Question for the Japanese speakers - is the language so difficult that one has barely mastered it in a decade even if living in country? Just curious.
Me - at one phase in life, medium fluency in German. Lack of being around it - and can’t hear it anymore,
Now - some Spanish from living in Texas, having owned a hardware store with a goodly amount of Spanish customers and also having contracted 2 houses this year,
[quote]DarkNinjaa wrote:
I’m fluent in French, German, Spanish, Italian, Portuguese. Learnt a bit of Polish, Chinese (Mandarin) and Russian. Still working on my Japanese.
I had no other choice when I was young. My parents were nomads. I had to adapt or suffer.
It helped in the long run. I still travel relentlessly and need to communicate with the locals during business meetings.
It’s a beauty to go to some places and overhear some people badmouthing me in languages they assume I cannot understand. Their astounded face when I put them back in their place in their language or slang, is evermore deliciously epic. Like bubbling chocolate running down an erect cock before suction.
[/quote]
DarkNinja: showing men that you shouldn’t get married since 2011.
Honestly, there are some really interesting and unique people out there in the world.
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]treco wrote:
Question for the Japanese speakers - is the language so difficult that one has barely mastered it in a decade even if living in country? Just curious.
[/quote]
Only if you don’t make any effort.
And surprisingly, there are a fair number of Westerners who don’t.
But if you made any effort at all, you should achieve some reasonable level of proficiency in 10 years.
Of course, “mastery” is a vague term, and I would argue that it’s a goal that is pretty much not possible for a non-native. And keep in mind that I’ve spent 20 years here, and devoted massive ammounts of time to the language. “Fluency” is certainly possible though (and I’d like to think that I have reached it).
There is also the issue of reading and writing, which is much more “seperate” from speaking than is the case with Western languages.[/quote]
I almost totally agree with all of this. I think in large part it works both ways. While there are MANY foreign speakers of English who have achieved what I would consider native level fluency**, it does not seem to happen nearly so often for Japanese or English speakers attempting to master one another’s languages. Sometimes I’ll watch a Japanese with an extremely high level of proficiency, then I’ll see another, who was either raised in America or went to international schools from a very young age, and the contrast will be so defined that it just floors me. This is particularly true as regards pronunciation. The Japanese have SUCH a rigidly limited amount of sounds, that are so mechanically arranged, that after a person reaches 5 or 6 years of age it becomes monumentally hard to ever achieve real natural pronunciation of English. It’s possible, I guess, but I almost never, if ever, see it.
English speakers actually have an advantage in this regard, as our language is a meld of three primary languages (Germanic, Latin and Greek…no pedantry, please, this is too long already). As a result,we have a much, much broader “palate” of sounds at our disposal. That said, many if not most English speakers still sound like shit speaking a foreign language, mostly due to what I believe is a simple lack of awareness of the nuances of pronunciation and how, well, pronounced they are to native hearers. We hear the L and R quite distinctly, while there is only one sound that could represent either of those in Japanese. Hence, a million different variations of Flied Lice jokes. However, there are alternative examples, as well. The Japanese language is rife with extended vowel sounds. So one word (actually phoneme) chu (pronounced “choo”, and another word, chuu, in which the “u” sound is about twice as long as the former (think “choo” and “chooo”), will have completely different meanings.
So if you read this far, I will reward you with the fact that Chushin’s name should actually be Chuushin. The name in Japanese means “center, heart” as in Joseph Conrad’s Heart of Darkness. However, as it is written, he is “in the middle of a kiss,” which I guess is not so bad, either…depending…
**“Native level fluency” is, itself, a somewhat relative term…there are PLENTY of non-native speakers who may use some non-standard English while possessing an overall mastery of the language FAR greater than many so-called native speakers.
[quote]DaBeard wrote:
I’m actually studying Fus’ha, which is Qur’anic arabic. But I’m pretty sure MSA is based off of it and all of the grammar is the same. Except for the fact that there are extra rules for the Fus’ha.
And it’s actually not impressive, English, Albanian and Serbian were all spoken in my house growing up so they’re all my first language. I actually only learned Spanish as a new tongue and now Arabic. Although I can read and write fluently in Arabic.[/quote]
Yeah, MSA is the closest to Fus’ha. From what I’ve gathered learning Fus’ha is equivalent to learning Latin, in that the other romance languages are easier to learn, though very much different. From Fus’ha you can jump to any leh’ja (dialect) of the language. The exception, I believe, would probably be Moroccan, because it has a good deal of French involved.
I attempted to learn German and kind of gave it up. This thread has inspired me to give it another go.
Your absolutely correct!
[quote]Ambugaton wrote:
[quote]DaBeard wrote:
I’m actually studying Fus’ha, which is Qur’anic arabic. But I’m pretty sure MSA is based off of it and all of the grammar is the same. Except for the fact that there are extra rules for the Fus’ha.
And it’s actually not impressive, English, Albanian and Serbian were all spoken in my house growing up so they’re all my first language. I actually only learned Spanish as a new tongue and now Arabic. Although I can read and write fluently in Arabic.[/quote]
Yeah, MSA is the closest to Fus’ha. From what I’ve gathered learning Fus’ha is equivalent to learning Latin, in that the other romance languages are easier to learn, though very much different. From Fus’ha you can jump to any leh’ja (dialect) of the language. The exception, I believe, would probably be Moroccan, because it has a good deal of French involved. [/quote]
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]treco wrote:
Question for the Japanese speakers - is the language so difficult that one has barely mastered it in a decade even if living in country? Just curious.
[/quote]
Only if you don’t make any effort.
And surprisingly, there are a fair number of Westerners who don’t.
But if you made any effort at all, you should achieve some reasonable level of proficiency in 10 years.
Of course, “mastery” is a vague term, and I would argue that it’s a goal that is pretty much not possible for a non-native. And keep in mind that I’ve spent 20 years here, and devoted massive ammounts of time to the language. “Fluency” is certainly possible though (and I’d like to think that I have reached it).
There is also the issue of reading and writing, which is much more “seperate” from speaking than is the case with Western languages.[/quote]
I almost totally agree with all of this. I think in large part it works both ways. While there are MANY foreign speakers of English who have achieved what I would consider native level fluency**, it does not seem to happen nearly so often for Japanese or English speakers attempting to master one another’s languages. Sometimes I’ll watch a Japanese with an extremely high level of proficiency, then I’ll see another, who was either raised in America or went to international schools from a very young age, and the contrast will be so defined that it just floors me. This is particularly true as regards pronunciation. The Japanese have SUCH a rigidly limited amount of sounds, that are so mechanically arranged, that after a person reaches 5 or 6 years of age it becomes monumentally hard to ever achieve real natural pronunciation of English. It’s possible, I guess, but I almost never, if ever, see it.
English speakers actually have an advantage in this regard, as our language is a meld of three primary languages (Germanic, Latin and Greek…no pedantry, please, this is too long already). As a result,we have a much, much broader “palate” of sounds at our disposal. That said, many if not most English speakers still sound like shit speaking a foreign language, mostly due to what I believe is a simple lack of awareness of the nuances of pronunciation and how, well, pronounced they are to native hearers. We hear the L and R quite distinctly, while there is only one sound that could represent either of those in Japanese. Hence, a million different variations of Flied Lice jokes. However, there are alternative examples, as well. The Japanese language is rife with extended vowel sounds. So one word (actually phoneme) chu (pronounced “choo”, and another word, chuu, in which the “u” sound is about twice as long as the former (think “choo” and “chooo”), will have completely different meanings.
So if you read this far, I will reward you with the fact that Chushin’s name should actually be Chuushin. The name in Japanese means “center, heart” as in Joseph Conrad’s Heart of Darkness. However, as it is written, he is “in the middle of a kiss,” which I guess is not so bad, either…depending…
**“Native level fluency” is, itself, a somewhat relative term…there are PLENTY of non-native speakers who may use some non-standard English while possessing an overall mastery of the language FAR greater than many so-called native speakers.
[/quote]
That was a very interesting post to read. The extended vowels are quite similar to Arabic. Reading a short a instead of a long A can change the entire meaning of a word in Arabic. When I feel I’ve gained enough of a command of the language so that I would be able to read a novel easily, I will most definitely attempt either mandarin or possible Japanese. If nothing else than the shock factor of people seeing a white guy speaking it.
That reminds me, my father speaks Mandarin with relative ease. He learned it from the time he started practicing Shoto-kan. His master spoke only one word in English, “good” and my father is one of those people who pick up languages with extreme ease. He speaks 6 languages fluently, and 3 with a pretty good grasp.
His teacher was Chinese. I guess in Brooklyn, NY anything goes. I mean, we got non Brazilians teaching ju jitsu for God’s sake, hehe.
[quote]Cimmerian wrote:
I attempted to learn German and kind of gave it up. This thread has inspired me to give it another go.[/quote]
You’re making me feel bad. I live in Germany and have made zero attempts to learn the language. haha.
Well if one person takes something away from this thread then we’re winning.
Spanish is my native language, but my dad made me watch TV in English since I was a toddler. So while my neighbors were watching El Chavo del Ocho, Domingo con Chabelo, Plaza Sésamo, etc, I grew up watching the children’s lineup on PBS, which if I remember correctly was Sesame Street, Lamb-chop, Mr. Rodgers’ Neighborhood, and as I got older I “evolved” to English speaking cartoons instead of the translated ones that ran on Mexican TV. So I grew up learning both English and Spanish at the same time.
My best advise? Immerse yourself in the study of your language. Force yourself into situations where you HAVE to practice it. If you only have an hour or less to study everyday, make every second count.
[quote]Freaky_Frankie wrote:
Spanish is my native language, but my dad made me watch TV in English since I was a toddler. So while my neighbors were watching El Chavo del Ocho, Domingo con Chabelo, Plaza Sésamo, etc, I grew up watching the children’s lineup on PBS, which if I remember correctly was Sesame Street, Lamb-chop, Mr. Rodgers’ Neighborhood, and as I got older I “evolved” to English speaking cartoons instead of the translated ones that ran on Mexican TV. So I grew up learning both English and Spanish at the same time.
My best advise? Immerse yourself in the study of your language. Force yourself into situations where you HAVE to practice it. If you only have an hour or less to study everyday, make every second count. [/quote]
That’s pretty cool that you learned a second language at what appears to be a native level pretty much from television alone. I’m sure it does happen, but I’d bet it’s fairly rare.
I’ve been in Taiwan 10 years and my Mandarin is a haphazard melange of high-level and low-level meaning I can say things like “My dog’s tooth enamel is too thin” but still can’t remember how to ask what time it is…maybe that’s because I always wear a watch.
I can have a 15 minute conversation IF all the right questions are asked, but I could equally be stymied if the wrong ones, meaning shit I don’t now, are asked.
Not directed at Nards but
How much time could any of us find to learn something if we spent less time here or other forums. I find myself reading an article on internet that takes 5-10 minutes and THEN spending 30 minutes reading the comments…
And then doing that for several hours in a day if not engaged in some ‘have to’
In the past few weeks, I have started weening myself off of doing that. Even here on T-Nation, I have thought
about just reading the articles and blowing off the rest.
[quote]treco wrote:
Not directed at Nards but
How much time could any of us find to learn something if we spent less time here or other forums. I find myself reading an article on internet that takes 5-10 minutes and THEN spending 30 minutes reading the comments…
And then doing that for several hours in a day if not engaged in some ‘have to’
In the past few weeks, I have started weening myself off of doing that. Even here on T-Nation, I have thought
about just reading the articles and blowing off the rest.
[/quote]
This is SO true. Doesn’t just apply to T-Nation, of course. I don’t watch TV, but I spend easily as much time as most people watch TV parked in front of my computer. When I first started studying Japanese, I came home from work and immediately plopped down in my living room and studied, with pencil and notebook for two hours at minimum. This was every night. If I had taken that time and used it as I do now, I am certain I would not have accomplished anywhere near as much as I have with my life.
Wow.
Maybe I should think a little deeper about this.
Good post, treco.
See yall later.
Languages were always a passion for me, probably has something to do with the fact that I grew up in a bilingual household (German and Croatian).
As a kid, we moved for a while to NJ where I learned English. I’m also fluent in Italian, Spanish, Portuguese and Slovenian.
I also speak bad French, which is pretty much useless in conversation because the French roll their eyes whenever they hear me speak.
I’m in the process of improving my Russian - currently I’m just pasting russian words onto Croatian grammar which means I can get my point across at the cost of sounding like a tool.
I have to say that knowing foreign languages helped me immensely in my business career, not to mention social contacts. Even speaking a few words of someone’s language can break the ice during the first contact.
I remember a cool story - during school holidays here in Croatia I was working on a construction site with my brother, when suddenly a group of Americans showed - mostly the “I promised my wife to take her to Europe when we retire and move to Florida” type.
Anyway, upon hearing them we started speaking like we just walked off the set of The Sopranos and proceeded to completely freak everyone out.
[quote]loppar wrote:
I also speak bad French, which is pretty much useless in conversation because the French roll their eyes whenever they hear me speak.
[/quote]
Oh yeah, French. I wouldn’t even say “I speak French” as I studied it in school for 5 years so I can watch kid’s shows and read Tin Tin but no way I’m having a conversation with a French person!
Hell, I can make out nothing in Taxi.
[quote]
Hell, I can make out nothing in Taxi.[/quote]
That’s normal.
I could say the same thing. And i’m a french teacher native from France.
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]Freaky_Frankie wrote:
Spanish is my native language, but my dad made me watch TV in English since I was a toddler. So while my neighbors were watching El Chavo del Ocho, Domingo con Chabelo, Plaza SÃ?©samo, etc, I grew up watching the children’s lineup on PBS, which if I remember correctly was Sesame Street, Lamb-chop, Mr. Rodgers’ Neighborhood, and as I got older I “evolved” to English speaking cartoons instead of the translated ones that ran on Mexican TV. So I grew up learning both English and Spanish at the same time.
My best advise? Immerse yourself in the study of your language. Force yourself into situations where you HAVE to practice it. If you only have an hour or less to study everyday, make every second count. [/quote]
That’s pretty cool that you learned a second language at what appears to be a native level pretty much from television alone. I’m sure it does happen, but I’d bet it’s fairly rare. [/quote]
Well they we’re “educational” tv shows, plus my dad always asked me stuff in English while my mom, who sadly could not speak English to save her own life, talked to me in Spanish, so my brother an I kind of adapted this instant English-Spanish switch into our heads. Of course, the finer points of both languages I learned reading grammar books and practicing what I learned. My English is what got me my present job, which is the highest paying job I’ve ever had.
That’s why I think that when it comes to learning a new skill, not just a language, immersing yourself as much as you can into its study and practice is key for your eventual success. And I don’t think it’s as much a matter of time as it is a matter of effort… The smart kind, no the “I’ll ram my head against that brick wall until I run through it” kind. Effort will trump time any day in book.