There’s also been debate about casein vs whey vs CH regarding MPS, but this has already been hashed out several times here before so I don’t really want this thread to be about that. If we can keep this to just dietary fat that would be great. What I want to know about is how can dairy fat, or any other fat have a benefit to muscle protein synthesis. If you are educated in biochemistry or a related field or you have a knack for research, please let me know of any info on this idea (besides the link I posted). I’ve tried my hand at researching the matter today and didn’t come up with much Specifically what I want to know is if the fat has any effect besides making a slower release of amino acids into the blood stream that lead to the rise in MPS from whole milk as compared to skim milk seen in the study.
If it turns out that all fat does is slow the release of aminos then, most likely, having several pulses of Ch throughout the workout would do just that, and hence why there is a need for so much water in the anaconda protocol.
I know this goes against conventional bodybuilder wisdom, and it goes against the Anaconda Protocol to suggest fat can increase MPS, but if there is indeed a potential benefit from adding fat in some specific formula, besides just slowing absorption/digestion, perhaps the concept of post workout fat can be applied to traditional PWO protocols and or the Anaconda protocol.
I sometimes use coconut oil along with Grow! whey post workout on the theory that having the medium-chain fatty acids in the bloodstream as well as the amino acids from the protein-- as opposed to having only the latter – may be of benefit by keeping caloric intake at about maintenance at this timepoint instead of submaintenance.
I don’t use carbs at that time for that purpose for reasons given by CT and because of having consumed a lot of carbs preworkout or both pre and during, so the carb aspect is well taken care of.
The same principle might apply with fats in general. Just maybe not as elegantly as with the coconut oil.
I wonder if the presence of short and medium chain fatty acids found in whole milk has something to do with the increase MPS. Maybe the notion that [all] fats lower MPS is too general…
As someone who is looking to drop fat but only has access to the following for workout nutrition due to funds/many hours of studying… also training in evening.
P+C Recovery drink
Whey Concentrate
Creatine
What the hell can I do with this little lot?
1/2 serving recovery drink pre
1/2 serving recovery drink during
whey concentrate post?
CT’s research looks very promising but I’m not sure what to do if I can’t afford the Anaconda protocol!
[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
I sometimes use coconut oil along with Grow! whey post workout on the theory that having the medium-chain fatty acids in the bloodstream as well as the amino acids from the protein-- as opposed to having only the latter – may be of benefit by keeping caloric intake at about maintenance at this timepoint instead of submaintenance.
I don’t use carbs at that time for that purpose for reasons given by CT and because of having consumed a lot of carbs preworkout or both pre and during, so the carb aspect is well taken care of.
The same principle might apply with fats in general. Just maybe not as elegantly as with the coconut oil.[/quote]
I’m not sure that I buy into the theory that the increase in MPS is solely due to the bump in calories because the study I referenced shows that amino acid uptake was higher for Whole Milk (21 ± 6%) than Fat Free Milk (of equal volume) (11 ± 5%), as well as a Fat Free Milk that is equal in calories (12 ± 3%).
Obviously more research is needed though because of the fact that the margins of error are so wide and overlap, thus the results are potentially not relevant.
I didn’t mean to suggest that increase in calories caused the increase in ;ost-exercise muscle protein synthesis: actually I don’t consider the latter a reliable indicator of anything and never worry about it.
With regard to the personal coconut oil usage, it is just me thinking in terms of: I don’t want more carbs at that time, and protein-only would be rather short of ongoing energy consumption, while adding the coconut oil would provide fatty acids quickly available for energy, which cannot hurt in terms of longer term results and might help.
One interesting thought, suggested by DH on the Anabolic Diet threads. . . is that (assuming you’re a drug free lifter) your T-Levels are actually at their lowest post workout (until they recover about 8 hours to a day later), and given that dietary fat is good for T-levels, you are giving your body fat at a time when it needs it most (this applies only to saturdated and monosaturated fats).
I’m an A.D. guy, I’ve recently started experimenting with a table spoon of whipping cream and olive oil in my post workout drink, and in my bedtime protein drink (since ur Testes make testorone at night). I’m also stacking Alpha Male and Alpha GPC with this drink at night.
I’m hoping to create a hormonal environment to boost recovery.
[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
I didn’t mean to suggest that increase in calories caused the increase in ;ost-exercise muscle protein synthesis: actually I don’t consider the latter a reliable indicator of anything and never worry about it.
With regard to the personal coconut oil usage, it is just me thinking in terms of: I don’t want more carbs at that time, and protein-only would be rather short of ongoing energy consumption, while adding the coconut oil would provide fatty acids quickly available for energy, which cannot hurt in terms of longer term results and might help.
[/quote]
Can I just why you wouldn’t consume carbs after training?
Would this be whilst keeping daily carbs low and consuming them pre and during your workout?
It’s so funny how everything changes… as far as food timing goes as the years go on. It seems your better off just eating a lot all the time because who the F know what they will say five years from now.
DJS Protocol
-60 cafeine
-30 60 grams whey and 2 bananas
during workout… MRP shake or 2
post workout 60 grams whey and 2 tbs olive oil
There you go… dirt cheap… and has protein/carbs/fat. Just like… food.
It all comes down to food. Eat more food around your workout.
[quote]@ DJS[/quote]Are you really suggesting that since science is an evolving process, that we should stop dead in our tracks? Why not try to further it? You’re really pretty close (based on macros) to the Anaconda protocol. If science shows that MCTs will help, would you really not be willing to add them to your DJS protocol?
Not trying to be mean, I don’t think it really makes sense to go against the latest research if it also flies in the face of in the trenches knowledge as well. i.e. Science = new knowledge of post workout catecholamine effects on carb utilization + knowledge of fatty acids and testosterone etc; In-the-trenches = CT’s great results following the low carb post workout per his current protocol
Now, isn’t that what you wanted to hear? That you are very in tune with your body and all this science stuff is easy and intuitive for you?
[quote]At all[/quote] Maybe twice (or more) daily (short) workouts would be optimal like the following:
AM Session: Anaconda protocol in the morning (when the body does best with carbs)
PM Session: Anaconda protocol with less carbs (only one finibar or something like that) and MCTs/Extra Virgin Cocount Oil post workout (to optimize the body’s high test output and add some calories)
Perhaps add to that some shellfish or eggs to add cholesterol
[quote]DJS wrote:
It’s so funny how everything changes… as far as food timing goes as the years go on. It seems your better off just eating a lot all the time because who the F know what they will say five years from now.
[/quote]
It’s all trial and error, you gotta dig through this steaming pile of shit that the media gives us, and, see what’s good and what’s not.
It will slow the digestion of whey of course, but its worth a try to add some healthy fats. A colleague of mine is doing her thesis on, in a vague description, the benefits of coconut oil. In many aspects it kicks olive oil out of its way. One thing I like is that it burns off faster than most fats, its great for endomorphs.
as far as cooking, it holds better at high temps and doesnt break down with frying, totally flavorless unlike olive oil. and as you might know, its not liquid, at room temp, but it melts at 77* though. Try running the container of coconut oil in some warm water till it melts, mix the oil with some whey (chocolate flavor is amazing for this) until its thick but not like dough. Freeze and crack off a piece to snack on, tastes like chocolate. But look here for your. Try here though, just posted a couple days ago I think Strength Training, Bodybuilding & Online Supplement Store - T NATION
[quote]@ DJS[/quote]Are you really suggesting that since science is an evolving process, that we should stop dead in our tracks? Why not try to further it? You’re really pretty close (based on macros) to the Anaconda protocol. If science shows that MCTs will help, would you really not be willing to add them to your DJS protocol?
Not trying to be mean, I don’t think it really makes sense to go against the latest research if it also flies in the face of in the trenches knowledge as well. i.e. Science = new knowledge of post workout catecholamine effects on carb utilization + knowledge of fatty acids and testosterone etc; In-the-trenches = CT’s great results following the low carb post workout per his current protocol
Now, isn’t that what you wanted to hear? That you are very in tune with your body and all this science stuff is easy and intuitive for you?
[/quote]
I’m not suggesting any of the above. My comment wasn’t geared towards MCTs either. It’s a simple message of don’t believe everything you read. I’ve seen quite a few fad nutrition ideas come and go. I just don’t empty my wallet everytime a new one comes along anymore. It doesn’t mean I’m not paying attention to new ideas. I am here afterall.
[quote]@ DJS[/quote]Are you really suggesting that since science is an evolving process, that we should stop dead in our tracks? Why not try to further it? You’re really pretty close (based on macros) to the Anaconda protocol. If science shows that MCTs will help, would you really not be willing to add them to your DJS protocol?
Not trying to be mean, I don’t think it really makes sense to go against the latest research if it also flies in the face of in the trenches knowledge as well. i.e. Science = new knowledge of post workout catecholamine effects on carb utilization + knowledge of fatty acids and testosterone etc; In-the-trenches = CT’s great results following the low carb post workout per his current protocol
Now, isn’t that what you wanted to hear? That you are very in tune with your body and all this science stuff is easy and intuitive for you?
[/quote]
I’m not suggesting any of the above. My comment wasn’t geared towards MCTs either. It’s a simple message of don’t believe everything you read. I’ve seen quite a few fad nutrition ideas come and go. I just don’t empty my wallet everytime a new one comes along anymore. It doesn’t mean I’m not paying attention to new ideas. I am here afterall.[/quote]
I was just razzing ya. I didn’t mean anything by it. Glad you didn’t freak out. True – you are here Take care.
Specifically what I want to know is if the fat has any effect besides making a slower release of amino acids into the blood stream that lead to the rise in MPS from whole milk as compared to skim milk seen in the study.
Take care.