[quote]ZEB wrote:
haney wrote:
Eternal punishment in my studies it always points to it being more of a shame thing, and not an actual fire pit.
haney, I have no idea what your studies are composed of but according to the Bible there’s a hell…and it’s about it being “hot” while at the same time “dark” and full of “torment.” I have no doubt that, as you suggest, there is shame involved as well,
Not a good place to spend a Saturday night, much less eternity.
HADES
NASB Concord. # 86- adhV, ou had?s; perh. from 1 (as a neg. pref.) and 7054 (1491a) (3708);Hades, the abode of departed spirits :-- Hades(10).
The Greek word “Hades” is translated into English as “Hades” 10 times in the New American Standard (NASB) and that is the ONLY way it is translated.
Matt 11:23 (NASB) "And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You shall descend to Hades; for if the miracles had occurred in Sodom which occurred in you, it would have remained to this day.
Matt 16:18 "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades shall not overpower it.
Luke 10:15 "And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will be brought down to Hades!
Luke 16:22 "Now it came about that the poor man died and he was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. 23 "And in Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 "And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue; for I am in agony in this flame.’ 25 "But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. 26 ‘And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, in order that those who wish to come over from here to you may not be able, and [that] none may cross over from there to us.’
Acts 2:27 Because Thou wilt not abandon my soul to Hades, Nor allow Thy Holy One to undergo decay.
Acts 2:31 he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that He was neither abandoned to Hades, nor did His flesh suffer decay.
Reve 1:18 and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.
Reve 6:8 And I looked, and behold, an ashen horse; and he who sat on it had the name Death; and Hades was following with him. And authority was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by the wild beasts of the earth.
Reve 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one [of them] according to their deeds.
14 And death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
From this little study of the Greek word, Hades, we learn this:
Hades is down (Luke 10:15)
Those in Hades are being tormented (Luke 16:23) in flames (vs 24.)
All dead do not go to Hades. Some go to “Abraham’s Bosom.”
(Luke 16:22, 25)
Once you are dead, there is nothing you can do about about your whereabouts. (Luke 16:26)
The soul (the conscious part of us) is what goes to Hades. (Acts 2:27.)
Jesus (who was dead but is now alive forever) has the keys of Hades. (Rev 1:18.)
The dead who are in Hades, will one day come out to be judged. (Rev 20:13)
Hades will be thrown into the lake of fire (Rev 20:14.)
LAKE OF FIRE
So what is this “lake of fire”? It is spoken of 5 times. Read those verses below.
NASB Concord. # 3041- limnh, hV limn?; from leib? (to pour); a lake :-- lake(11).
NASB Concord. # 4442 - pur, oV pur; a prim. word; fire :-- burning(2), fiery(2), fire(69).
Reve 19:20 (NASB) And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.
Reve 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Reve 20:14 And death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Rev 21:8 “But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part [will be] in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
From these we learn:
The “lake of fire” burns with brimstone (sulfur.) (Rev 19:20)
It is a place of torment “day and night forever”(Rev 20:10)
Going there is “the second death” (Rev 20:14)
Anyone whose name is not written in the Book of Life goes there!!! (Rev 20:15)
Those who commit bad sins go there, but then so do the cowardly and unbelieving! (Rev 21:8)
eternal…
Another passage sheds a little more light on the subject.
Matt 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels ; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me [nothing] to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44 "Then they themselves also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ 45 “Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 " And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
The fire is “eternal.” (Mt 25:41)
It was not prepared for man. It was prepared for the devil and his angels (demons.) (Mt 25:41)
The punishment is “eternal” (vs 46)
unquenchable…
Need more proof?
Mark 9:41 "For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because of your name as [followers] of Christ, truly I say to you, he shall not lose his reward. 42 "And whoever causes one of these little ones who believe to stumble, it would be better for him if, with a heavy millstone hung around his neck, he had been cast into the sea. 43 "And if your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire, 44 [where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.] 45 "And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than having your two feet, to be cast into hell, 46 [where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.] 47 "And if your eye causes you to stumble, cast it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes, to be cast into hell, 48 where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.
The fire never stops, it is “unquenchable”. (Mk 9:43,46,48)
There are also worms (maggots) which are involved in the torment, and they never stop either! (Mk 9:44,46,48) Yukkkk!!!
maggots…
Does the Old Testament describe this? You bet it does!!!
Isa 11 ‘Your pomp [and] the music of your harps Have been brought down to Sheol; Maggots are spread out [as your bed] beneath you, And worms are your covering.’
Isa 66:22 “For just as the new heavens and the new earth Which I make will endure before Me,” declares the Lord, "So your offspring and your name will endure. 23 “And it shall be from new moon to new moon And from sabbath to sabbath, All mankind will come to bow down before Me,” says the Lord. 24 “Then they shall go forth and look On the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm shall not die, And their fire shall not be quenched; And they shall be an abhorrence to all mankind.”
HELL
And what do you think about “hell” (Gehenna)? You know that the term came from a garbage dump where refuse was constantly burning. I think the idea conveyed is the constant burning (and maybe the stench). Read each time that Greek word is used in the scriptures and decide for yourself.
NASB Concord. # 1067 geenna, hV geenna; of Heb. origin 01516 and 02011 ; Gehenna, a valley W. and S. of Jer., also a symbolic name for the final place of punishment of the ungodly :-- hell(12).
The only 12 uses of gehenna are these:
Matt 5:22 (NASB) "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever shall say to his brother, ‘Raca,’ shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever shall say, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty [enough to go] into the fiery hell.
Matt 5:29 "And if your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out, and throw it from you; for it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 "And if your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off, and throw it from you; for it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to go into hell.
Matt 10:28 "And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt 18:8 "And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire. 9 "And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out, and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than having two eyes, to be cast into the fiery hell.
Matt 23:15 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel about on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.
Matt 23:33 "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how shall you escape the sentence of hell?
Mark 9:43 "And if your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire,
Mark 9:45 "And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than having your two feet, to be cast into hell…47 "And if your eye causes you to stumble, cast it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes, to be cast into hell,
Luke 12:4 "And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. 5 "But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who after He has killed has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!
James 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, the [very] world of iniquity; the tongue is set among our members as that which defiles the entire body, and sets on fire the course of [our] life, and is set on fire by hell.
Hell is fiery (Mt 5:22)
The fire is “eternal” and it is “hell”. It is so bad that it would be better to cut off a part of your body to avoid going there. (Mt 5:29-30; 18:8-9; Mk 9:43-48) Does that sound like “the grave” to you?
Hell is for the soul as well as the body. (Mt 10:28)
Some people are sentenced to hell (Mt 23:33)
They are then cast into hell. (Mk 9:45,47)
Those who only kill the body do not cast anyone into hell; they merely cast someone into their grave. Only the Lord has the authority to cast a person into hell. (Luke 12:4)
ABYSS
There is another place called the abyss. It is also called the bottomless pit. It seems to be a location inside the earth, or something, and may possibly be the same as hades, but it is definitely different from the lake of fire. If you are interested, look up these references to the abyss: Luke 8:31; Romans 10:7; Rev 9:1,11;11:7;17:8;20:1
You will find out…
Demons don’t want to go there. (Lk 8:31)
Presumably, no one can go there, or perhaps no one can go there and get back out on his own accord. (Rom 10:7)
It is down, and Jesus was there. (Rom 10:7)
It is in the earth, and is locked with a key which an angel has. (Rev 9:1)
It has smoke (and where there’s smoke…) (Rev 9:2)
It has a King (Rev 9:11) and locust-like demons (see vs 3-10)
A beast comes out of it to kill the two witnesses. (Rev 11:7)
Then he (he is identified as Antichrist here) goes to destruction (Rev 17:8)
Satan is chained up here for 1000 years (Rev 20:1-3)
In looking over all of these scriptures, I’m sure you can see why most teach that some people are being tormented in Hades even as we speak, but other people are in Paradise or Abraham’s bosom. However, there is no one in the Lake of Fire yet. People will go there after their judgment, and we will all be judged. “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.” 2 Cor 5:10
The truth is, none of us are “good enough” to stand before a Holy God. No matter how “good” we are, no matter how hard we try, “all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment” Isa 64:6. That is why the sinless Lamb of God, Jesus, had to be sacrificed, in our place, so that we would have a means to escape the fate of hell, which was originally intended only for the devil and his demons.
[/quote]
I am not arguing the scripture descriptions as it being a place of fire or torment. I am more or less in a belief that it is composed of only one component. You are also taking the scripture an assuming that its terms/parables mean the same thing to you that they did to the society that Jesus was speaking to.
Complete and total seperation from God.
That seperation would manifest itself in feeling of shame that fit well with the descriptions on
Fire
Maggots
unquenchable
demons wouldn’t want to go there
All relating to the emence shame of knowing you had the chance to repent and be with God.
I like this article on shame/honor
"The application of honor and shame to this issue leads to another area of great sensitivity, for which we also find some new answers: Is it really fair for one who does not accept Jesus to suffer in Hell forever?
Several authors, some used by Glenn Miller in his series here, have set the pace for a new look at this question by dismantling the old-fashioned conception of Hell as a place of flesh being seared on sizzling grids, of torture devices and of extreme physical pain. In contrast Miller argues – even apparently without recognition of the Biblical world as an honor and shame society – that the components of eternal punishment in the Bible are shame and disgrace. Let’s now look at some of his primary points and relate them to our own arguments:
The ‘logic’ of hell in the bible is surprisingly simple: You receive back the treatment/effects you gave other agents (including God and yourself) with some kind of multiplier effect. [The bible is full of images of this reciprocity concept: reaping what you sow, being paid back, suffering loss as you had despoiled others, unkindness for unkindness shown, apathy for apathy rendered, ‘eye for an eye’, proportional judgement, etc] This is suited as well to what we have said of honor debts and shame as a response. You dishonor God; you receive dishonor in return. Appropriately your required response is to acknowledge your own need – in effect, giving up your “honor” – by admitting that you need God’s help to pay the debt.
C. S. Lewis wrote a book titled The Great Divorce in which Hell is depicted as a microscopic world that is smaller than a piece of dirt in heaven (though inhabitants do not realize this except by a special “bus trip” to heaven). Within that microscopic world, people constantly get tired of the company of others and move themselves farther and farther out into the “boondocks” away from others. Napoleon is presented as having done this, and two modern travellers who go to his house arrive to find him pacing back and forth muttering over his failures, for which he blames everyone else. Lewis, we think, was on to something here, even though he did not mention an honor-shame dialectic. The person who is ashamed cannot come into the presence of God, but would indeed be driven away from it by the very nature of the dialectic, seeking to get as far away from the presence of the greatest glory and honor as possible. Literally speaking, “Hell” would be a life on the lam – always trying to get yourself further and further from God’s holiness, but because God is omnipresent, and because in Him all things move and have their being, never being able to succeed.
An analogy I once used for my Skeptical friend Kyle Gerkin may help: God is like a magnet, and the “polarity” of sinners is all wrong.
Miller cites sources indicating that the torment of hell is relational in nature and involves banishment from heaven. A source says, though again apparently without knowledge of the Biblical world as agonistic: Mental and physical anguish result from the sorrow and shame of the judgment of being forever relationally excluded from God, heaven, and so forth.
In this sense, someone with greater sins has more to “be ashamed of” than someone with lesser sins. Thus the lesser sinner may perhaps be able to withstand God’s omnipresence to a greater degree than a greater sinner; to put it another way, the person who has greater sins finds themselves to run harder, more often, and farther than the person with lesser sins.
Biblical passages support our thesis: Daniel 12:2 speaks not of everlasting pain, but of disgrace and everlasting contempt. The “weeping and gnashing of teeth” associated with punishment verses “describes a reaction of persons who have been publicly shamed or dishonored” (Malina and Rohrbaugh, Social Science Commentary, 76, emphasis added). Miller says of the passage in Luke, of the beggar Lazarus and the rich man: [The rich man’s] “quality of life” is equated to the quality of life that the beggar Lazarus had during his lifetime (e.g. lack of getting all of his basic needs met in community). Note that a beggar was a person of the lowest social status, and therefore one of the most “shamed” individuals.
We may relate this point to that of the doctrine of theosis. Those who belong to God will grow in His grace; but those who reject him will never grow. Like Lewis’ Napoleon, this will no doubt be a frustrating and shameful experience; especially if you can look through the window, so to speak, and see others growing. But it will not involve physical pain.
A reader asked this question: I gathered from your response to Pendragon that the Jeffery Dahmer, who apparently repented before that unfortunate encounter with a mop handle, would be in the ?nosebleed section? in heaven. Why would that be if Christ suffered the shame for everyone who is saved? I think the answer here relates to the concept of rewards in heaven as opposed to salvation. The rewards will be rewards of honor; obviously someone like Dahmer isn’t going to have a lot of rewards, and nor would an Adolf Hitler who repented on his deathbed. So yes, to say they will be in the “nosebleed section” of heaven would be accurate.
So in conclusion on this tangent: The data would indicate that the primary focus of eternal punishment is the denial of the honor accorded to those who reject God’s offer of salvation, and who bear themselves the shame and disgrace Jesus took in their stead. Therefore there is no inequality in the “suffering” – these persons have denied God His ascribed honor; they are denied in turn the honor that is given to human beings, who are created with the intent that they live forever in God’s service, reigning with Christ and serving him. They choose rather the shame and disgrace of serving their own interests; they are also shamed in accordance with their deeds (i.e., Hitler obviously has more to be “ashamed of” than, say, a robber baron). By denying their ascribed place in the collective identity of humanity, they are placed outside the boundaries, excatly as they desire to be and to the extent that their deeds demanded."
http://www.tektonics.org/uz/2muchshame.html
I am sure you will take issue with it. I am fine with that.
