is not good). The problem with my endocrinologist is she/he doesn’t like injectables, says they produce peaks that are too high and nadirs too low, and I’m thinking “thats because you prescribe one shot every three weeks, prescribe in a normal, non australian dosing regiment and that wouldn’t be an issue”, she/he seems to think a level between 400-500 is a perfectly acceptable level for a man, I beg to differ. She/hewants to put me on a compounded testosterone cream, my issue with transdermals are the fact that I’m not sure if I absorb them well, I don’t want to have to put on a gel and wait 3-6 hours before I can exercise or sweat, i’m not going to completely change my lifestyle for my testosterone levels to normalize, it’s like I’m being punished for the fact that my testicles don’t work. Then there’s picking up testosterone from the pharmacy, when a kid goes up to the counter to pick up test, you get funny looks, I’ve been questioned as to whether i really needed it and I have to say (in a public room) “I have low testosterone, can’t get an erection, no energy etc.” It’s bullshit and it’s humiliating, due to the incompetence of doctors here and the fact that I legitimately believe I semi know what I’m doing I would rather go UGL for the time being.

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You sound very knowledgeable on different compounds and obviously done some research into this. I’d just like to leave you with some advice.

  1. You ought to dial in your TRT before messing with anything else. Get to a good baseline that you feel good at, again, ignoring the numbers. Take a mental health approach at it, if a doctor gives you X mg of Prozac and you’re still depressed by week 4, he’ll up the dose to Y. Apply this to TRT and don’t let numbers cloud your way of thinking. A good resource is the TRT forum and advice from @KSman
  2. Slowly build back your mass locking in good diet and training practices. The gains will come whether you’re 500 (obviously not feeling up to par) or 800, otherwise 30-45 year old men would make absolutely no gains and feel like shit.
  3. Once you’re satisfied with your gains and your diet is good, up the ante and start lifting heavier by alleviating that joint pain, if that even your goal 6-9 months out after dialing this all in.
  4. If you get more serious in bodybuilding, toss in more compounds all the while researching them – I didn’t take my first prohormone for 3 months as it set on my desk before I was sure I was gonna make the leap.

After reading this it just sounds like you’re reaching for someone to give you encouragement to start it, but, I won’t give ya that. Though, I do feel as if you’re 17 and can serve in the Armed Forces (USA, with a waiver), you’re old enough to make the ultimate decision, but that decision will be on you and nobody else.

tl;dr: get TRT on lock, train, eat right, build mass, take to next level if that’s even your goal by then.

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Not asking for encouragement, it would be rather irresponsible of me and the adult if I asked for someone to encourage me to use AAS at age 17. That being said, I do believe getting dialed in is very important, if I can ever get my joint pain under control, I would like to be a competitive bodybuilder, it’s been a dream of mine since I was very, very young, however before I do anything drastic such as running a cycle I need to be absolutely sure it is what I want to do, as there is no point in say running a cycle, going “oh shit, looks like I don’t want to compete” and then I will have possibly done damage to myself for no reason if you know what I mean. For me to justify use of anabolic steroids in doses higher than physiologic levels I would have to be approaching bodybuilding or some other sport on a competitive level, specifically if I had to choose a division, It’d be classic division, it seems to be making a comeback and I think those guys look the best aesthetically (think calum von moger, frank zane etc). I def have the mindset to be a competitive bodybuilder, I lifted weights religiously with a high calorie diet (with nutrients calculated and all) religiously six days a week for a few years (started at 11 stopped at 14 due to joint pain likely caused by anastrazole)

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Sooooooo @physioLojik I have a queeesssssttttiiioooonnnnn that I was hoping you could answer for me, I was thinking about starting my trt dose on the more conservative side at 50-62.5mg twice weekly hoooowwwweeeeevvvvveerrrr I don’t want to ever drop below say 500-600ng/dl, as going by current bloods I tend to start to feel shitty once I drop below 600ng/dl, as in I feel a noticeable crash, energy drops, fatigue sets in etc. My question is, since you are a low T doc/endocrinologist, around what level do you commonly see guys on say 125mg weekly or so, I have no issues with starting at a higher dose, however I’d rather use the minimum dose possible to get me feeling good, both for cost effective reasons and because I don’t want to feel like I’m abusing testosterone as there is no justifiable reason for me to be using supraphysiologic doses of anything unless I’m going to compete (which will be a looong way away considering the events of the past few years. I’m not asking for a specific dose or guidelines on what to take, I’m asking generally what does 100mg bring one up to, what does 200mg do etc, is there really a difference between quality of life between the two, it will help me influence my own decision. I’ve gotten mixed responses, steroidcalc seems to show 50mg twice weekly to release around 10mgs of testosterone per day, I haven’t been able to figure out what that equates to however I believe the average adult males testis produce between say 5-12 mg of test per day, however I’ve seen conflicting data so therefore 100mg should be putting one at the top of the range, however based on blood work I’ve seen from people at that dose it doesn’t seem to usually be the case. The guy above me made a valid point about me not aiming for a number and going by symptoms, however I know for a fact I start to feel less than optimal once I dip below 600ng/dl, whether I’d feel the difference between 800 and 1000 I doubt it, both are solid numbers for long term treatment. I would appreciate your input, also if I go down the route of competitive bodybuilding (given my joints ever feel alright enough to do so, I reaaaalllly hope I can because I loved bodybuilding with a passion) is there an age requirement for competing in most leagues?

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Hey man, I didn’t do too bad considering I’m working off of memory :joy:

Anyway, good stuff. Always like reading your posts. Very thoughtful and thorough.

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Hey man. Unfortunately it’s impossible to give an answer to this. I have guys on 60 a week and guys on 560 a week (literally) and their numbers average about 700-900 total and high average free. Everyone metabolizes drugs differently. I think your best bet is always to start low and test after four weeks of treatment. Make extremely small changes. I know you’ve had a bitch of a time health wise man and kudos for staying positive and being your own advocate. Let me know if I can help any other way.

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Woah, 560mg per week, that can’t be without some underlying issue can it (like androgen insensitivity) or is it just hypermetabolism. I know I hyper metabolise medications that are metabolised through the Cyp2d6 enzyme due to genetic testing (and I reeeeeeaaaaallly hyper metabolise them). All I know so far related to trt are the following
transdermal test gets me to the following levels (24 hours post application)

5mg daily got me to upper 300’s-lower 400’s
10mg daily got me to 147ng/dl, I hypothesize the earlier doses had me at higher levels due to the following reasons (HTPA not being fully shut down, summertime hit, therefore I was sweating a lot as it gets really hot during the summer, like sometimes up to 110 degrees or higher, I found the gels to be a pain in the ass, having to apply every day only to wait 3-6 hours before being able to exercise or shower was irritating). I know from sustanon 250, seven days post injection (after 2 shots) had me at 500ng/dl, which seems slightly below what one should be at seven days post sustanon, I’m getting bloods now to see what I’m like at three days post shot (with some of the short esters still in my system), this will help me determine my starting dose.

Update: There was a tsunami and the excess water flowed through the farm, a vial of test cyp and NPP washed up onto my doorstep, WHAT LUCK! :slight_smile:

Out of curiosity, are there any other ways in terms of lowering hematocrit besides drawing blood, you see I am underage, therefore I am unable to donate blood and I’m also unable to get phlebotomies (I thought I was but apparently not, my endocrinologist thinks testosterone replacement shouldn’t increase hematocrit and if it does the change is pharmocological and is therefore unnacceptable as it isn’t restoring natural balance or some shit. I don’t really pay attention as I don’t agree with many things the doctor says, for someone who is supposed to be a specialist in andrology and trt she/he sure doesn’t seem to know how to properly dose trt, convert testosterone from nmol to ng/dl (told me 28 nmol is 1050ng/dl, no it isn’t that’s far off and said “I have a PHD in this, you don’t” when I tried to argue), my hematocrit is naturally 50 percent, and my RBC count is high, therefore TRT and NPP will increase my risk of a stroke. I take aspirin daily, I saw a study showing eating a grapefruit daily lowers hematocrit, is this true or is it BS, green tea helps in rats, however I am very skeptical about natural or homeopathic treatments for health conditions, is there any truth to the grapefruit thing? That being said I believe I was dehydrated both times I got my hematocrit checked.

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You’re over thinking the blood draw. I don’t know when you’ll turn 18, but you can most likely hold out until then if necessary. But with a little digging, I found this:

TRT patients should be excluded as donations are therapeutic. I don’t know if you just need a doctor’s note to donate at the Red Cross until 18 or if your hospital / clinic can take one.

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Yes I was very irritated about the minimum age being risen, you are right, I can definitely wait it out until I turn 18, it’s only roughly half a year off, I just tend to get paranoid about these things when I’m really bored and have nothing else to do as I think about potential complications and linger on them, the thought of stroking out and becoming a vegetable terrifies me, however given I’ve had a hematocrit of 50 percent + for about two years now I don’t think it’s going to do much harm, however donating blood would likely have therapeutic benefit for me. I could probably get a GP to refer me to the red cross for therapeutic donation, however my Hematocrit is 50%, not 55%+, my hemoglobin is upper mid range and my RBC count is high, however the referance ranges I was given are very low, Hematocrit for men tops out at 45 percent and the RBC count also tops out low, I believe my blood count results are on the upper range of normal if looked at through an adequate referance range. Most ref ranges will have hematocrit top out at around 52%.