Political Parties: What Happened?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
1

As I sit here, and look at all of this negativity, this Bush bashing. Ripping him to shreds. As I read about the things that went on at that Hate Bush rally 2004, that was just held in NYC. A tape which John Kerry is refusing to allowing the tape to be shown. As you look at what happened at the Senator Paul Wellstone funeral. As you look at the Democrats these days, screaming in Congress, on the TV, almost like a little child, throwing a temper tantrum. You see newspapers, tv news, all one sided. Not giving the American people the truth. And all they do is bash Bush, bash Bush. As you look at the comments actors, and actresses, have made about George Bush. Or even the propaganga movie Faranhiet/911. Which no one has seen the likes of before, since Gobbels released the film, Triumph of the Will. Look at all that Bill CLinton did. ANd book after book, just out to get Bush. And all the Democrats are doing these days, are bashing and trashing, Bush. And then as soon as one tries to defend Bush, you hear people say you are an absolute idiot, stupid, being called all names in the book. And yet they refuse to even see the other side of the coin, or see where the Republicans are coming from. And all you hear is nothing of substance coming from them…What is happening to the Democratic Party these days? I am sure Thomas Jefferson, is rolling is rolling in his grave, Or other prominent Democrats, who have passed away. For the Democratic party is nothing like why it was founded, or the early days of the Democratic party.

I went back in my notes, and old texttbook, from my Political Science course I had on America’s political parites, And to why the Democratic party was even founded.:

Thomas Jefferson and fellow Virginian James Madison, was the Democratic-Republican Party, the forerunner of today?s Democratic Party. The Democratic-Republicans advocated a limited federal government, little government interference in economic affairs, and a pro-French foreign policy. They were particularly popular with debt-ridden farmers, artisans, and Southerners. Jefferson also opposed a strong centralized Government and championed the rights of states.

The second two-party system developed gradually as Democratic-Republicans began quarreling over several issues. The followers of Henry Clay and John Quincy Adams, who asserted that the federal government should actively promote economic development, became known as National Republicans. Their opponents, who eventually united behind the presidential candidacy of Andrew Jackson, took the Democratic-Republican name. By 1828 the Democratic-Republicans were known as the Democratic Party.

Here from my notes are the compariosns betwween Jeffersonian vs Jacksonian Democracy:

Jeffersonian Democracy believed that capable, well educated leaders should govern in the people?s interest.
Jacksonian Democracy believed that the PEOPLE should manage government affairs
Jeffersonian Democracy reflected a chiefly agricultural society
Jacksonian Democracy reflected an agricultural AND rising industrial society
Jeffersonian Democracy limited democracy to chiefly its political aspects
Jacksonian Democracy expanded democracy beyond political aspects to include social and economic factors

Now if this is the basic foundations of the Democratic Party, and as to which she was founded upon, I ask you, what happened to the Democratic Party today? You look at how much role today they want the Federal Gov’t have in our lives. How many decisons the Dem want us to have. Tell us what we have to do with our $, and how we should spend it.

Now I am sure, that you Democarts are saying, oh but what about you Republicans, you are doing the same exact thing to us. Yes it is true many are. But it is sad that both parties have gotten astray from the basic principles and foundations, to which they were founded upon.

All we hear is both parties talking so much doom and gloom. This is what wll happen if you allow this person to be the next Pres. and the other side is saying the same thing. We hear nothing about like Ronald Reagan ran his campains on. How great America is. Being so positive, We can do it. Be proud to be an American!! Wave that flag so proudly We hear very little substance. More bashing one another. Mudslinging. Just so down and dirty.
And again very little substance. For at times you are so confused,what do they stand for? What are their polcies? How will they make America great? Or what will they do for me?

This is why so many will say I had it with the eleciton!!! Or vote for a thrid party, or not even vote at all. In disgust as to how politics are today.

We look at how many lobbysists or interest groups are controlling the votes of Congressmen, or legislatures. Vote my way then I… Not many people are voting by the conscience, or in the interest of their fellow citizens,

And both sides are guilty of this too, How many don’t look at both sides of the coin. See both sides. Back in the
years leading up to the Civil War,in May 1856, Charles Sumner delivered a two-day oration? “The Crime against Kansas”?that vehemently condemned Southern advocacy of the expansion of slavery. Congressman Preston Brooks of South Carolina believed that Sumner had insulted his uncle, Senator Andrew Butler. In retaliation, Brooks used his cane to beat Sumner, who was seated at his desk on the Senate floor, to unconsciousness. This is the atmosphere we have in Washington these days…

If we are going to combat terrorism, or make America great, we got to get back to end all this mudslinging, Bush bashing, the slatness, lies, etc…
For how you think the rest of the world is looking at America? And our politics? And our politicans…

But more importantly we have to realize the differences esp in the Democrats and the far left. The same with the Republicans and the Ultra right Conservatives. People that are so far right or left. And we got to hope that what they want for America, does not be put into their platforms.

But I think they have too much influence in both parties these days. That it be so hard to go back to the basic foundations, that our founding fathers, have set forth as to why they formed the political parites.

And thus divde America even more…And nothing be accomplsihed when that does oocur…Sad…

Sorry for a mixture of thoughts there… But just some thoguhts as to all I been seeing these days…

Stay Laced and True…ChucksmanJoe

“Joe” .

2

Joe, both sides are pretty much guilty of the same thing. And, like it or not, whoever is in office is a criticism magnet. The person with the power is the news – it’s that simple…

3

To add a little to what vroom said -

This is the instant information age. Before Gore invented the internet, before cable TV- the debates and partisanship were left to the key players- Joe six-pack really had no outlet to voice his opinion.

I don’t think things are any less partisan than they have been in the past - there’s just a whole lot more people participating.

I’ve not seen any studies done, but if you look at it, there seems to be a relationship between the amount of information we as a people have access to, and the widening of the gap between the left and right.

Sorry about the Gore dig…

4

yes what you said is so true…The President, or any official actor, actress, etc comes under the microscpe. ANd there will always be someone that will look for some faults, in that person. nd try to expound on them. And no one more than the President comes under that microscpe.

But as I was coming to my parents, and was thinking about all of this. Seeing all I do esp with the Bush Bashers. All these pics of him, sayings, articles, jokes, etc. Or you take that concert. WHich I heard was beyond belief. That Kerry is refusing to have the tape released of the concert.

There was several years ago, I remeber an ABC Afterschool Special, that I wished could be replayed today. For it really brings the message home. ANd something truly that the people of the uS better think about.

The show centered on this social studies teacher, who began to take like 10 min before class ended, talking to his students. And he talked to them about the school. And the classroom etc. And then after a few weeks of this, he handed them a piece of paper,
and had each of them write down 3 things they see are wrong with the school. And how they are needed to be changed. Well, from that survey, he went and expounded, on those 3 thee things needed changing. ANd wha tthe kids could do to make the changes. and how WE can make a diiference. Well he started to get the kids fired up about wanting to do these changes. His talks grew to about 20 minutes now. And each day he kept talking on those 3 main issues more and more. And convincing them they were the ones that will make the changes. He began to get the kids right where he wanted them. ANd under his power. He then began to talk about the different groups of people in his classes. And talk more and more about them. How certain groups are stopping us from acheiving these 3 goals. Soon he was having secret meetings not allowing these kids to join in. They would pass around leaflets, or drawings, and paint these kids as no good rotten etc. Condemn them and villify them. It was a this point too the parents started to get involved.
But the kids were so phannantical, that they could not be stopped. The hatred talk just grew and grew for these kids. The kids were made to sit in the back of the room, alltogether, in a seperate section from the class. The kids demanded this happen. It was at this point the teacher knew it had gone too far. SO it ends with the teacher saying to the group, I am now going to present to you our true leader that will lead us to victory. That will help us achieve our goals. And the teacher goes pops a tape in the VCR, and shows Adolf Hitler. And the kids were stunned, and many cried… And he said the end result for those students we shunned would of been pics of the concentratino camps. And then the movie ended.

I share the above with you because, what is happening is exactly what the terrorists want to see happen. And it is very very dangerous. They want the country to be divded. To show it is weak. That we do not stand by or back or leaders. ANd the more divded we become, the more happier they become.
And this happens each time a picture, post saying quote article, website, actor, actress, muscian, etc…bashes our President.

Just like in the program you can see how easily, things can happen. How one can be influenced
if the right words are said that you want to hear. Literally brainwashing one To do anything. Even if it means to kill yourself. Or kill others. Just for the good of the cause, or leader, or terorristic movement.

This is why instead of bashing the President, we need to as Senator Lieberman said, “know the enemy.” We need to bring out more and more who they are. What they intend to do. And cabable of doing. Way too too many people have forgotten what hapepned on 9/11. For the more we know this enemy, get into their minds, whys and hows, then we will show we mean business. But this glassing thmem over, and not being very serious what they can do, and instead, let us Bash our President instead. Only divdes this country more in the eyes of the terrrorists.

Yes I know bashing and trashing of the candidates have gone on since Washington and Adams election. But there was a differnece to that. And being critical of the President.Back them we had no terrorists. The goal was to persuade the voters, my candidate is better than yours. September 11, 2001 changed all of this. And the world we live in. And we need to concentrate well let us not bash our President, but this is what I will do for America instead. Not show we are weak. Not show we are divded. That yes we might differ, and disagree. But all in all, we are United. We might not like this President. But we are facing a very dangerous enemy. ANd they don’t care what skin color, or creed you are. You are not one of them. You deserve to die… Again reread Senator Liebermans speech. We MUST know this enemy…ANd know him good. Instead of bash after bash our Presdient. For just like in that movie, I saw that one day afterscool, if we don’t know who the enemy is. Just like those kids. Look how easily it is for us to fall under their spell. Or play into their hands. Exactly wha tthey want. Then it will be too late…

Again America WAKE UP!! and not be so so so so one sided, and know this enemy. Before God forbid it can be too late…

Joe.

5

Joe, I think I might interpret your story differently than you did.

What you are saying points against things like “either with us or against us” or that having a different viewpoint or opinion is unpatriotic. When people aren’t allowed to be different and to be “against” something, then you have the comformists making it difficult for those that won’t conform. This is something that happens from time to time these days.

I’m really trying to stay way from right and left concepts (though the quote I used will be in danger of putting my post right into the middle of that) at least with respect to argumentative cannon fodder.

My take, Joe, is that the students that blindly went along with the teacher were in the wrong. They should have thought about what they were doing to the other students and whether or not it was right. They should have QUESTIONED things. If they had of poked and prodded at things (been divided as you put it), then they might have been able to resist creating a second class of citizens in their classroom setting.

There is a role for all people. The right wing conservative helps keep society from changing its values too quickly. The left wing liberal brings new ideas to the table. Both can see how nation founding principles are being voilated and raise the cry.

I don’t think it will make a difference, but maybe some on the right will realize that some on the left are not pansy pacifists but think there might be important principles being twisted. I’m not asking you to agree, but just to cut some slack to those that do think differently than yourself on the matter. Criticism isn’t necessarily a negative thing at all, it means somebody sees something important enough to speak out about.

For example, Moore might be an idiot, he might twist the truth, he might hold ideas you don’t agree with, but he has the courage to stand behind his convictions and speak them knowing half of the populace will probably hate him for it. Whatever else you think of him, that does take a type of courage.

I don’t claim to be able to represent the right well, but morally, they are allowed to feel that the family unit, the church, God, concepts of trust and justice and right and wrong, and all these other things that were more important to society in the past should remain important.

Different sets of principles but principles nonetheless. Those on the left should respect the fact that some people prefer to fight the sliding values that always occur in society – wanting them to be at least slowed.

Anyway, Joe, my take is that by disagreeing and discussing these things both the left and right (or at least those that are willing) can try to understanding the thinking or the issues behind the other side. Spin politics isn’t really conducive to that, but often we do get snippets of good conversation in here, and it’s healthy.

So what if we call each other names and get into heated debates… differences of opinion have always existed and will always exist. Maybe though if we could get away from the poor logic of thinking there is only one right way or only one right answer – something I’d blame the school system for instilling in us as we grow up – things would be a bit smoother…

6

Vroom,
Excellent post! Thank you for your thoughts. Too often we see people spouting off about diversity and/or inclusiveness while excluding others’ points of view. Your post reminds us that somewhere amidst the tension of left and right, we can forge ahead.

We should hold onto the truly timeless traditions that have proven themselves valid, while being open-minded enough to seek out solutions that reflect a dynamic and changing world.

Finally, a common sense post among the back-and-forth bickering (of which, I too am guilty) that is usually found on this forum. Nice job!

PS - You don’t have to thank me for the “bump”. LOL

7

It is so true that both parties are guilty of this. And people refusing to see the other side of the coin and vice versa. People do have the right to freedom of speech too, and to express their own viewpoint as they please. Wthether it is against the President, or whoever. And yes it has been going on ever since the 1st Presidental election. Which is very good esp when you can see both sides. See where they are coming from.

But back then, we really had one form of comm. that was by the newspapers. then later the radio, then tv, movies… and now also the internet.
But the difference before 9/11/2001, and today is, After 9/11/2001, we are fighing an enemy the likes we never seen before. Before 9/11, any War we fought or were involved in , we fought an Army who had a huge military. Lots of weapons. And we knew who the enemy was. In the press, newspapers, radio, and later movies, we were shown exactly this is who the enemy is. And if we don’t do something…Becasue it was shown to the American people. And they realized hey we better do something… or else…Thats why take for example World War II, people would ration, all the necessaties of life. Or like my Uncle and his brothers and sisters did, go on the dumps. Tie a magnet to a rope. of one of them, and run back and forth in the junk yard collecting the tin cans, on the magnet, for the war effort. This they would do almost every other day. People would sacrifice. Men, women, and children. Even eat like lard sandwiches. Why? because we must save this country. Save democracy. Because we knew what this enemy was all about. And what could happen if we do not …All the jokes, ridicule, people against the War stopped. No one bashed the President. The country united… And Nazism and totalitarianism was defeated. For the simple fact is, we united as one country. If we did not Unite, God knows what could have happened. We would of never been able to defeat Hitler and Japan.

Now let us look at America 9/11/2001.
We are fighting a enemy that has very little if no army. A enemy many of us Americans do not know who or what this enemy is. A enemy that is phannatical. A enemy that is religious and even die for their religion.
A enemy that is extremely dangerous. A enemy we never know when they will strike next, or where they will strike.
A enemy we need to be prepared for. And always be watchful and onguard for. A enemy too in which the country needs to be united for. Just like Senator Daschle had stated. We need to put away our differences, we Rep and Dem have. And work for a ompromise…And get very serious about combatting this enemy. Again you look at how this country was united when those towers hit. To combat this enemy that is the image we need to convey all over again. In time of war, talk of divison, one sideness, should not even come into the picture. What the American people should want to hear is, ok what wil YOU do to combat this enemy? What will YOU do to make this country safer? For in time of War, National Security, or nation’s defense, should take precedence. Over our Domestic issues. Just like in World War II, if it means we need to sacrifice, for the good of the country, and our defense so be it. Like at our nations airports. Going to our landmarks. Having go through detectors. People watching where they are. There surroundings people around them. And i can go on and on on this too… Think you get the picture.

And this is not to force one to one side or the other. TO the left or right. I am talking in general here…
For both sides when it is time of War, need to stop the bashing, and get very very serious on who and what htis enemy is. And drive that home to all Americans. Then tell us how you would be the one that will defeat this enemy.

And as for that ABC afterschool special the message it was truly trying to bring out was is how easily it is for one to be convinced. And what the power of words can do to one. Or to totally do whatever the leader wants them to do Case in point is Adolf Hitler. Hitler came to power, by words. It is all he used. He promised the people three things, food, shelter, and jobs. And he centered on those three things. And It is what the people wanted to hear.
When he spoke, he would put you in a hypnotic state. When he became Chancellor, he expounded on those three promises. And he would make Germany great. Relive the times of Fredrick the Great. Bring back the glory days of Germany. But he also brought about all by words, convincing the German people, about the subhumans… You had Joseph Goebbels, sprewing proganda and hatred. People heard the greatness in the music, the movies, from the radio. But also about the subhumans. And more and more the German people fell under Hitler’s spell. Again all used by words…That is all he used…

You can say the same case in point for the kamakaize pilots that targeted the ships to their death. To die for the Emperor. And for the good of Japan. That in a way was terorism too. Becasue what Japan wanted to do was, inflict the most US casualities. Yes they knew they were defeated. But they wanted the sympathy the US people to say enough is enough…Or the terorists that hijacked the planes on 9/11. The suicide bombers, Or all those that go into the cults, or occults, etc…

Will leave you with this: I remember watching a TV program, on the History Channel, on the inner psyche of the SS.
And they interviewed this one former SS soldier. Who witnessed and shot along with other SS soldiers, townspeople in a town in Russia. Just literally shot them for no reason. And the interviewer asked him why did you do it? He said ," Becasue I was told to do it, over and over again. And I had to obey my orders. I could not disobey them."

Joe

8

Joe, while the situation is somewhat different than previous situations, I don’t think the principles on which the US was founded need to be altered.

Conformity and an unwillingness to speak out are plain and simple bad things. Somehow you are asking everyone to agree and get along and work together and at the same time pointing to why that is such a dangerous road… ?

What I think might actually be good is if leaders were elected that were more interested in long term issues as opposed to getting elected. Right now it is all about money, who can advertise the most, who can reach the most people, who can promise the most.

This gives the rich and powerful (or special interests) too much control. The government is supposed to represent the people, not the people that can donate the most to the major political parties. This is where the real power is and it is insidious.