[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
miniross wrote:
This thread should do what Jesus did and DIE.
Amazing isn’t it.
Death couldn’t hold Jesus. The Bible still lives on despite all of the critics and attempts to rid the world of the Word.
Amazing![/quote]
Yes, you are absolutely right.
I also beggars belief.
Can anything hold you?
Maybe you have the POWER OF PHEONIX?
Zeb…
Very bloody funny!!! i’ll set them up, you knock em down.
[quote]miniross wrote:
Zeb…
Very bloody funny!!! i’ll set them up, you knock em down.[/quote]
Okay pal I’m in.
[quote]alstan90 wrote:
Can I ask you something steveo…
Do you think people of other faits, ie islam, judaism, go to hell?[/quote]
I’m not Steveo but I feel compelled to jump in here anyway.
The answer to this question is answered in John 14:6:
"Jesus told him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me.
He didn’t say “some people can get to the father.” He said “NO ONE” can get to the father except through Jesus Christ!
LUKE 15:11-32 gives us a clear answer to this.
Jesus tells us of the parable of the wayward son.
(I suggest that you read it)
Basically someone who did many wrong things came back to his father and asked for forgiveness. The father gave this forgiveness even though his other son didn’t like it.
The fact is you can’t fool God!
Those who have committed heinous crimes and then say that they have found Jesus might be able to fool the press, or some others, but not God.
If he is truly repenting of his sins and he is truly accepting Jesus Christ as his savior then he is in fact forgiven!
Keep in mind that he does not have to be forgiven by you, me or any other human being. He only has to be forgiven by God!
And only God knows is this person truly repentent and accepting Jesus Christ.
[quote]While someone who has always been kind and helped people, you know a genuinely nice person, who doesn’t have faith go to hell?
I hope you don’t say yes…[/quote]
Once again we will look to the scriptures to find the answer:
Read Mark 10:17-21for yourself.
Basically it says,
a wealthy young man asked Jesus what he should do to obtain eternal life. Christ told him all of the good things that he must do.
The rich man said that he did all those things. He observed all of these things since he “was a child.”
Truly a good human being in every way!
Jesus then told him to sell all of this possesions and follow him (Jesus).
The man went away sad…Because although he was a good man and had many things…he was not ready to follow Jesus Christ.
Plenty of people do “good things.” And it’s important to do kind acts.
But “kind acts” will NOT get you into the kingdom of heaven.
Again let’s check scripture Jesus says in Mark 12:28-31 that you are to
“Love your neighbor as yourself.” Kind people do this!
However,
He said the most important commandment is this: “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.”
Tell me, how can a “kind man” get into heaven by ignoring the most important commandment of God?
SUMMARY:
The God of the Universe gave his one and only son as a sacrifice for all time.
It was a most precious gift given for you.
I know how I would feel if I gave something very near and dear to me to you as a gift. All you would have to do is accept it, and you laughed in my face and tossed it away…
A quick analogy:
Just like those folks who might laugh at us for training and “eating clean.”
“There must be another way” they say.
It’s funny how some on this site can accept the fact that there really is no other way but to train in some way and eat properly etc. in order to get into shape and stay there.
But when it comes to eternity everyone scrambles thinking there must be other ways…Or, perhaps every way works just fine.
What about all those other faiths?
Well…what about all those other fad diets?
There is a right and wrong answer here. For the sake of your eternity I hope you choose wisely!
[quote]alstan90 wrote:
Can I ask you something steveo…
Do you think people of other faits, ie islam, judaism, go to hell?
Also what about someone who has commited the most horrible crimes during their life, suppose a paedophile went to prison, came out, then murdered a little girl, and went back inside for life. In prison he repented his sins and turned to god and christianity. Does he go to heaven? While someone who has always been kind and helped people, you know a genuinely nice person, who doesn’t have faith go to hell?
I hope you don’t say yes…[/quote]
First of all, everyone is a sinner. Now to us, different sins have different degrees of horror and they do! However, since God is Holy and cannot be in the presence of sin, ALL sin is sin to God and therefore must be punished.
God has provided a way for [b] everyone – Jew, Muslim, Catholic, etc. – to go to Heaven. That way is Jesus Christ (period!).
There is no other Name under Heaven whereby we must be saved! There aren’t many ways to God – there is ONE WAY. Jesus said Himself:
“I am the way, the truth and the life, [i] no man (no one) comes unto the Father, except by (through) me.” [/b]
Anyone who accepts Jesus Christ as their personal Savior from sin and trusts only Jesus – not Jewish law, Muslim Law, Catholic dogma, etc. – that perons will go to Heaven. All others are on their way to Hell – but it doesn’t have to be that way! Everyone has the opportunity to hear and come to the Truth.
As for your hypothetical “crimminal” that murders, rapes, and then comes to God. To this I can only say that I always doubt these jailhouse “conversions.” That is a matter between the person and God.
How about YOU . What are YOU going to do with Jesus now that you have heard the Truth that you (and everyone else) are a sinner, and that if you don’t accept Jesus’ payment for your sin, you will have to pay for your own sin by an eternity in Hell. Stop worrying about this mythological “crimminal.” We are ALL crimminals in God’s sight. Work on yourself!
[quote]ZEB wrote:
alstan90 wrote:
Can I ask you something steveo…
Do you think people of other faits, ie islam, judaism, go to hell?
I’m not Steveo but I feel compelled to jump in here anyway.
The answer to this question is answered in John 14:6:
"Jesus told him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me.
He didn’t say “some people can get to the father.” He said “NO ONE” can get to the father except through Jesus Christ!
Also what about someone who has commited the most horrible crimes during their life, suppose a paedophile went to prison, came out, then murdered a little girl, and went back inside for life. In prison he repented his sins and turned to god and christianity. Does he go to heaven?
LUKE 15:11-32 gives us a clear answer to this.
Jesus tells us of the parable of the wayward son.
(I suggest that you read it)
Basically someone who did many wrong things came back to his father and asked for forgiveness. The father gave this forgiveness even though his other son didn’t like it.
The fact is you can’t fool God!
Those who have committed heinous crimes and then say that they have found Jesus might be able to fool the press, or some others, but not God.
If he is truly repenting of his sins and he is truly accepting Jesus Christ as his savior then he is in fact forgiven!
Keep in mind that he does not have to be forgiven by you, me or any other human being. He only has to be forgiven by God!
And only God knows is this person truly repentent and accepting Jesus Christ.
While someone who has always been kind and helped people, you know a genuinely nice person, who doesn’t have faith go to hell?
I hope you don’t say yes…
Once again we will look to the scriptures to find the answer:
Read Mark 10:17-21for yourself.
Basically it says,
a wealthy young man asked Jesus what he should do to obtain eternal life. Christ told him all of the good things that he must do.
The rich man said that he did all those things. He observed all of these things since he “was a child.”
Truly a good human being in every way!
Jesus then told him to sell all of this possesions and follow him (Jesus).
The man went away sad…Because although he was a good man and had many things…he was not ready to follow Jesus Christ.
Plenty of people do “good things.” And it’s important to do kind acts.
But “kind acts” will NOT get you into the kingdom of heaven.
Again let’s check scripture Jesus says in Mark 12:28-31 that you are to
“Love your neighbor as yourself.” Kind people do this!
However,
He said the most important commandment is this: “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.”
Tell me, how can a “kind man” get into heaven by ignoring the most important commandment of God?
SUMMARY:
The God of the Universe gave his one and only son as a sacrifice for all time.
It was a most precious gift given for you.
I know how I would feel if I gave something very near and dear to me to you as a gift. All you would have to do is accept it, and you laughed in my face and tossed it away…
A quick analogy:
Just like those folks who might laugh at us for training and “eating clean.”
“There must be another way” they say.
It’s funny how some on this site can accept the fact that there really is no other way but to train in some way and eat properly etc. in order to get into shape and stay there.
But when it comes to eternity everyone scrambles thinking there must be other ways…Or, perhaps every way works just fine.
What about all those other faiths?
Well…what about all those other fad diets?
There is a right and wrong answer here. For the sake of your eternity I hope you choose wisely!
[/quote]
Excellent Biblical analysis Zeb! I am embarrassed by my short answer here. This is the heart of the matter – it doesn’t matter what WE think SHOULD BE – God is God, and He makes the rules!
Thanks Zeb!
Good answers Zeb!
There’s another thing to point out about the rich young ruler. We can tell by the way that Jesus spoke with him that he had a proud heart. Jesus gave him the law in order to show him his own sin. But he did not see it; he professed his own goodness, claiming to have kept all the commandments.
Whenever a broken or contrite person approached Jesus, he did not give them the law, instead he forgave their sins. They were ready for grace.
After the rich young ruler answered Jesus with pride, notice that Jesus did not try to explain the way of salvation to him. Instead he attempted to show him the depth of the requirements of the law, in order to convince him that he was not righteous.
We can learn a lot about effective evangelism from this example. It has been said that the law of God is like a mirror. Man should look to it not for instructions, but in order to see the reflection of his soul. We should hold up the law to the unsaved before we tell them about the good news. No one is going to accept a cure when they don’t believe they are sick.
Got to take you up on this analogy ZEB.
If we were to say that longevity and peak health are the goals ? then lifting and eating clean are ?the way?.
But these are definately not the only way.
Some jog and follow the atkins diet religiously, some walk 5 miles per day and have a high carb, low fat diet.
Some have no particular diet / health regimin and yet genetically they have a fast metabolism and stay lean and healthy.
Which is the right way? ? all provide the same result?
To continue the analogy, what about those that live rather primitively with very basic technology, eat sparingly, participate in a rigorous lifestyle, and yet live well into their 90?s with minimal health problems? Perhaps their?s is the ?right? way?
I?m reminded of a quote which I?ll no doubt butcher:
The goal may be the peak of the mountain, but there are as many paths up as there are climbers.
You say Christianity, he says Islam, she says Buddism, he says Hinduism, pookie says FSMism.
If these people belive in their way, then that is the true way ?for them.
And you fundamentalists are doing nothing for your cause by saying yours is the one, the only. Certainly it is. For you. Please leave it at that.
Whilst I appreciate your offer of ? hey my way is a good way, come this way?, as I see it, your way up is a well trodden path ? a bit too plain and the view doesn?t look that great from where I am at the moment, and compounding that, many who tread your well-worn path repeat to themselves that any other path is faulty and you fall off and try to scare others with this.
I don?t believe that.
I prefer to explore for myself, and I?ll make my own way up the mountain thank you very much.
ShaunW
[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
First of all, everyone is a sinner. Now to us, different sins have different degrees of horror and they do! However, since God is Holy and cannot be in the presence of sin, ALL sin is sin to God and therefore must be punished.
God has provided a way for [b] everyone – Jew, Muslim, Catholic, etc. – to go to Heaven. That way is Jesus Christ (period!).
There is no other Name under Heaven whereby we must be saved! There aren’t many ways to God – there is ONE WAY. Jesus said Himself:
“I am the way, the truth and the life, [i] no man (no one) comes unto the Father, except by (through) me.” [/b]
Anyone who accepts Jesus Christ as their personal Savior from sin and trusts only Jesus – not Jewish law, Muslim Law, Catholic dogma, etc. – that perons will go to Heaven. All others are on their way to Hell – but it doesn’t have to be that way! Everyone has the opportunity to hear and come to the Truth.
As for your hypothetical “crimminal” that murders, rapes, and then comes to God. To this I can only say that I always doubt these jailhouse “conversions.” That is a matter between the person and God.
How about YOU . What are YOU going to do with Jesus now that you have heard the Truth that you (and everyone else) are a sinner, and that if you don’t accept Jesus’ payment for your sin, you will have to pay for your own sin by an eternity in Hell. Stop worrying about this mythological “crimminal.” We are ALL crimminals in God’s sight. Work on yourself! [/i]
[/quote]
"And they say: None shall enter Paradise except he who is a Jew or a Christian. These are their vain desires. Say: Bring your proof if you are truthful.
Indeed, whoever submits himself entirely to God and he is the doer of good, he has his reward from his Lord, and there is no fear for him nor shall he grieve.
And the Jews say the Christians have no basis in what they follow, and the Christians say the Jews have no basis in what they follow; yet both are readers of the Scripture. Even thus speak those who know not. God will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection concerning that wherein they differ."
(Qur’an 2:111-113)
Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in God and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve. (Qur’an 2:62)
[quote]ZEB wrote:
karva wrote:
ZEB wrote:
What the haters and even the doubters should do is to point out Biblically where Steveo, me or any Christian is wrong relative to the scriptures.
I do not have to point out anything. Why should I try to point out, that you don’t know the Bible? That’s not even true, is it? The fact, that you know the Bible is not a proof of God. And if we find out, that you have misinterpreted something, that doesn’t disprove him.
First keep in mind why this thread was begun:
This thread is for anyone interested in their eternal soul. If you would like to know how to be saved and accept the only way to salvation – Jesus Christ – please post on this thread.
Hence, no one is really here to “prove” the existance of God!
I encouraged you (and everyone) to spend time in the Bible in order to make sure that anyone posting on this thread is true and accurate relative to their quoting of the scripture.
As far as Gods existance I will quote this one passage:
ROMANS 1:20:
"For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature-have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse!"
Interestig, God’s word says that there is no excuse for not knowing that there is a God.
The fact that you posted here tells me that you do have some interest in God.
I hope that you explore that interest by exploring the Bible.
Take care,
Zeb
[/quote]
This thread was started as a reaction to an earlier debate. It was started to see who’s on which side. There is also a denouncing thread somewhere.
The only thing I denounce is literalistic interpretations of the Bible. What I wanted to point out is, that you really shouldn’t expect non-believers to prove you biblically wrong. They (and I) don’t see the Bible as the direct revelation of God as you do, so there is no point in trying to point it out with scripture-snippets.
[quote]haney wrote:
you are trying make true believers fit your dogma of what you think they are.
I am trying to figure out what makes you any differant than any fundaliteralist.
[/quote]
Well the last part is easy. I do not get my ideas from scriptures claiming to be the WORD OF GOD and I am not willing to explain inconsistensies in my world view away by theological gymnastics.
Be that as it may, the Deuteronomy seems to have been “found” by Josiah the same way the privilegium major was “discovered” by Duke Rudolf, which makes me wonder what else in that book conveniently appeared at the right place at the right time, or managed to do the opposite, to disappear when convenient.
I think I have one of my answers, the Qu?ran, having one author an being written in a very short time, leaves much less wiggle room.
Plus, you do not have use my interpretation of the bible at all, pretty much every member of the Spanish Inquisition was probably an infinitely more skilled theologian than you.
What did they not get, that you do?
Or, to put it differently, why is your interpretation of The Bible more valid than that of St. Augustin?
Which leads us to the interesting question, if different interpretation are possible, why are the peaceful ones necessarily more Christian than the ones that call for violence?
Maybe that whole “peaceful” stuff is just a modern, pc, abberation?
[quote]alstan90 wrote:
I respect Jesus, but only because we all know he started the sport of powerlifting, it must have taken him years of dedicated training to move that huge boulder…[/quote]
Functional strength …
[quote]ZEB wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
This is a public forum and everyone has the right to post, answer, and most of all be respected.
Not according to harris who stated that Christians deserve to be mocked and ridiculed.
[/quote]
He stated that the CHRISTIAN FAITH desevers to be mocked and ridiculed.
I agree.
So do all other faiths, by the way…#
That, he also wrote…
You convenietly missed that, it seems…
[quote]orion wrote:
Well the last part is easy. I do not get my ideas from scriptures claiming to be the WORD OF GOD and I am not willing to explain inconsistensies in my world view away by theological gymnastics.
[/quote]
In my opinion neither do they. They only claim to.
Please explain what you are referring to. Dueteronomy is claimed to be a book of Moses, and there wouldn’t be much wiggle room with it outside of its completetion by Joshua.
That is very subjective. One could have said the same thing about the Church fathers of Luther’s day. Now he is praised as a saint.
[quote]
What did they not get, that you do?
Or, to put it differently, why is your interpretation of The Bible more valid than that of St. Augustin? [/quote]
Personally I study some of Augustine’s stuff to help refine my interpretation. Augustine doesn’t believe the way you do. neither did many of the early Church fathers. Certainly Christ, Paul, and Peter didn’t. Interesting rather then dropping your whole claims that Christians can’t advocate peace, and must overthrow their governments. You side step. You bring in a dark age church that was known for its extreme corruption. Why not stick to your point?
Show me where Christ called for us to go out and attack people.
You know Christian come from the term Christ like.
Didn’t Jesus rebuke peter for attacking the guard and cutting off his ear?
[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
karva wrote:
ZEB wrote:
What the haters and even the doubters should do is to point out Biblically where Steveo, me or any Christian is wrong relative to the scriptures.
I do not have to point out anything. Why should I try to point out, that you don’t know the Bible? That’s not even true, is it? The fact, that you know the Bible is not a proof of God. And if we find out, that you have misinterpreted something, that doesn’t disprove him.
Karva,
Do think you are a sinner?
[/quote]
Yes, Steveo5801, I’m a sinner. Everybody is.
[quote]
What are you going to do about your sin? [/quote]
I try to be good.
[quote]
Why should God forgive you? [/quote]
Why shouldn’t he?
My ‘feel’ is not inferior or superior to your ‘feel’. I’m not staking anything, it is you who claim that I’m doing so. I do believe in God, that’s my choice, but I do not believe in literal interpretations of the Bible.
[quote]orion wrote:
Everything.
It is THE WORD OF THE LORD!!!
WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU NOT GET ABOUT THIS?
IF ALLAH SAYS YOU DIE, YOU DIE!
Period.
Their Holy Book is as much an authority as yours.
They have more in common with you than with me, which is why I am trying to get answers fron you.[/quote]
I don’t know about Muslims, but I can tell you that there is nothing in the teaching of Jesus that advocates killing anyone. So what is similar about that with Muslims?
Sounds like you are making generalizations when you don’t know the facts.
So what questions do you have that need answering about Christians?
[quote]harris447 wrote:
Religion, however, is just a story people believe. None of it actually physically exists. Sure, the buildings the church/synagogue/mosque/temple reside in exist (tax-free for some totally unfathomable reason), but the religions themselves are just memeplexes.
So, then: your analogy is utter twaddle.
Mocking people who believe in magic is perfectly acceptable. [/quote]
Religion is different that a belief in a higher power. And the proof that a higher power does exist is the change that it makes in peoples lives. For example, you have a criminal who has killed many people and doesn’t care about anyone but himself find God and become a new person, full of compassion and caring for others. THAT, my friend is real. That is as real as race and class and whatever else you want to mention.
Race and class change and affect peoples lives in different ways, but the reality is how it affects their lives. And the reality of God in your life is also how it affects your life. And the fact that God does change peoples lives is proof that God is just as real as race and class.
[quote]ShaunW wrote:
And you fundamentalists are doing nothing for your cause by saying yours is the one, the only. Certainly it is. For you. Please leave it at that.
Whilst I appreciate your offer of ? hey my way is a good way, come this way?, as I see it, your way up is a well trodden path ? a bit too plain and the view doesn?t look that great from where I am at the moment, and compounding that, many who tread your well-worn path repeat to themselves that any other path is faulty and you fall off and try to scare others with this.
I don?t believe that.[/quote]
As Jesus Christ said there is only ONE way to the father and that is through me (Jesus Christ).
Was he a liar?
Was he a madman?
If he was neither of those two things then you might want to consider that of God!
Some other things to consider in making up your mind:
Jesus earliest disciples tell us that he claimed to be the one and only path to God. He said, If you don?t follow me, you will not be in the kingdom of God (Matthew 7:26-27). If you reject me, you will not be with me in eternity (Matthew 10:32-33).
And:
Jesus said that “God has entrusted all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him” (John 5:22-23). Jesus claimed to be the exclusive means of truth and salvation. People who reject him are also rejecting God.
“I am the light of the world,” he said (John 8:12). “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well” (John 14:6-7). People who claim that there are other ways to salvation are wrong, Jesus said.
The early disciples also preached the same message:
Peter was equally blunt when he told the Jewish leaders, “Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12).
Paul also made it clear when he said that people who did not know Christ were “dead in your transgressions and sins” (Ephesians 2:1). They had no hope, and despite their religious beliefs, they did not have God (verse 12). There is only one Mediator, he said?only one way to get to God (1 Timothy 2:5). Jesus was the ransom that everyone needed (1 Timothy 4:10). If there were any other law, or any other path that offered salvation, then God would have done it (Galatians 3:21).
It is through Christ that the world is reconciled to God (Colossians 1:20-22). Paul was called to spread the gospel among the gentiles. Their religion, he said, was worthless (Acts 14:15). It is like the book of Hebrews says: Christ is not just better than other paths?he is effective whereas they are not (Hebrews 10:11). It is an all-or-nothing difference, not one of relative benefit!
I know that we live in politically correct times. It is “cool” to be all inclusive. “Hey man everyone has to find there own path” is what we here in these times.
And when it comes to something like a career move, well I could not agree more!
But, when it comes to eternal life in heaven there is only one way and that way MUST include Jesus Christ.
Otherwise, why would God send his one and only son to die for you if it was not essential that you accept that gift?
Please take the time to review the above passages in the Bible, and think about it.
I have never tried to scare anyone. All I do is quote the Bible regarding the truth. If that “scares you” then you can do something about it.
[quote]I prefer to explore for myself, and I?ll make my own way up the mountain thank you very much.
ShaunW[/quote]
Well Shaun, NO ONE including you my friend, makes “their own way up the mountain.”
There is only one way up this mountain and you have not yet seen it. I’m not surprised as most people have not seen it either!
Narrow is the path to salvation…and sadly most miss it!
But you don’t have to miss it Shaun. Why don’t you open the Bible and take a look?
[quote]karva wrote:
The only thing I denounce is literalistic interpretations of the Bible. [/quote]
That’s sort of odd.
When other well known authors write books on various topics everyone takes them literally.
They write things down so that you are able to learn what they already know.
But the men who wrote the Bible (inspired by God) did not want to be taken literally?
I have to disagree with you on that.
Orion it seems that you like debate spiritual matters, am I correct?
karva,
[quote]Steveo wrote: What are you going to do about your sin?
karva wrote: I try to be good.
[/quote]
I think you have hit the nail on the head with this one karva.
How can you be “good enough” to enter into Gods presence?
The answer is YOU CANNOT!
And that is why God sent his one and only son Jesus Christ.
By accepting Christ you are now “good enough.”
By the way, who do you think Jesus Christ is if not the son of God?