Post Here To Accept Jesus Christ

[haney]

[quote]ZEB wrote:
haney wrote:
lothario1132 wrote:
pssstt! Haney!

Hell MUST be painful and horrible in all ways with everlasting fire because just feeling shame isn’t scary enough to sell anything.

What was I thinking? Oh that is right I was pointing out that Jesus treated Heaven and Hell like what they are…

gasp incidental

(I will be the first baptist to be excommunicated in my church for that one).

How could eternal life be “incidental?”

And he didn’t treat them as such.
[/quote]

Hell isn’t even dealt with as much money or wealth why would anyone think it was a huge focus of the Bible.

You never see the apostles preaching a turn of burn message. I am not saying they aren’t a focus of our day and time, but they certainly had a minimal play through out the NT world.

[ephrem]

[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
ephrem wrote:
ZEB wrote:

…muslims think the same way, and some are willing to die and kill to get their point across. Will you do the same?

I would point out the major difference:

[b]

Muslims: Muslims send their sons to die for Allah (by killing others).

Christians: God sent HIS son to die for sinners.

Big difference, my friend.[/quote]

…according to the fairytale, he never died. So where’s the sacrifice?

[ZEB]

[quote]haney wrote:
ZEB wrote:
haney wrote:
lothario1132 wrote:
pssstt! Haney!

Hell MUST be painful and horrible in all ways with everlasting fire because just feeling shame isn’t scary enough to sell anything.

What was I thinking? Oh that is right I was pointing out that Jesus treated Heaven and Hell like what they are…

gasp incidental

(I will be the first baptist to be excommunicated in my church for that one).

How could eternal life be “incidental?”

And he didn’t treat them as such.

Hell isn’t even dealt with as much money or wealth why would anyone think it was a huge focus of the Bible.

You never see the apostles preaching a turn of burn message. I am not saying they aren’t a focus of our day and time, but they certainly had a minimal play through out the NT world.

[/quote]

I think if you read Pauls books you will see a constant reference to “his reward.”

He did what he did daily to be with Christ in heaven.

Everytime he mentions being “saved” he is refering to being saved from hell.

In other words, while he did not get on a stump and speak at length of heaven and hell reference was constantly being made about both places.

[ZEB]

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…according to the fairytale, he never died. So where’s the sacrifice?

[/quote]

This is the type of lack of respect for another persons religion that Christians put up with daily!

[ZEB]

Flyying:

Hell is eternal torment!

(Luke 16:19-21).
"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham?s side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell [hades], where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ?Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.?

But Abraham replied, ?Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us? (Luke 16:22-26)."

It’s obviously a place. And in that place people survive in eternal torment. Forever…and ever!

[haney]

[quote]ZEB wrote:
I think if you read Pauls books you will see a constant reference to “his reward.”

He did what he did daily to be with Christ in heaven.

Everytime he mentions being “saved” he is refering to being saved from hell.

In other words, while he did not get on a stump and speak at length of heaven and hell reference was constantly being made about both places.

[/quote]

I disagree (big surprise). The after life just wasn’t a huge issue to the people of the Bible. Certainly not compared to war, famine, government justice, and many other topics.

The modern day church has had a much bigger focus on those topics.

Jesus as well as Paul, and all the other Apostles focus wasn’t on Heaven, or Hell. It was clearly on redemption with God.

Heaven is a reward of that justification (which would make it incidental), and not the point of being justified.

So Jesus taught be forgiven by God because he wants you to be forgiven.

Not Be forgiven so you get a mansion with a gold driveway.

[ZEB]

[quote]haney wrote:
ZEB wrote:
I think if you read Pauls books you will see a constant reference to “his reward.”

He did what he did daily to be with Christ in heaven.

Everytime he mentions being “saved” he is refering to being saved from hell.

In other words, while he did not get on a stump and speak at length of heaven and hell reference was constantly being made about both places.

I disagree (big surprise). The after life just wasn’t a huge issue to the people of the Bible. Certainly not compared to war, famine, government justice, and many other topics.

The modern day church has had a much bigger focus on those topics.

Jesus as well as Paul, and all the other Apostles focus wasn’t on Heaven, or Hell. It was clearly on redemption with God.

Heaven is a reward of that justification (which would make it incidental), and not the point of being justified.

So Jesus taught be forgiven by God because he wants you to be forgiven.

Not Be forgiven so you get a mansion with a gold driveway.[/quote]

I don’t entirely disagree with your premise. There are many topics of importance discussed in the Bible.

However, I think that you are down playing the essential nature of spreading the gospel which the disciples did.

And the afterlife was a good part of “the nature” of the gospel. There are many examples of this as I tried to allude to in my prior post.

Here are only two examples, there are many, many more:

When Paul wrote second Corinthians, he was facing overwhelming persecution. In 4:8-10 he says,

“We are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not despairing; persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed; always carrying about in the body the dying of Jesus, that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body.”

In verses 16-17 he says, "We do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is being renewed day by day. For momentary, light affliction is producing for us an eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison."

Paul is saying that whatever we endure in this life can’t be compared with the glory it’s producing in the life to come, which is of course Heaven!

Second example:

They were so very aware of Heaven that the mother of James and John asked Christ if He would allow her sons to sit on His left and right in the Kingdom of Heaven! Christ said that decision was the Father’s.

No, I think that there was a great deal of attention paid to Heaven and Hell. But, they were referred to in different ways. Sometimes in a matter of fact way. It was something that was known, and expected.

[haney]

[quote]ZEB wrote:

I don’t entirely disagree with your premise. There are many topics of importance discussed in the Bible.

However, I think that you are down playing the essential nature of spreading the gospel which the disciples did.
[/quote]

Not down playing it. I just trying to shed light on how the people of the day understood things vs. how we understand then.

And the afterlife was a good part of “the nature” of the gospel. There are many examples of this as I tried to allude to in my prior post.

Never said there weren’t they weren’t there. Just that the focus we have put on them isn’t the same as the people of that day and time.

Here are only two examples, there are many, many more:

When Paul wrote second Corinthians, he was facing overwhelming persecution. In 4:8-10 he says,

“We are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not despairing; persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed; always carrying about in the body the dying of Jesus, that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body.”

In verses 16-17 he says, "We do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is being renewed day by day. For momentary, light affliction is producing for us an eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison."

Paul is saying that whatever we endure in this life can’t be compared with the glory it’s producing in the life to come, which is of course Heaven!

Second example:

They were so very aware of Heaven that the mother of James and John asked Christ if He would allow her sons to sit on His left and right in the Kingdom of Heaven! Christ said that decision was the Father’s.

No, I think that there was a great deal of attention paid to Heaven and Hell. But, they were referred to in different ways. Sometimes in a matter of fact way. It was something that was known, and expected.

No disagreement when it comes to something that was understood by the people of that day and time.

That doesn’t mean that it is the all consuming focus of that day and time like it has become in ours.

The entire intention of this thread is an example.

compare this method to one in the NT and you will find a total different strategy that the apostles used.

Which is why I find this method of preaching the gospel repulsive in many ways.

You would be hard pressed to find a passage in the Bible were Jesus starts a message with a line similiar to turn or burn.

A gospel that is preached by praying on the fears of people is a weak gospel, and hardly is the message of the Bible.

I think you understood my use of the word incidental in my last post, and now have less of an issue with it.

Note that I am not ignoring the doctrines of either. I am only pointing out where I see it has become a corrupted weapon of the church.

[ZEB]

[quote]haney wrote:

The entire intention of this thread is an example.

compare this method to one in the NT and you will find a total different strategy that the apostles used.[/quote]

In all fairness you can’t compare any of us with people like “Paul” or “Peter.”

I saw the thread and I wanted to add to it. But I am probably never going to do a good enough job to impress a non-believer. Why? Because this is not really my job. I’m just a regular Joe who likes to post.

I wouldn’t look so closely at this particular thread in your denunciation.

You would be hard pressed to find a passage in the Bible were Jesus starts a message with a line similiar to turn or burn.

I’m not a big fan of this type of preaching myself. I think it pushes some away instead of closer. I think it’s partially due to the sort of times that we live in.

But, Jesus was very strong in his proclomations:

(Matthew 7:21-23:

"Not everyone who says to me, ?Lord, Lord,? will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only those who do the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ?Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?? Then I will tell them plainly, ?I never knew you. Away from me, you evil doers?"

You almost have to agree, that last part is pretty harsh!

In fact, Jesus was so harsh that Bertrand Russell once wrote:

“Jesus demonstrated ?vindictive fury against those people who would not listen to His preaching.? Moreover, Jesus? teaching that it is possible to sin against the Holy Spirit such that one is never forgiven ?has caused an unspeakable amount of misery in the world.? A kind person would never have unleashed such worries upon the world. Furthermore, Jesus took ?a certain pleasure in contemplating wailing and gnashing of teeth, or else it would not occur so often.”

Whether you agree with Russells comentary or not is unimportant.

The fact remains that as Jesus said “I came to divide, not to unite.”

A choice must be made and Jesus Christ made that very clear. And the way he did it was sometimes considered “in your face harsh.”

In fact, there is no doubt in my mind that if Jesus Christ were coming to earth for the first time today he would be hated with a passion, even more than Robertson or Falwell.

After all they havn’t killed either of those two preachers!

A gospel that is preached by praying on the fears of people is a weak gospel, and hardly is the message of the Bible.

That’s not THE message of the Bible, but it is certainly present! And it’s entirely needed.

“The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom” (Prov. 1:7).

“Like as a father pitieth his children, so the Lord pitieth them that fear Him” (Psalm 103:13).

“To this man will I (the Lord) look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word” (Isa. 66:2).

“Honor all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king” (I Pet: 2:17).

one more:

“For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness” (Romans 1:18).

Read more about Gods wrath, if you’re interested:

http://www.bible.ca/ef/expository-romans-1-18.htm

Man needs to be reminded that God is far more than what is depicted by Hollywood in shows like “Touched By An Angel.”

[quote]Note that I am not ignoring the doctrines of either. I am only pointing out where I see it has become a corrupted weapon of the church.

[/quote]

I understand.

[haney]

[quote]ZEB wrote:
haney wrote:

The entire intention of this thread is an example.

compare this method to one in the NT and you will find a total different strategy that the apostles used.

In all fairness you can’t compare any of us with people like “Paul” or “Peter.”

[/quote]

No but that isn’t the comparison I am making either. I am comparing what we teach vs. what they taught, and how they viewed things.

I saw the thread and I wanted to add to it. But I am probably never going to do a good enough job to impress a non-believer. Why? Because this is not really my job. I’m just a regular Joe who likes to post.

I wouldn’t look so closely at this particular thread in your denunciation.

This thread as provided a place for me to demonstrate a different view on this topic, and possibly have an intelectual conversation about a topic that I feel is very misunderstood by the modern church.

You would be hard pressed to find a passage in the Bible were Jesus starts a message with a line similiar to turn or burn.

I’m not a big fan of this type of preaching myself. I think it pushes some away instead of closer. I think it’s partially due to the sort of times that we live in.

I agree.

But, Jesus was very strong in his proclomations:

(Matthew 7:21-23:

"Not everyone who says to me, ?Lord, Lord,? will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only those who do the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ?Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?? Then I will tell them plainly, ?I never knew you. Away from me, you evil doers?"

I have seen this verse abused so much that its use here further proves that people tend to pick and choose verses to make a point. (no offense intended)

You almost have to agree, that last part is pretty harsh!

no disagreement there is a dividing line.

In fact, Jesus was so harsh that Bertrand Russell once wrote:

“Jesus demonstrated ?vindictive fury against those people who would not listen to His preaching.? Moreover, Jesus? teaching that it is possible to sin against the Holy Spirit such that one is never forgiven ?has caused an unspeakable amount of misery in the world.? A kind person would never have unleashed such worries upon the world. Furthermore, Jesus took ?a certain pleasure in contemplating wailing and gnashing of teeth, or else it would not occur so often.”

Whether you agree with Russells comentary or not is unimportant.

I don’t mostly because it is his opinion, and adious hoxley(sp?) a famed critic and antagonist of the faith said (paraphrase) That Christianity couldn’t of put thier hopes in a better entity then Christ. His demonstration of peace, love, and kindness for man kind was unequal

The fact remains that as Jesus said “I came to divide, not to unite.”

True, but that phrase meant something specific to the people He spoke to.

for instance the messianic jews of that day were looking for a king to unite them into on Israel again. So that phrase meant something to that people that might mean something totally different to you or me.
Careful what you read into a text.

A choice must be made and Jesus Christ made that very clear. And the way he did it was sometimes considered “in your face harsh.”

In fact, there is no doubt in my mind that if Jesus Christ were coming to earth for the first time today he would be hated with a passion, even more than Robertson or Falwell.

After all they havn’t killed either of those two preachers!

not really a debatable point.

A gospel that is preached by praying on the fears of people is a weak gospel, and hardly is the message of the Bible.

That’s not THE message of the Bible, but it is certainly present! And it’s entirely needed.

“The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom” (Prov. 1:7).

“Like as a father pitieth his children, so the Lord pitieth them that fear Him” (Psalm 103:13).

“To this man will I (the Lord) look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word” (Isa. 66:2).

“Honor all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king” (I Pet: 2:17).

one more:

“For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness” (Romans 1:18).

Presence though wasn’t the issue I was bringing up. It was interpretation, and abuse.

Read more about Gods wrath, if you’re interested:

Romans 1:18 - The Wrath of God

Man needs to be reminded that God is far more than what is depicted by Hollywood in shows like “Touched By An Angel.”

Not that I agree with the show but I don’t think the angry God is the right description either.

I personally God is love description mixed with a splash of even tempered judgement.

Note that I am not ignoring the doctrines of either. I am only pointing out where I see it has become a corrupted weapon of the church.

I understand.

good.

[ZEB]

[quote]haney wrote:
Not that I agree with the show but I don’t think the angry God is the right description either.

I personally God is love description mixed with a splash of even tempered judgement.[/quote]

I agree, but I think people today forget about the “judgement” part. In fact, some people want to focus totally on the “love” part. This seems to allow them to continue to live in their sin and still think that they are Godly people.

A good example:

Many on this very site like to quote Jesus saying to the men who want to stone the prostitute: “Let him without sin cast the first stone.”

They leave out the part where he then turns to the prostitute and says: “Go and sin no more!”

Nice talking with you,

Zeb

[steveo5801]

[quote]doogie wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
doogie wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:

Unfortunately, I don’t think he will take my call…

The email address of Pope Benedict XVI is benedictxvi@vatican.va.

Please let me have your email so I can send you a “bcc” of the email that I will send.

uh, not that I don’t trust you not to spam me until the end of time, but…

why don’t you copy and paste the email here for us all to enjoy?[/quote]

No problem.

I will take care of that later tonight or tomorrow…

By the way, I wouldn’t spam you or send you anything unauthorized via email. I am not like that.

[haney]

[quote]ZEB wrote:
haney wrote:
Not that I agree with the show but I don’t think the angry God is the right description either.

I personally God is love description mixed with a splash of even tempered judgement.

I agree, but I think people today forget about the “judgement” part. In fact, some people want to focus totally on the “love” part. This seems to allow them to continue to live in their sin and still think that they are Godly people.

A good example:

Many on this very site like to quote Jesus saying to the men who want to stone the prostitute: “Let him without sin cast the first stone.”

They leave out the part where he then turns to the prostitute and says: “Go and sin no more!”

Nice talking with you,

Zeb [/quote]

That is because people treat it like a get off the hook type of thing. I am saved so anything goes now.
If it is all about a relationship with God then you can’t treat it that way.
You do something wrong to someone, you ask for forgiveness and you don’t do it again. granted we all make mistakes, but it is much easier to forgive someone when they are trying to not wrong you then it is when they just don’t care.

Agreed
It is has been a nice exchange. I enjoy stretching my mind on these topics. I always learn something new.

[ephrem]

[quote]ZEB wrote:
ephrem wrote:

…according to the fairytale, he never died. So where’s the sacrifice?

This is the type of lack of respect for another persons religion that Christians put up with daily!
[/quote]

…it’s really alot like, “hate the sin, not the sinner”. The religion entitles you to fullfil your egoic desires, which is from a human standpoint totally understandable and i don’t judge you for it, but as far as the religion goes… it’s vile and utter garbage…

[harris447]

[quote]ZEB wrote:
ephrem wrote:

…according to the fairytale, he never died. So where’s the sacrifice?

This is the type of lack of respect for another persons religion that Christians put up with daily!
[/quote]

Why does religion have to be respected?

[ZEB]

[quote]ephrem wrote:
ZEB wrote:
ephrem wrote:

…according to the fairytale, he never died. So where’s the sacrifice?

This is the type of lack of respect for another persons religion that Christians put up with daily!

…it’s really alot like, “hate the sin, not the sinner”. The religion entitles you to fullfil your egoic desires, which is from a human standpoint totally understandable and i don’t judge you for it, but as far as the religion goes… it’s vile and utter garbage…
[/quote]

More insults and personal put downs!

You are not only not adding anything you are taking away.

As for hating the sin and loving the sinner that makes perfect sense. Would you have it the other way around?

Hmm…maybe you would.

(shaking head)

[ZEB]

[quote]harris447 wrote:
ZEB wrote:
ephrem wrote:

…according to the fairytale, he never died. So where’s the sacrifice?

This is the type of lack of respect for another persons religion that Christians put up with daily!

Why does religion have to be respected?
[/quote]

Even if we don’t agree with must at least show respect.

[Lorisco]

[quote]ZEB wrote:
harris447 wrote:
ZEB wrote:
ephrem wrote:

…according to the fairytale, he never died. So where’s the sacrifice?

This is the type of lack of respect for another persons religion that Christians put up with daily!

Why does religion have to be respected?

Even if we don’t agree with must at least show respect.
[/quote]

I’m surprised that you dignified harris’ sniping comment by answering it. It goes without saying (apparently except for harris) that respecting people means also respecting their beliefs. But frequently in the US that means respecting other beliefs as long as they aren’t Christians.

[ZEB]

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
ZEB wrote:
harris447 wrote:
ZEB wrote:
ephrem wrote:

…according to the fairytale, he never died. So where’s the sacrifice?

This is the type of lack of respect for another persons religion that Christians put up with daily!

Why does religion have to be respected?

Even if we don’t agree with must at least show respect.

I’m surprised that you dignified harris’ sniping comment by answering it. It goes without saying (apparently except for harris) that respecting people means also respecting their beliefs. But frequently in the US that means respecting other beliefs as long as they aren’t Christians.

Here we go again, crying persecution.

Once again, you’re 80% of the population in the US, and the largest religion in the world. Stop whining.[/quote]

No one is stating that we are a minority.

Right?

But there is a growing trend to verbally attack those who are “vocal” about their beliefs.

This is wrong.

[orion]

[quote]ZEB wrote:
harris447 wrote:
ZEB wrote:
ephrem wrote:

…according to the fairytale, he never died. So where’s the sacrifice?

This is the type of lack of respect for another persons religion that Christians put up with daily!

Why does religion have to be respected?

Even if we don’t agree with must at least show respect.
[/quote]

For you Zeb, yes, for what you believe in, no…

I?m sorry, but that time is over…

There are people out there justifying and doing all kinds of crazy shit because their holy book says so.

There is no distinction to be made between religious moderates or fundamentalists.

The distinction is between those who actually believe and the rest who believes in a watered down version of whatholybookever, and are able to convince themselves that their branch of superstition is a gospel of peace…

Religious Christians and Muslims have to kill. Leviticus, Deuteronomy, all Gods own words.

The rest, that simply ignore everything that does not fit into the fairy tale of their choice are actually non-believers.

If you can state things without evidence, I can dismiss them without evidence. See how quickly I can discard the Bible?

Sad, in a way…