Thanks for the translation of Jesus.
Makes you wonder what else has been changed over time, just because someone wanted it so.
I despair for all religious people, and if i had a magical room with a magical person to send them to “get sorted”, then i would.
But i dont.
Maybe i should make one up.
like the FSM.
or the like.
You should be happy i will burn in hell. If heaven is full of sanctamonious individuals like yourselves, i would be asking for a passport out, anyway.
[quote]JPBear wrote:
lothario:
If we are nothing but random physical beings, which ended up here by accident, how can you claim that goodness and kindness towards others is better than self centered pursuits? Maybe you get more joy from having friends than you do from feeding the desires of your flesh, but not everyone does. If there is no external moral standard, then things wouldn’t be morally good or bad, they would just be different.[/quote]
Science is the process of trying an experiment and observing the results. I have lived my life by this concept, and have come to the quite obvious conclusion that I get much much more out of my life if I am engaged in helpfulness and happiness than otherwise. I have been self-destructive and selfish at times and it didn’t work out for me. Common sense tells me to continue selfless pursuits… for their own sake, if nothing else.
Do you know what it feels like to help somebody in need? To exceed the expectations of others? It feels pretty damn good, doesn’t it? I like seeing smiles on other people’s faces. Here’s one from me to you… 
There is an order in the deepest kind of chaos. Large unbound systems which are given enough time will order themselves naturally. This is completely normal and the way of the universe. Realize this, and it’s okay to believe in yourself.
[quote]You people (I know, that’s bad to say) are driving me crazy! How can you look at the world around you and not see the very obvious fact that there had to have been a creator?
[/quote]
The only creator we have is the process of cause and effect. I was created because I was my father’s fastest sperm (Too bad it wasn’t the smartest one, huh?), and he was gettin’ him some at the time.
BUT
By definition, there was such a thing as the “first cause”. You could personify this thing by calling it the “prime mover” or whatever, but there is no need to worship such a thing as it is long gone. What we have now is each other to care for. Better to live in the now instead of dwelling on the past.
And here’s another smile for you.
Ah, proof of a creator.
I love this.
Just like a worm in Africa that will burrow into a childs eye at 5 years old, making him/her blind for life in a country with no support for the disabled.
Surely a sign from the creator.
Really, perspective is a funny old thing, isn’t it?
[quote]LBRTRN wrote:
ephrem wrote:
…many, many people have found peace without the help of religion, and they don’t need to be told that they need religion inspite of that. Just leave me be, and i’ll grant you the same respect. Deal?
I’m curious: I see something to this effect said in nearly every thread dealing with the topic of religion: “Stop trying to shove your religion down my throat!” is usually the battle cry. I respect that sentiment, as do most Christians. I don’t think Christianity is something that should be shoved down one’s throat; it simply isn’t very effective.
However, I find it odd that upon seeing a thread titled, “Post Here To Accept Jesus,” some of you felt the need to not only read it but also felt the need to chastise the OP for his “Bible thumping.” If you want to tell him his interpretaion of the Bible is wrong, fine; if you want to tell him there is no God, fine; however, don’t tell him he has no right to proselytize. He didn’t force anyone to read his thread.
Unless he is PMing everyone than he hasn’t “forced” anything on anyone. No one here is part of a captive audience–simply click on that little “x” in the upper right hand corner and be done with it.
[/quote]
…you are right ofcourse, if religious zeal did not pervade many aspects of non religious peoples lives, then it wouldn’t matter. If the religious mindset of this kind would be confined to the forumboards of internet, then you’d be right…
…however, that same mindset interferes with the everyday lives of many people: abortion doctors just doing their work, the gay couple who have been together for 20 years and can’t get married, grieving parents who are psychologically tormented at their son’s funeral by religious nuts…
…beit christianity or islam, the same backward and stagnant mindset has a great influence on society, and if standing up for reason and logic on a forum board is what is left for alot of people to speak against it, against better judgment mind you, than so be it…
[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
ephrem wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
ephrem wrote:
…religion = fairytales for adults…
Sky = purple
Does it make it true that I said it?
Of course not. Objective truth is truth no matter what WE wish to believe about it.
…the sky is verifiably blue, i’m looking at a blue sky right now. That’s not the issue, is it? Why would you believe at all if objective truth is truth not matter what? Why do so many christian factions exist, and why do they disagree on what to believe?
…no, religion ?s a fairytale for adults, and there’s nothing wrong with that. If you’ve found peace through what you believe, then that is great. I’ve found peace too, but that had nothing to do with beliefs or religion, how difficult is that for you to understand?
…many, many people have found peace without the help of religion, and they don’t need to be told that they need religion inspite of that. Just leave me be, and i’ll grant you the same respect. Deal?
So, if I passed by and saw you in a burning car, but you didn’t believe it was on fire, I should just pass you by and leave you alone?
What kind of monster would I be…
[/quote]
…as usual you’ve got it backwards. YOU believe the car is on fire, when there’s nothing wrong with the car. YOU are fighting imaginary flames when everything is in order. Ofcourse you have the right to believe anything you want, and i have to right to speak out against it…
…objectivity means that something is the same for everyone, without exception. There are a couple of things true for everyone without exception: we need air, water and food to sustain ourselves. The realm of beliefs is utterly subjective, for many people live happy and productive lifes without your god. When you understand that and realise faith and religion is a personal undertaking, perhaps you’ll find the peace of mind many of us already have without religion…
[quote]JPBear wrote:
lothario:
If we are nothing but random physical beings, which ended up here by accident, how can you claim that goodness and kindness towards others is better than self centered pursuits? Maybe you get more joy from having friends than you do from feeding the desires of your flesh, but not everyone does. If there is no external moral standard, then things wouldn’t be morally good or bad, they would just be different.[/quote]
…how do you know that goodness and kindness aren’t self centered pursuits? You are right you know, there is no external moral standard, what we have are agreements based upon what is best for the survival of the species. There agreements come from an survival instinct and not from god…
…yes, exactly! That could be daunting for most, but once you surrender to this not-knowing and accept doubt, what you are left with is resounding peace. A clear bell…
…because a belief in a creator does not enhance the beauty of our universe. The universe exists, this i know. Whether a creator exist is unknown and especially believing does not make it so. Why would i attribute the wonders of the universe to an imaginary creator?
[quote]JPBear wrote:
If we are nothing but random physical beings, which ended up here by accident, how can you claim that goodness and kindness towards others is better than self centered pursuits? Maybe you get more joy from having friends than you do from feeding the desires of your flesh, but not everyone does. If there is no external moral standard, then things wouldn’t be morally good or bad, they would just be different.[/quote]
May I butt-in for a moment again?
(same disclaimer as before applies here: don’t take this as an insult to your intelligence ? it’s just that as a science professor I can’t help but blurt out science every chance I get)
There is plenty of scientific evidence to support the theory that moral standards are a product of Evolution. One of the most obvious pieces of evidence is that a lot of other animals – including all primates – have similar standards; in fact, Humans and other animals share a whole heritage of tendencies, including cooperation and repayment of favors (which drive goodness and kindness towards others, even if at a subconscious level).
Another piece of evidence is that moral standards are remarkably similar between different major faiths, including the ones that only had contact with each other in the past couple of centuries ? but differ on specific aspects that were “amazingly” convenient for the survival of the species in THAT specific environment.
Behavioral economics (among other currents of thought) greatly support what lothario is claiming: that those moral standards are very much in self-interest, even if it’s long term. The physical response one has when doing a good deed (that lothario described) is also a product of Evolution and is greatly responsible for the success of all species that present similar characteristics. Some compare it to the pleasure that we experience during sex, i.e., it’s a mechanism to provide an incentive to a behavior that got “selected in” because it was necessary for the survival of the species – humans who experienced that pleasure were more likely to adopt the associated behavior, hence survive longer, be more successful and have more kids, propagating the gene that drives it.
Of course, as all innate behaviors, they are not universal to all members of a species; the fragility of DNA, and the susceptibility to conditioning create diversity of behaviors – but there is a fundamental, innate moral core in most advanced mammals, a group of which we are just one member among many.
To put it in just one sentence: yes, goodness and kindness towards others are in fact in our best self-interest, and are innate behaviors that we share with many other species and allowed our survival (i.e., without it, we would have fallen victim to extinction through natural selection).
Based on this, one can easily define as “morally good” what improves our quality of life / chances of survival and as “morally bad” what doesn’t – or, rather, what reduces our quality of life / chances of survival.
“Amazingly”, that definition has been shown to yield exactly the same results as the codes of morality defended in Holy Scriptures.
What does this all mean?
The theory goes like this:
We basically are what we are (in spite of being a product of randomness) because we could not be any different or we wouldn’t exist by now.
I think the reason people have such problems believing this is possible through randomness is that it is hard to grasp the numbers involved – it is hard to grasp how old the Universe is, and how many stars there are.
A well-known metaphor that helps understand how this can be possible is the monkey theorem:
A monkey hitting keys at random on a typewriter keyboard will eventually type out the collected works of William Shakespeare.
Of course, this is all theory and I can?t prove beyond any doubt that this wasn?t all the product of a Higher Power, but hey, you were the one who asked how can an alternative, atheist, explanation exist – it does, and it’s not rocket science…
[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
If I misrepresned what you said – “living in the moment” and not “living for the moment,” I apologize. However, my response is the same since God’s Word teaches that life now – in the moment – is to prepare for eternity. If all I ever did was live “in the moment,” I would not think of eternity and therefore who would bother with salvation and the things of God. Who needs salvation from eternal hellfire if all you do is “live and think in the moment?”
EXACTLY.
There is no such thing as forever, steveo. Your life, and all life… even the universe itself is transient and inconstant. [/quote]
That is only your belief . You can choose to believe this, but you must realize that unlike Christian belief which is based upon the Word of God, your belief here is made up out of your head.[quote]
This is the way of the universe – that there is a beginning and an end. Even the sun will someday die, steveo. Realizing this is paying homage to honesty. These are the REAL rules we all must follow whether we like it or not, and anybody who tells you diffently from what your own eyes can plainly see is trying to sell you something. [/quote]
Who told you that “all there is is just all you can see?” Who told you that? Just becuase it seems that all there is is all you can see, doesn’t mean that there isn’t something else --we are eternal beings with an eternal destiny. Perhaps it has to do with another dimension – but alas that is where FAITH comes in! This really is all about faith. My faith, and hence my eternal destiny, I have placed into the hands of the God of Israel – the God of the Bible. You, obviously, have placed your eternity on just what YOU can see.
I’ll take God…[quote]
The sum total of your argument is that you are a humanist. Now I know that you didn’t actually use that word, but before you flame my use of it, consider what you said. All of your statements are how YOU have DONE GOOD THINGS and encourage others to do good things. The Bible teaches that "all of our works are like filthy rags in His [God’s] sight. In other words, while God does want us to be good to others and to “esteem others better than ourselves,” if we are doing good to think we will impress God, then those works amount to zero in God’s sight.
Okay. But selfless acts to make yourself look good to some God are still missing the point. The point is that there is no supernatural God to impress in the first place.[/quote]
Again, can we agree that this is only your opinion, your belief? . Why do you get to be dogmatic, while scolding me for doing the same. Again, my faith system comes from the objective reality of God’s Word. Your belief system only comes from your head through your eyes. Not very reliable, I say. [quote]
We do good works for the sake of what good they do. The acts themselves, the feeling of satisfaction of doing them, and the good consequences from doing them are the reward.[/quote]
You twist what I said. I DID NOT say that Christians do good works only for the sake of going to heaven or for a reward. Good works should flow from a believer because, since our hearts have been transformed by God, we want to do good for others. That doesn’t mean that unbelievers cannot do good. Either way, cannot get anyone into Heaven, because we cannot be perfect which is the standard. . Jesus Christ was the only perfect human being – following God’s Law completely and perfectly, and thus could be the only one who could pay for our sins. [quote]
Let me get this straight: not only is Christianity weird in the fact that it is based on fantasy, [/quote] again, only YOUR OPINION with no objective truth to back it up [quote] it eschews common sense even further by pissing on the idea of doing good for its own sake. I mean, I could see how it would be so much nicer and make more sense if what you said was the exact opposite. You should be REQUIRED to do good works to get into heaven… kind of like earning your place in paradise, so to speak. That would make more sense.[/quote]
See my comments right above this. Again, just because something makes “common sense” to us, doesn’t mean that it is God’s way. In Isaiah, God says that "my ways are not your ways and my thoughts are not your thoughts. For as the heavens are higher than the Earth, my ways are higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.
We are the creature – God is the Creator. Our knowledge, which is impressive, is very very limited. We need special revelation through God’s Word to understand the things of God. Even thus, we have limited knowledge of only what God has chosen to reveal. That doesn’t make Him or His ways not real, it only makes us dependent upon Him – which is what I think you and most people chafe against. [quote]
The fact is that I didn’t make the rules up – our Creator did. God makes the rules – I just preach them to people.
Finally, you say about Christianity…
“It represents everything mean about our existence here. Fear, insularism, intolerance, deceit… shall I continue?”
Really? Following Jesus Christ represents everything “mean?”
Yes. Indirectly. What I was getting at was giving up on reality and being afraid of oblivion enough to buy into some supernatural pyramid scheme is the face of cowardice. Maybe that’s too strong of a word.
Let me ask you something. When was the last time you heard of a born-again believer murder someone? Rob a bank? Blow up a train? Swindle someone out of their life savings?
I’m just going to go party-line stuff here to explain myself to you… I make no presumptions about what you personally voted for or against, or what personal views about these issues you actually hold, okay?
Yes, when a man contridicts God with no proof , yes then the man is wrong. Darwinism cannot be proved – it is a religious belief in effect. If you choose to believe it you are taking Darwin on Faith.
You take Darwin, I’ll take God! Any day, any time! [quote]
Absolutely. Sodomy is a sin. The Bible says so, and even “common sense” says so. It wasn’t until the last 20 years where people with your type of opinions came to the fore. What changed? God’s rules? The Bible? No, people’s opinions’ have changed because you have been indoctrinated into the ways of man. If we came from random processes and are thus unaccountable to the Divine, then I guess “anything goes.” Sin is still sin, whether or not you want to call it thus. If “gays” wish to marry, great. We the people don’t have to sanction this. [quote]
Deceit? Where is the deciet? If the Bible says that people are sinners and they will go to Hell without Christ, that’s what God says. No deciet – just His truth.
This is the deceit. This is the great sell.[/quote]
Yes it would be deceit, unless the Book was written by someone who knows the beginning from the end. In other words, unless the book was written by God, which is exactly what we have in the bible. [quote]
Shall I tell you a secret? I know what it’s like to be dead. I was dead for countless eons – and I do mean countless – billions of them. And then I was born. Someday, maybe real soon, I will return to oblivion and not ever know that I was alive. I will know nothing at all, because I am gone. No pain, no joy, no nothing. The only way that my life will have meant anything at all will be predicated upon how I left the world for those who come after me.
All we have is now. This is simple common sense, steveo. If you choose to lie to yourself and think differently, then that is your choice. The funny thing is that you won’t even have a chance to be disappointed that there isn’t an afterlife. :)[/quote]
Now that is what Satan (yes the Devil is real) would like for you to believe. One moment after you die,however, you will know that this was a lie.
Hopefully, you will come to salvation before it is too late. You don’t know it all – you just think you do. God knows all since He created it all.
Come to Jesus today!
…these people have the same mindset any fundamentalist believer has. They cannot be swayed for their beliefs are the core of their selfimage, and that selfimage is the core of their existence. Only a few are able to break free from those shackles, but for most it is a prison they like to be in. It is a pity though that they want other’s to be in that prison too…
[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
That is only your belief . You can choose to believe this, but you must realize that unlike Christian belief which is based upon the Word of God, your belief here is made up out of your head.
[/quote]
…now this is unbelievable ((-: Belief is belief, no matter how you label it, Steve. That you can write this with a straight face is pretty impressive…
Steveo,
Sadly for you, there is no such thing as the “word of God”. What we do have is the writings of men on the subject of God and their interpretation of how we should live according to God.
Until you can wedge that realization into your head you will continue to be a clueless fanatic.
Never, in all of history, has mankind been able to get a story right. After thousands of years of advancement in education, in understanding, in science, in social theory, in economy, we still can’t do it.
I already know your answer, but how in all reality can you expect the rigid thinking brutal survivalist relatively uneducated people of the era that existed several thousand years ago to have the ability to interpret and right something so complex with complete accuracy.
They couldn’t. The Bible is full of parables and stories, in attempts to illustrate things. Since they didn’t have tape recorders, if you accept that they were witnesses, you are still left with years of time passing between the events that took place and the writings that eventually were conducted.
It’s not like they had laptops and printing presses at the time.
Even today, people are always looking for “the best” or “the right” way to do something. Of course there would be a documentation of “the way” to live. Many cultures have this… and as others have mentioned they are very similar across cultures. However, they all have their own book, prophet or whatnot.
I know you are very desparate in your need to hold onto some truth such as this, because without it you will be lost, as you obviously are not very able to think for yourself.
If you are granted comfort by your beliefs, that is fine. However, your beliefs are simply your beliefs. Trying to dress your beliefs up in fancy robes and ultimate importance is just aggrandizement, whether you realize it or not.
Several thousand years ago the Bible was a model of advanced thinking capable of moving the world forward. However, whenever a fanatical interpretation of the Bible is accepted you end up with the ability to support attrocities against other groups of people in the name of God.
Quite honestly, as you might expect from a relatively naive people, from several thousand years ago, on a planet that had much more open space available to everyone, the Bible (as do the other similar religious documents) starts to fall down under the realities on the planet today – at least if you grasp it fanatically and brandish it upon people who are not of similar belief.
God gave you a mind, I think it would be a mortal sin for you not to learn how to use it before you die… hurry up brother, your time is running out.
Steveo, JPBear,
An honest question for the both of you…
In the past, there have been things that have been done that were horrendous and mistaken. A good example that comes to mind is witch trials and burnings.
These things actually happened.
They were done by people who believed they were doing God’s work. They believed in Christianity and they thought they were fighting an evil, in the name of God no less.
There is no argument about it, these things happened.
Now, to be honest, I would think that you would also judge witch burnings as “evil” would you not? Surely, killing people because they are suspected of witchcraft, through painful and horrible means, qualifies as an “evil”?
So, as fundamentalists, I pose this question to you. How can you claim that a religion is the perfect unadulterated word of God if such mistakes and such “evil” can be conducted by honest believers in honest good faith?
Be clear, I am not arguing against religion, or against God, but that the writings of man are an interpreted work and hence obviously contain flaws. These flaws have been the cause of abuse, errors and outright evil from time to time, all conducted in the name of God.
Honestly, when you revere the Bible itself as the “Word of God”, when it was in fact written by men, you commit idolatry, raising the Bible to the level of God… and this is something you are expressly not allowed to do.
The Bible contains a lot of important and wonderful information and guidance for us to follow, but it should not be raised to a level of reverence on it’s own right, because when that is done it can become a tool of evil.
I see idolatry and aggrandizement in these threads… and I make the effort to warn you of the error of your ways, just like a Christian should.
Isn’t that interesting…
[Edit: It’s mother’s day, and I have to go spend time with family, so I’m done blathering for while.]
Furthermore, I would go so far as to say that perhaps the reason we have such powerful minds is precisely so that we can personally make our own judgements of right and wrong.
Ceding that judgement to another person, via words, writing, the Bible, is an abrogation of your responsibility to use the gifts God gave to you in your time here.
Again, the Bible contains a lot of good information, perhaps I’d liken it to a guide or roadmap, but I cannot abide by the fundamental interpretation of it, the fact is is misused to great evil, that fact that fundamental literal followers of it can be lead to great evil, or that it is used to discount our own powers of interpretation and judgement as granted to us.
Your path should be YOUR path… you that preech so loud do not even follow your own path, instead you have shrouded yourself in the protective covers of a set of rules in an attempt to protect yourselves from having to determine your own course using your own intelligence and reason.
Of course, you will disagree with me as surely as I disagree with you… that is what personal belief is about. The difference is, as long as you don’t preech to me, I don’t give a rats ass what you believe – just realize it is personal and stop spewing your nonsense to others.
Yeah, yeah, I know, I’m spewing mine… but only because of this Damned thread.
Why are you guys even arguing with these idiots?
They’re grown adults believe in fairy tales and magic.
Were it not for the fact that millions of other people share their delusions, they would be put in mental hospitals.
[quote]vroom wrote:
[Edit: It’s mother’s day, and I have to go spend time with family, so I’m done blathering for while.][/quote]
Surely it’s not that time consuming to walk up the stairs from the basement?
Sorry, Vroom, couldn’t resist!
You know you and me is bro’s, right homey?
[quote]harris447 wrote:
Why are you guys even arguing with these idiots?
They’re grown adults believe in fairy tales and magic.
Were it not for the fact that millions of other people share their delusions, they would be put in mental hospitals.[/quote]
There, the ultimate judge of right and wrong, truth and falsehood, has spoken! (He even did so without vulgarity!) All hail the mighty Harris, for he knows all and sees all!!
“Tramp ye upon those vile bibles! Use the pages for toilet paper, for I, the all-knowing Harris, have spoken!!”
HH
hspder,
I don’t have time today to read all the replies since I posted last night. (I knew this would happen if I broke my own rule about just preaching the gospel and letting things be).
All I can say is that none of the observations and hypotheses that you presented even begin to explain the questions I asked.
You just raise more questions, such as where did this drive to live come from? Who says that life is good and that any species should go on? You could argue that a virus has the same drive to survive. If life and survival are the only absolutes, why do we as humans feel so right when we kill a virus? Are we not just different forms? And what has caused countless dictators over history to kill so many people? What was driving them? Will goodness eventually spread to all people? And if the root cause of goodness is the desire to protect self, why are we ever concerned when strangers practice self destructive behaviors?
I can’t remember if it was you who gave the monkey at the keyboard argument, but here is my answer to that. First of all, you are beginning with a monkey, a keyboard, and an end product that you have previously determined to be good - the collected works of Shakespeare. In evolution, in the beginning, you have a whole lot of nothing mixed with a bunch more nothing. So the argument makes no sense. Even if one was to overlook these things, the argument is still flawed. Perhaps all the right letters would eventually be typed, but they would not be ordered. You would need a greater intelligence to come and order the letters. Now, if you could claim that a monkey would eventually produce the ordered works of Shakespeare, then you would be on to something.
[quote]JPBear wrote:
doogie wrote:
JPBear wrote:
LBRTRN,
When I think about all the prophecies in Isaiah and the psalms describing the life and death of Jesus so accurately,
They don’t make since unless you’ve already accepted them as true. They don’t come close to Nostradomus quality.
Why don’t you check them out? Here are just 50 of the 300 fulfilled prophesies:
Birth and childhood:
1- The “seed of a woman”: Genesis 3:15… Galatians 4:4.
2- Descendent of Abraham: Genesis 12:3, 18:18… Acts 3:25, Matthew 1:1.
3- Descendent of Isaac: Gen.17:19, Luc.3:34.
4- Descendent of Jacob: Numbers 24:17… Luke 3:34, Matt.1:2.
5-- From the Tribe of Judah: Genesis 49:10, Luke 3:33.
6- Heir of the Throne of David: Isaiah 9:7… Luke 1:32-33.
7- Born in Bethlehem: Micah 5:2… Matthew 2:1… Luke 2:4-7.
8- To be born of a Virgin: Isaiah 7:14, Matthew 1:18… Luke 1:26-35.
9- Time of his birth: Daniel 9:25… Luke 2:1:
10- Slaughter of the Innocent children: Jeremiah 31:15… Matthew 2:16-18.
11- Flight to Egypt: Hosea 11:1… Matthew 2:14-15.
12- He shall be called a Nazarene: Judges 13:5… Matthew 2:23.
Passion:
13- Triumphal entry in Jerusalem on a donkey: Zechariah 9:9… John 12:13-14.
14- Entry through the “Golden Gate”, that shall be shut for ever after his entrance: Ezekiel 44:1-2… Mark 11:7-8.
15- Betrayed by a friend, for 30 pieces of silver: Zechariah 11:12, Psalm 41:9…
16- Money to be returned for a potter’s field: Zechariah 11:13… Matthew 27:6-7.
17- Judas’s position to be taken by another: Psalm 109:7-8… Acts 1:18-20.
18- Accused by false witnesses: Psalms .27:12, 35:11… Mt 26:60-61, Mk.14:57.
19- Silent to accusations: Isaiah 53:7… Matthew 26:62-63, Mark.15:4-5.
20 - Spat and struck: Isaiah 50:6, Matthew 26:67.
21- Hated without reason: Psalms 69:4, 35:19, 109:3-5… John.15:24-25
22- Soldiers divided his garments and gambled for his clothing: Psalm 22:18… Matt.27:35 (2 Prophecies)
23- Crucified, “pierced through hands and feet”: Zechariah 12:10, Psalm 22:16… Matthew 27:35, John 20:27
24- Crucified with malefactors: Isaiah 53:12… Mark 15:27-28.
25- Agonized in Thirst: Psalm 22:15… John 19:28.
26- Given gall and vinegar: Psalm 69:21… Matthew 27:34, 48, John 19:19.
27- No bones broken: Psalm 34:20… John 19:32-36.
28- His side pierced: Zechariah 12:10… John 19:34.
29- Deserted by God: Psalm 22:1… Matthew 27:46.
30- Vicarious Sacrifice: Isaiah 53:4-5, 6, 12… Matthew 8:16-17, Romans 4:25, 5:6-8, 1 Corinthians 15:3.
31- Buried with the rich: Isaiah 53:9, Matthew 27:57-60.
32- Deserted by his followers: Zechariah 13:7… Mark 14:27
33- Time of his death: Daniel 9:25… Luke 2:1, Matthew 2:1:
34- Resurrection of Jesus: Hosea 6:2, Psalms 16:10, 49:15… Luke 24:6-7, Mark.16:6-7.
35- Other dead raised with Him: Isaiah 26:19, Ezekiel 37:7-10… Matthew 27:52-53. 36- Ascension to Heaven: Psalms 68:18, 24:3…Lk 24:50-51, Acts 1:11, Mk.16:19. 37- Christ at the Right hand of the Father: Psalm 110:1… Hebrews 1:2,3.
Ministry:
38- The way prepared by John the Baptist: Isaiah 40:3,5… John 1:23, Luke 3:3-6. 39- Preceded by a forerunner: Mal.3:1, Luk.7:24-27.
40- Preceded by Elijah: Mal.4:5-6, Matt.11:13-14.
41- Declared the Son of God: Ps.2:7, Matt.3:17.
42- Galilean Ministry: Is.9:1-2, Matt.4:13-16.
43- Speaks in Parables: Ps.78:2-4, Matt.13:34-35.
44- A Prophet: Deut.18:15, Jn.6:14, Acts 3:20-22.
45- Priest after the Order of Melchizedek: Ps.110:4, Heb.5:5-6.
46- To bind up the brokenhearted: Is.61:1-2, Luk.4:18-19.
47- Rejected by his own people, the Jews: Is.53:3, John 1:11.
48- Not believed: Is.53:1, John 12:37.
49- Adored by infants: Ps.8:2, Matt.21:15–16.
50- Anointed and eternal: Ps.45:6-7, Heb.1:8-12.
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JPBear:
A really nice job!
You have laid out for all to see just some of the prophecies of Jesus Christ from the Old Testament. For these and the others (actually over 300) to all have come true by coincidence is probably billions to one!
All you can do is point out the truth. But, keep in mind that the blind cannot see…
[quote]JPBear wrote:
All I can say is that none of the observations and hypotheses that you presented even begin to explain the questions I asked.
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…perhaps this applies to each and everyone of us: there are no definitive answers, just more questions…
…i’ve come to the understanding that it’s not about answers, but the cessation of the question. Funny thing that, once the question dissapeared, knowing surfaced…
…yes, there is something to life we can’t touch upon. Yes, life in itself is a mystery, and our attempts [whether that’s through religion or science] to explain this mystery will always fall short of truth…
…what we’re left with is a life we can live according to our own wishes and desires. You can give it the meaning you want it to have, and you can do your utmost to right the wrongs. It’s all good, for there is no-one to judge except you…
[please make out your donations to The All-Inclusive Church of Human Relationships and Peace and Happiness Stuff]
[quote]vroom wrote:
Steveo, JPBear,
An honest question for the both of you…
In the past, there have been things that have been done that were horrendous and mistaken. A good example that comes to mind is witch trials and burnings.
These things actually happened.
They were done by people who believed they were doing God’s work. They believed in Christianity and they thought they were fighting an evil, in the name of God no less.
There is no argument about it, these things happened.
Now, to be honest, I would think that you would also judge witch burnings as “evil” would you not? Surely, killing people because they are suspected of witchcraft, through painful and horrible means, qualifies as an “evil”?
So, as fundamentalists, I pose this question to you. How can you claim that a religion is the perfect unadulterated word of God if such mistakes and such “evil” can be conducted by honest believers in honest good faith?
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The world is an evil place. The Bible says that the heart of a man is desperately wicked. Of course non-Christians have done, and continue to do all sorts of evil in the name of God. They are not Christians and they will be punished for these things on the Day of Judgment.
I know you are asking an honest question, and I appreciate very much why you think this way. The only answer I can give you is not going to satisfy you, but it is the truth. When a people are born again, they are given the Holy Spirit to dwell in them until they die. The Spirit gives life to the words of the Bible. A true Christian will read those words and the essential doctrines will be clear to him. As a person grows in holiness, he or she will be able to understand more and more of God’s truth. There are many mysteries in the Bible that the human mind cannot fully understand; we will have to wait until we are made perfect - after the resurrection - to be able to understand all the truths of God.
This is a great question. Are Christians creating an idol by revering the Bible as the perfect, complete and infallible word of God? Are we inappropriately elevating a book to God-like status?
The answer for us is in John 1:1
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”
The word of God is God, but God is not only the Word. God’s Word is as good as He is because God cannot lie.
Here are some more passages:
“All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.” 2 Timothy 3:16
“Knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.” 2 Peter 1-20:21
“For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.” Hebrews 4:12
In several places throughout the New Testament, the word of God is referred to as a sword. Jesus also claimed that he came to bring a sword. Jesus is also referred to in several places as the Word.