[quote]ZEB wrote:
Orion it seems that you like debate spiritual matters, am I correct?
[/quote]
Yes, but for other reasons than you might think.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
karva wrote:
The only thing I denounce is literalistic interpretations of the Bible.
That’s sort of odd.
When other well known authors write books on various topics everyone takes them literally.
They write things down so that you are able to learn what they already know.
But the men who wrote the Bible (inspired by God) did not want to be taken literally?
I have to disagree with you on that.
[/quote]
By all means. You are entitled to do so.
Surely they wanted to be taken literally. But I tend to choose what books, or parts of books, I believe in. I think, that you do that too.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
karva,
Steveo wrote: What are you going to do about your sin?
karva wrote: I try to be good.
I think you have hit the nail on the head with this one karva.
How can you be “good enough” to enter into Gods presence?
The answer is YOU CANNOT!
And that is why God sent his one and only son Jesus Christ.
By accepting Christ you are now “good enough.”
By the way, who do you think Jesus Christ is if not the son of God?
[/quote]
As an evangelical-lutheran I know that God’s grace is needed for salvation. I don’t take Luther literally, though.
Who Jesus Christ was? I know only what the Bible states, He is a man and God’s son. Can’t really claim, that I understand that. When praying - I do it sometimes - I’m always a little bit confused about should I address it to Jesus or God.
[quote]karva wrote:
As an evangelical-lutheran I know that God’s grace is needed for salvation. I don’t take Luther literally, though.
Who Jesus Christ was? I know only what the Bible states, He is a man and God’s son. Can’t really claim, that I understand that. When praying - I do it sometimes - I’m always a little bit confused about should I address it to Jesus or God.[/quote]
What do you mean you don’t take Luther literally?
Whenever you have questions about prayer, it is good to first look at the Lord?s Prayer. Notice that it begins “Our Father, who art in Heaven”
I would also point you to Romans 5 1-11. If God has saved you (this comes by grace alone through faith, and not by works) then you have access to God the Father.
I like to address my prayers “Dear heavenly Father”, and close them “In Jesus name” in order to acknowledge that God is hearing my prayers only because of the blood of Jesus.
Karva,
You were asked “why should God forgive you?” and you answered "why shouldn’t he?? This is your problem.
It is not necessarily that our sins are so horrible (although I can vouch for my own case that they are), but rather that God is so holy. If you were standing before a judge in a court of law, charged with various crimes, would you expect the judge to let you go just because he is a nice guy? No, if the judge is good, he will uphold justice. God is the perfect just judge, and he will hand out justice.
Would the judge let you go if you told him you were sorry? No, you should be sorry for your crimes.
Now imagine if you were in that courtroom and someone that you didn’t even know came in and offered to pay your fine and take your punishment for you. That is what God did when he sent Jesus to die for you. Not because you deserve it, but because of God’s great love and mercy.
Another question: how would you react to that person who showed up to take your punishment? Would you say “oh, thanks, see you later” and walk out the door?
Imagine if you were in an airplane that was about to crash and you knew that there was a parachute under your seat. Would it do you any good to simply believe in the parachute? No, you would have to put it on. The Bible instructs believers to “put on the Lord Jesus”. This means that we die to ourselves, turn from our sins, trust Him alone to save us, and submit our lives to Him.
[quote]orion wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Orion it seems that you like debate spiritual matters, am I correct?
Yes, but for other reasons than you might think.
[/quote]
I don’t know the reasons, perhaps you could share them with me.
[quote]karva wrote:
ZEB wrote:
karva wrote:
The only thing I denounce is literalistic interpretations of the Bible.
That’s sort of odd.
When other well known authors write books on various topics everyone takes them literally.
They write things down so that you are able to learn what they already know.
But the men who wrote the Bible (inspired by God) did not want to be taken literally?
I have to disagree with you on that.
By all means. You are entitled to do so.
Surely they wanted to be taken literally. But I tend to choose what books, or parts of books, I believe in. I think, that you do that too.
[/quote]
I believe that the entire Bible was inspired by God as it states clearly in Timothy.
[quote]karva wrote:
ZEB wrote:
karva,
Steveo wrote: What are you going to do about your sin?
karva wrote: I try to be good.
I think you have hit the nail on the head with this one karva.
How can you be “good enough” to enter into Gods presence?
The answer is YOU CANNOT!
And that is why God sent his one and only son Jesus Christ.
By accepting Christ you are now “good enough.”
By the way, who do you think Jesus Christ is if not the son of God?
As an evangelical-lutheran I know that God’s grace is needed for salvation. I don’t take Luther literally, though.
Who Jesus Christ was? I know only what the Bible states, He is a man and God’s son. Can’t really claim, that I understand that. When praying - I do it sometimes - I’m always a little bit confused about should I address it to Jesus or God.[/quote]
It seems to me that you’re on the right track.
Jesus is the “mediator” between God and man. Therefore, we pray to the father (God) in the name of Jesus Christ (the son).
In this way we are acknowledging Jesu Christ as the son of God and the only “bridge” between God and man.
[quote]JPBear wrote:
karva wrote:
As an evangelical-lutheran I know that God’s grace is needed for salvation. I don’t take Luther literally, though.
Who Jesus Christ was? I know only what the Bible states, He is a man and God’s son. Can’t really claim, that I understand that. When praying - I do it sometimes - I’m always a little bit confused about should I address it to Jesus or God.
What do you mean you don’t take Luther literally?
Whenever you have questions about prayer, it is good to first look at the Lord?s Prayer. Notice that it begins “Our Father, who art in Heaven”
I would also point you to Romans 5 1-11. If God has saved you (this comes by grace alone through faith, and not by works) then you have access to God the Father.
I like to address my prayers “Dear heavenly Father”, and close them “In Jesus name” in order to acknowledge that God is hearing my prayers only because of the blood of Jesus.
[/quote]
Thank you for your answer. Sincerity is beautiful.
Luther wrote in his own time as a reaction to the problems he had with the Catholic church, you know, those tickets to heaven they sold. I don’t remember what they are in english. He wrote also about building ‘a fortress of belief’ (my translation). I don’t agree with this, I think such a fortress is detrimental to the human spirit. This as an example, why I don’t take Luther literally. I agree with him in that, that we dont need any priests to talk to
God, though.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
By the way, who do you think Jesus Christ is if not the son of God?
[/quote]
Is Jesus the son of God by adoption? Or through procreation? May God forgive your blasphemies. Does God come out of a woman’s vagina?
“Say: He is God, the One and Only; God, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him.” (The Noble Quran, 112:1-4)
In Hebrew, the word “son” is the same word as “servant”. That is why the Bible calls many people the “servants” (or sons according to the usual translations) of God. Same with the greek word “pias”, which is translated as “son” when describing Jesus and “servant” when the same word is used for other people in the Bible.
also see,
Matthew 12:18: “Behold my servant, whom I have chosen.”
Acts 3:13(RSV): “The God of Abraham, and of Isaac,… hath glorified his servant Jesus.”
Acts 4:27(RSV): “For of a truth against thy holy servant Jesus, whom thou hast anointed…”
if “son” is meant figuratively then it applies to all mankind and not only to Isa son of Mary, peace be upon them. There are tons of instances where the Bible refers to other people as sons of God.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
karva wrote:
The only thing I denounce is literalistic interpretations of the Bible.
That’s sort of odd.
When other well known authors write books on various topics everyone takes them literally.
They write things down so that you are able to learn what they already know.
But the men who wrote the Bible (inspired by God) did not want to be taken literally?
I have to disagree with you on that.
[/quote]
I think we’ve hit it on the head here. As Zeb says, which few die hard fundamentalists seem to be able to admit, is that the bible although inspired by God, was written by men. Men have always served their own interests since the dawn of history. Do you believe that in the writing of these scriptures there was absolutely no influence of the men who wrote the bible, based on their own perceptions of the truth?
I think that people overuse that line from Mark.
I think that what Jesus was saying is that through him( ie. living the right way like him) you could find salvation. Not I am the man you must follow me and only me and every other belief system is bs! I think that the creator of our universe is a little less myopic than that.
I have been saved and do believe in Jesus Christ and try to live my life in a right manner, showing compassion for all others, helping my fellow man, etc.
However I have a very personal relationship with our creator and he doesn’t believe there is one way. “It” gave us the ability to choose our faith freely and just like the many languages of our earth there are many ways to say “his” name and many paths to get there.
[quote]silencer wrote:
ZEB wrote:
By the way, who do you think Jesus Christ is if not the son of God?
Is Jesus the son of God by adoption? Or through procreation? May God forgive your blasphemies. Does God come out of a woman’s vagina?
“Say: He is God, the One and Only; God, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him.” (The Noble Quran, 112:1-4)
In Hebrew, the word “son” is the same word as “servant”. That is why the Bible calls many people the “servants” (or sons according to the usual translations) of God. Same with the greek word “pias”, which is translated as “son” when describing Jesus and “servant” when the same word is used for other people in the Bible.
also see,
Matthew 12:18: “Behold my servant, whom I have chosen.”
Acts 3:13(RSV): “The God of Abraham, and of Isaac,… hath glorified his servant Jesus.”
Acts 4:27(RSV): “For of a truth against thy holy servant Jesus, whom thou hast anointed…”
if “son” is meant figuratively then it applies to all mankind and not only to Isa son of Mary, peace be upon them. There are tons of instances where the Bible refers to other people as sons of God.
[/quote]
not so fast. Here is the definition for Pais
G3816
παῖς
pais
paheece
Perhaps from G3817; a boy (as often beaten with impunity), or (by analogy) a girl, and (generally) a child; specifically a slave or servant (especially a minister to a king; and by eminence to God): - child, maid (-en), (man) servant, son, young man.
Here is the definition for the word that is almost always used in the gospels when referring to Jesus.
(I.e. son of)
G5207
υἱός
uihos
hwee-os’
Apparently a primary word; a ?son? (sometimes of animals), d very widely of immediate remote or figurative kinship: - child, foal, son.
I did a search for how many times each came up in the gospels
Pais is found only once. It is in no way a reference to Jesus either.
Joh 4:51 And as he was now going down, his servants met him, and told him, saying, Thy son liveth.
As for the greek word ref. # 5207 I lost count because there were so many in the gospels.
You weren’t being very forth coming in your reply.
[quote]silencer wrote:
[/quote]
To further demonstrate.
Pais is found in only two other spots when in the NT (I excluded revelation from this search).
Acts 3:13, and 3:16
Those are references to Jesus. They unfortunatly don’t even begin to compare to the vast usage of the word uihos.
If we weren’t speaking of Christ as a literal son then the more apporpriate word would be teknon.
G5043
τέκνον
teknon
tek’-non
From the base of G5098; a child (as produced): - child, daughter, son.
usage of the word can be found in
I Cor. 4:17
Phi 2:22
I Tim 1:18
Your post on pais being the word used for Son while correct is a huge stretch compared to the common use of the other word.
[quote]haney wrote:
You weren’t being very forth coming in your reply.[/quote]
why would I lie? am i not interested in the truth myself? so why would i lie? either i got it wrong from the link i relied on, or your search turned out wrong. i’m not sure. i’ll look into it more.
anyway, i’ve seen tons of bible verses calling people “sons of god”. there was on poster on a church saying that those who feed the hungry will be called sons of god.
also i read in Elaine Pagels’ “Beyond Belief: The Secret Gospel of Thomas”, as a sidenote, that the word “son” and “servant” were the same.
i’ll try to look into it more and find you examples. but I have no reason to lie.
here’s an example:
Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities. (King James Version)
Acts 3:26; KJV - Unto you first God, having raised up - Bible Gateway;
To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities.? (New King James Version)
Acts 3:26; NKJV - To you first, God, having raised up His - Bible Gateway;
[quote]silencer wrote:
here’s an example:
Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities. (King James Version)
Acts 3:26; KJV - Unto you first God, having raised up - Bible Gateway;
To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities.? (New King James Version)
look above both of your last two posts. I included those verses just for you.
Not accusing you of lying. I don’t think you did a very thorough search.
If I am wrong then so is Strong’s and Thayers greek dictionary.
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus), says to his students of the Greek language, that he found 24 instances of “pais”, translated as follows in the GNT: (the commentary is also his)
“And as he was yet a coming, the devil threw him down, and tare him. And
Jesus rebuked the unclean spirit, and healed the child, and
delivered him again to his father.” (Luke 9:42)
Here the context seems to indicate that the PAIS is a child and the son of
the man who referred the problem to Jesus.
The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers,
hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him
in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go." Acts
3:13
Here I think the sense is “Servant” rather than “Son.”
“Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to
bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.” Acts
3:26
Here too I think that “Servant” is probably the preferred sense.
“For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast
anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the
people of Israel, were gathered together,” Acts 4:27
“Servant” here too.
“And they brought the young man alive, and were not a little
comforted.” Acts 20:12
This one’s interesting and decidedly different: in 20:9 Eutychus is
described as a NEANIAS; I suspect that the KJV translators took their cue
from 20:9 in translating PAIS in 20:12 as “young man.” But if he was a
NEANIAS in the proper sense, he’s more likely to have been a “servant” than
a “child.” I see that TEV uses “young man” in 20:9 and “boy” in 20:12. I
think that’s better, since we DO use “boy” in current English for an older
adolescent or even a youth older than a teen-ager.
http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-greek/2002-August/022431.html
so either you were less than forthcoming about the results of your search, or you made a mistake.
[quote]silencer wrote:
ZEB wrote:
By the way, who do you think Jesus Christ is if not the son of God?
Is Jesus the son of God by adoption? Or through procreation? May God forgive your blasphemies. Does God come out of a woman’s vagina? [/quote]
Jesus Christ was always there, from the beginning.
He took a human form and was born to a virgin to accomplish his mission of saving all who would believe.
[quote]if “son” is meant figuratively then it applies to all mankind and not only to Isa son of Mary, peace be upon them. There are tons of instances where the Bible refers to other people as sons of God.
[/quote]
The New Testament was originally written in Greek, not Hebrew. Actually Koine Greek, the vernacular dialect in the 1st-century Roman provinces.
And rest assured “son” means son!
[quote]silencer wrote:
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus), says to his students of the Greek language, that he found 24 instances of “pais”, translated as follows in the GNT: (the commentary is also his)
“And as he was yet a coming, the devil threw him down, and tare him. And
Jesus rebuked the unclean spirit, and healed the child, and
delivered him again to his father.” (Luke 9:42)
Here the context seems to indicate that the PAIS is a child and the son of
the man who referred the problem to Jesus.
The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers,
hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him
in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go." Acts
3:13
Here I think the sense is “Servant” rather than “Son.”
“Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to
bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.” Acts
3:26
Here too I think that “Servant” is probably the preferred sense.
“For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast
anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the
people of Israel, were gathered together,” Acts 4:27
“Servant” here too.
“And they brought the young man alive, and were not a little
comforted.” Acts 20:12
This one’s interesting and decidedly different: in 20:9 Eutychus is
described as a NEANIAS; I suspect that the KJV translators took their cue
from 20:9 in translating PAIS in 20:12 as “young man.” But if he was a
NEANIAS in the proper sense, he’s more likely to have been a “servant” than
a “child.” I see that TEV uses “young man” in 20:9 and “boy” in 20:12. I
think that’s better, since we DO use “boy” in current English for an older
adolescent or even a youth older than a teen-ager.
http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-greek/2002-August/022431.html
so either you were less than forthcoming about the results of your search, or you made a mistake.[/quote]
I had to do my search by hand so the mistake is possible. I also mentioned that I didn’t search Revelations so that could be where the other 19 are.
I pointed out the references that I had with the verse.
24 references though doesn’t even come close to the amount of references to the other word.
I also didn’t say my word was the only word used for son. Which is why I implied that you wern’t being forth coming. Not because of your translation of the word. There are multiple greek words that are used for “son” in the NT, and the Hebrew. All of them have a different meaning too.
Uihos is found the most often in the NT. So the possibility of it not being seen as literal is slim.
[quote]storey420 wrote:
I think that what Jesus was saying is that through him( ie. living the right way like him) you could find salvation. Not I am the man you must follow me and only me and every other belief system is bs! [/quote]
Jesus earliest disciples tell us that he claimed to be the one and only path to God. He said, If you don?t follow me, you will not be in the kingdom of God (Matthew 7:26-27). If you reject me, you will not be with me in eternity (Matthew 10:32-33).
And:
Jesus said that “God has entrusted all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him” (John 5:22-23). Jesus claimed to be the exclusive means of truth and salvation. People who reject him are also rejecting God.
“I am the light of the world,” he said (John 8:12). “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well” (John 14:6-7). People who claim that there are other ways to salvation are wrong, Jesus said.
The early disciples also preached the same message:
Peter was equally blunt when he told the Jewish leaders, “Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12).
Paul also made it clear when he said that people who did not know Christ were “dead in your transgressions and sins” (Ephesians 2:1). They had no hope, and despite their religious beliefs, they did not have God (verse 12). There is only one Mediator, he said?only one way to get to God (1 Timothy 2:5). Jesus was the ransom that everyone needed (1 Timothy 4:10). If there were any other law, or any other path that offered salvation, then God would have done it (Galatians 3:21).
It is through Christ that the world is reconciled to God (Colossians 1:20-22). Paul was called to spread the gospel among the gentiles. Their religion, he said, was worthless (Acts 14:15). It is like the book of Hebrews says: Christ is not just better than other paths?he is effective whereas they are not (Hebrews 10:11). It is an all-or-nothing difference, not one of relative benefit!
As you can see it transcends what Mark wrote. Jesus is THE only way to God and to eternal salvation.
Don’t be pulled into the politically correct world that we live in today. Which says there are plenty of ways to come to God and heaven, that is simply NOT the case according to the Bible.
Yea, I have a lot of personal views too regarding various things in the Bible. But I separate MY personal views from the truth that is in the scriptures.
Many folks head off in the wrong direction today. They think that God has to fit THEIR version of what God should be.
But as we know that’s not the case.
[quote]I have been saved and do believe in Jesus Christ and try to live my life in a right manner, showing compassion for all others, helping my fellow man, etc.
However I have a very personal relationship with our creator and he doesn’t believe there is one way. “It” gave us the ability to choose our faith freely and just like the many languages of our earth there are many ways to say “his” name and many paths to get there. [/quote]
As I have listed above there is only ONE way and ONE path to get to the father.
That is JESUS CHRIST!
Please don’t lead others astray.
Your stance on this is not based on scripture. It is a worldly, politically correct all encompassing view. It’s dangerous and quite wrong!