From what I’ve read of Poliqiun – which
goes back many years – he does make the
points I said he did, and he does define
exercises as “unproductive” as soon
as the illusory rapid strength gains
of the first few exercises has run its course,
and then insists on switching to another
exercise which then will exhibit the
same pattern. I do not feel I have
misrepresented him, nor do I feel I have
misrepresented his unwillingness to
provide or acknowledge that training plans
do exist (periodization plans, not the
same workout every week) that provide
long term gains and don’t require new
plans from the coach every X weeks, X
being a small number.
I just have to say that this topic really got my adrenaline flowing! It was really entertaining and informative to read a few or you jockeying back and forth. NOW THAT’S WHAT A FORUM SHOULD BE LIKE! I have nothing but good things to say about this site in general. But… and this is a big ‘but’, sometimes it seems that everyone here is a little too much in agreement… This probably happens because the contributors of this magazine write such great articles (not to mention entertaining) that everyone quickly sides with them. Seeing how most visitors here probably use the information listed here as their primary source it makes for great “conformist forums” it doesnt do much in really challenging what we learn. All this was an awesome debate performed with a controlled passion.
And an extra nod to Bill Roberts to challenging the principles of another Testosterone contributor!!! AWESOME:)
Keep it going guys!!! This got really interesting!
“I’m not a big believer in changing things. We all know the exercises that work best.”- Dorian Yates.
Yeah, excellent thread! Let’s get to the truth.
I think we need to clarify whether one would be using this principle for muscular hypertrophy or for muscular strength? One pre-requisite for muscular hypertrophy is muscular damage. This damage is more likely to occur if the body is doing something that it is rather unaccustomed to doing. I’m sure all of us have noticed we typically get more soreness when embarking on a change in routine. I think this tends to support poliquins theory for HYPERTROPHY only. For maximal strength one of the most important things is coordination of the nervous system to make the movement more efficient. In this case than the more one practices the movement the more efficient the nervous system becomes at executing the movement and thus over a period of time the more efficient the movement becomes. This would support sticking to any given movement over a long period of time for continual STRENGTH gains. This is why strength training and bodybuilding are 2 entirely different things and both sides of this argument are right.
Kelley, I normally agree with most of your posts. But Westside’s training is more like Bill’s suggestion than Poliquin’s. Bill suggests “Meat and Potatoes” lifts staying the same with Tempo and weight periodization (Dynamic days) and specific exercises to correct weaknesses (ME Days).
Even Louie says that the changing of the exercises is for mental reasons (esteem and constant progression) as much as it is for strength.
Just My $0.02
I agree with Kelly on a lot of the points he made. I believe Ian King also made the same point about hypertrophy - it may be the total number of exercise you do rather than the total number of sets.
One point I disagree on - I believe this principle can be useful to strength trainees. After all, a larger muscle is a strong muscle, assuming that the right type of hypertrophy is developed. Of course you can also become strong in a particular movement if you practice that movement and "wire" your body to become efficient at it. So why not do both? Use a greater variety of exercises during the prepatory phases of your training to elicit greater functional hypertrophy, then "practice" a particular movement later on in your training to develop greater neural efficiency.
krakkerz I don’t understand what you’re disagreeing with me on? What I meant in my last post is just because one advises something for hypertrophy doesnt mean it would be the best thing for strength and vice/versa
Hey Kelly, I have the westside seminar video and in it Louis, who I think is a damn mastermind and true supergenius, says he has to switch exercises every week. What he meant was for example, if I heard this right, I’ll go back and listen to it again, is that for Max days, he’ll do goodmornings one week, low box squats the next week. That to me seems to show variety. But I agree that what Poliquin was saying was this is more for hypertrophy, which I agree. On the other hand, variety for variety sake doesn’t necessarily need to happen. But if you look at alot of the old lifters is that they used alot of the same old lifts time and time again and they had wonderful bodies and where strong as hell. I think that is more on the line of Bill’s side. Personally I like to change things up every three weeks just to keep it fun.
Hey Kelly, I would like to know what sports you compete/competed in. You really seem to know your stuff i.e. book smarts, as well it seems like you also have a lot of background/real-world knowledge. Do you have a exercise related degree or are you a independent studier of the subjects. Any way you seem to know what you are talking about.
I’m very familiar with Westside training techniques as I’ve used the system myself and trained others on the system as well. The reason they switch max effort exercises is so they can train week in and week out with 90% + weights and avoid burnout. This also allows them to hit a max effort exercise at 90% + each week without having to really periodize volume and intensity on the M.E. exercise…just hit each exercise hard and heavy for a few weeks then switch exercises. They squat and bench once a week with lighter weights for power development and I guess you could call this squatting and benching a form of strength rehearsal as well. (getting more proficient doing the movement)
Hey thanks for the compliments. I’ve played a lot of sports and I owned a gym so I had the opportunity to analyze and apply lots of different ideas. I have some schooling but probably 90% of all my information comes from reading, listening, and applying everything I can as well as learning from a variety of different people. I think Charles Poliquin summed it up best when he said that it takes 10 hours of reading and study per week for a minimum of 5 years to gain an appreciable amount of knowledge on a particular topic.
just to further clarify the distinction between bodybuilding and just about every other sport. Hypertrophy is facilitated by making the weight as difficult to lift as possible (no momentum). In other sports, like powerlifting, Olympic lifting, or track and field, momentum and neuromuscular efficiency are essential. So Poliquin’s confusion principle might make sense for bodybuilders but not for other athletes. As for Louie Simmons’ switching exercises, I’m pretty sure that is to bring up weak muscles, not for hypertrophy…
Ya, I know why Louis does it I was just trying to make a point about variety. I’ve been doing Westside’s program for sometime now. I’ve made great gains from it!
Kelly, the delay in administration of the board seems to have caused a little confusion. My post was responding to your first post. Not the second.