Police Brutality

snipeout · March 8, 2009, 11:49pm

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
snipeout wrote:
With out laws and regulations how do you keep ownership. If I want your ‘property’ all I need is to hire 2 someones to take it. Since there are no laws, there are no reprecussions for your dead body in a pig trough.

Why do you keep bringing up this strawman? No one is talking about “no laws”.

What you say is true regardless of whether there are laws that make this example illegal or not. You, as an enforcer of laws, cannot stop someone from taking anything they want from me. Only I or someone within direct striking distance can do that.

Laws don’t stop people from acting. Defensiveness does.

Seriously man, you do not lend any credit to your brethren.[/quote]

Who would enforce the laws? Carry out the the due process? Maybe you are looking for a true democracy as opposed to our presidential system(republic)? Even in an instance like this people still vote about laws, regulations and who would carry out due process.

You would still be subject to the will of the mass. You could not have different laws for every other acre of property.

LIFTICVSMAXIMVS · March 8, 2009, 11:51pm

[quote]Sloth wrote:
So everyone on it is subject to your law.[/quote]

Duh! My house, my rules. You don’t like it you are FREE to leave.

[quote]
And every neighbor surrounding you, the same. Perhaps millions of little private armies. And when Billy Bob assualts your family member at the supermarket, you’re going to send your private police/military force to confront Billy Bob and his private army? [/quote]

No. I wouldn’t do it this way because I would not seek to punish those not responsible for a crimes against my property. I would seek financial restitution via voluntary arbitration.

Barring that I would seek an injunction against this individual from any benefits he might receive from his property. I would not hurt my chances for financial restitution.

Hopefully, any douchebag that attempts to intentionally harm me and mine would be insured and I could seek restitution that way. That way I would not have to take him to court but rather his insurance company.

If that were not possible then I would be out of luck as is often the case. For example, in cases of murder there would be no way to seek damages.

This is why I am in favor of bringing back the notion of community banishment/shunning in the most extreme cases. I think that could work. I am not joking, BTW.

Loose_Tool · March 8, 2009, 11:58pm

[quote]pushharder wrote:
I have had a Colorado cop between Denver and Colorado Springs insist on following me to a US mailbox and watch me drop the cash in an envelope in the mailbox before he would release me. Just a simple speeding ticket on I-25, nothing more.

[/quote]

Lucky you weren’t running a red light on a bicycle in Denver:

http://www.9news.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=106255&catid=339

snipeout · March 9, 2009, 12:04am

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Sloth wrote:
So everyone on it is subject to your law.

Duh! My house, my rules. You don’t like it you are FREE to leave.

And every neighbor surrounding you, the same. Perhaps millions of little private armies. And when Billy Bob assualts your family member at the supermarket, you’re going to send your private police/military force to confront Billy Bob and his private army?

No. I wouldn’t do it this way because I would not seek to punish those not responsible for a crimes against my property. I would seek financial restitution via voluntary arbitration. Barring that I would seek an injunction against this individual from any benefits he might receive from his property. I would not hurt my chances for financial restitution.

Hopefully, any douchebag that attempts to intentionally harm me and mine would be insured and I could seek restitution that way. That way I would not have to take him to court but rather his insurance company.

If that were not possible then I would be out of luck as is often the case. For example, in cases of murder there would be no way to seek damages.

This is why I am in favor of bringing back the notion of community banishment/shunning in the most extreme cases. I think that could work. I am not joking, BTW.[/quote]

Do you live in a bubble? You are going to require all people to carry some sort of all encompassing umbrella policy? You think someone intent on harming you or your property is going to insure themselves against your losses.

All states have a victim restitution fund for victims of crimes. Community banishment and shunning? Now he is free to victimize the next community for financial gain. That is unless you are going to immorally confine him for using his property the way he wanted to against you.

LIFTICVSMAXIMVS · March 9, 2009, 12:06am

[quote]snipeout wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
snipeout wrote:
With out laws and regulations how do you keep ownership. If I want your ‘property’ all I need is to hire 2 someones to take it. Since there are no laws, there are no reprecussions for your dead body in a pig trough.

Why do you keep bringing up this strawman? No one is talking about “no laws”.

What you say is true regardless of whether there are laws that make this example illegal or not. You, as an enforcer of laws, cannot stop someone from taking anything they want from me. Only I or someone within direct striking distance can do that.

Laws don’t stop people from acting. Defensiveness does.

Seriously man, you do not lend any credit to your brethren.

Who would enforce the laws? Carry out the the due process? Maybe you are looking for a true democracy as opposed to our presidential system(republic)? Even in an instance like this people still vote about laws, regulations and who would carry out due process. You would still be subject to the will of the mass. You could not have different laws for every other acre of property.
[/quote]

Well, in all actuality, in a completely voluntary society crimes would only be against property and life. And really, breaking a rule on someone’s property is not committing a crime unless there is damage done.

For example, a store owner has the right to ask his customers to wear clothing in his store or to leave. There does not need to be individual “laws” making it a crime to be naked. Nor does every property owner need his own laws written into a book.

In a free and voluntary society laws are enforced by everyone. Usually it is the victim or some witness who notifies some agency that a crime was committed. I really think the notion of stopping crimes by uniformed officials is really far fetched.

I know as a matter of course this cannot be a reality in most police stations otherwise so many crimes would not go unreported.

For example, I got my car broken into and my stereo stolen and I did not call the cops because I am sure it would have just wasted my time. Plus, adding to crime statistics just makes a case to hire more police to government officials. I don’t want that because more cops do not mean less crime.

snipeout · March 9, 2009, 12:07am

[quote]Loose Tool wrote:
pushharder wrote:
I have had a Colorado cop between Denver and Colorado Springs insist on following me to a US mailbox and watch me drop the cash in an envelope in the mailbox before he would release me. Just a simple speeding ticket on I-25, nothing more.

Lucky you weren’t running a red light on a bicycle in Denver:

http://www.9news.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=106255&catid=339

[/quote]

That is an absolute abomination. The officer should be prosecuted.

LIFTICVSMAXIMVS · March 9, 2009, 12:10am

[quote]snipeout wrote:
You are going to require all people to carry some sort of all encompassing umbrella policy? You think someone intent on harming you or your property is going to insure themselves against your losses.

All states have a victim restitution fund for victims of crimes. Community banishment and shunning? Now he is free to victimize the next community for financial gain. That is unless you are going to immorally confine him for using his property the way he wanted to against you.
[/quote]

I am not against confinement, per se. I am against the monopoly of power that allows it. There is no reason why private enterprise could not handle it.

Besides, in a voluntary society how could we force anyone to carry insurance? I know I would be because to not be would be insane, for example, if a crime is committed against me how could I seek justice otherwise without lots of money?

snipeout · March 9, 2009, 12:10am

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
snipeout wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
snipeout wrote:
With out laws and regulations how do you keep ownership. If I want your ‘property’ all I need is to hire 2 someones to take it. Since there are no laws, there are no reprecussions for your dead body in a pig trough.

Why do you keep bringing up this strawman? No one is talking about “no laws”.

What you say is true regardless of whether there are laws that make this example illegal or not. You, as an enforcer of laws, cannot stop someone from taking anything they want from me. Only I or someone within direct striking distance can do that.

Laws don’t stop people from acting. Defensiveness does.

Seriously man, you do not lend any credit to your brethren.

Who would enforce the laws? Carry out the the due process? Maybe you are looking for a true democracy as opposed to our presidential system(republic)? Even in an instance like this people still vote about laws, regulations and who would carry out due process. You would still be subject to the will of the mass. You could not have different laws for every other acre of property.

Well, in all actuality, in a completely voluntary society crimes would only be against property and life. And really, breaking a rule on someone’s property is not committing a crime unless there is damage done.

For example, a store owner has the right to ask his customers to wear clothing in his store or to leave. There does not need to be individual “laws” making it a crime to be naked. Nor does every property owner need his own laws written into a book.

In a free and voluntary society laws are enforced by everyone. Usually it is the victim or some witness who notifies some agency that a crime was committed. I really think the notion of stopping crimes by uniformed officials is really far fetched.

I know as a matter of course this cannot be a reality in most police stations otherwise so many crimes would not go unreported.

For example, I got my car broken into and my stereo stolen and I did not call the cops because I am sure it would have just wasted my time. Plus, adding to crime statistics just makes a case to hire more police to government officials. I don’t want that because more cops do not mean less crime. [/quote]

I think that eventually no matter what you try it will all evolve or devolve back to what we have. The bottom line is that the mass of people need regulating.

How would you file an insurance claim for your radio with out a police report? The insurance company will just take your word for it? Your brother or neighbors word?

LIFTICVSMAXIMVS · March 9, 2009, 12:22am

[quote]snipeout wrote:
I think that eventually no matter what you try it will all evolve or devolve back to what we have. The bottom line is that the mass of people need regulating.

How would you file an insurance claim for your radio with out a police report? The insurance company will just take your word for it? Your brother or neighbors word?
[/quote]

Good point. I wouldn’t file a claim against my stereo either for the same reason as not wanting to waste my time. Also, there is no reason to notify my insurers that I live in an area of such insignificant crime just to have them raise my rates.

I would imagine insurance would be used for pieces of property that are more worthy of being insured or perhaps there would be clauses in the contract stating the value of the property that must be damaged or stolen…really, I don’t know. I am just trying to be imaginative, in a logically consistent manner.

snipeout · March 9, 2009, 1:26am

[quote]pushharder wrote:
snipeout wrote:
Loose Tool wrote:
pushharder wrote:
I have had a Colorado cop between Denver and Colorado Springs insist on following me to a US mailbox and watch me drop the cash in an envelope in the mailbox before he would release me. Just a simple speeding ticket on I-25, nothing more.

Lucky you weren’t running a red light on a bicycle in Denver:

http://www.9news.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=106255&catid=339

That is an absolute abomination. The officer should be prosecuted.

Really? But, but, but…you have lived in Alabama, North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, Hawaii, New Jersey and PA and have traveled consistently from Georgia to NJ for a 2 year period as well as Western PA to east NJ and have never encountered what was described in that news report…

So it probably didn’t really happen…

[/quote]

Your comparing aggravated assault to a fucking speeding ticket. I’m sure you’re not embelleshing anything since it did just happen in 1980. Bottom line don’t break the law and you won’t be in trouble. I know it’s hard to follow POSTED limits.

snipeout · March 9, 2009, 2:00am

[quote]pushharder wrote:
snipeout wrote:
pushharder wrote:
snipeout wrote:
Loose Tool wrote:
pushharder wrote:
I have had a Colorado cop between Denver and Colorado Springs insist on following me to a US mailbox and watch me drop the cash in an envelope in the mailbox before he would release me. Just a simple speeding ticket on I-25, nothing more.

Lucky you weren’t running a red light on a bicycle in Denver:

http://www.9news.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=106255&catid=339

That is an absolute abomination. The officer should be prosecuted.

Really? But, but, but…you have lived in Alabama, North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, Hawaii, New Jersey and PA and have traveled consistently from Georgia to NJ for a 2 year period as well as Western PA to east NJ and have never encountered what was described in that news report…

So it probably didn’t really happen…

Your comparing aggravated assault to a fucking speeding ticket. I’m sure you’re not embelleshing anything since it did just happen in 1980. Bottom line don’t break the law and you won’t be in trouble. I know it’s hard to follow POSTED limits.

Go and read my last post. I was not speeding when he caught me. I did not embellish a thing. It does not matter whether the incident occurred in 1980, 2009 or 1876. The truth is the truth.

And based on your posts here and elsewhere on this subject I have no doubts that you are the classic example of a law enforcement officer who probably “fools around” a little and “teaches folks a lesson” when it comes to the type things I described.

And yes it is hard to follow posted limits at times. It was especially hard in the 80s when the nationally mandated 55 mph limit was in effect even in places like eastern Montana or Nevada or west Texas or Nebraska or…[/quote]

You don’t really want to start passing judgement on peoples online posting, do you? There is a hell of alot I could assume from your posts. You want to make this personal when I stated I had never seen anything like it yet said it was possible.

The speed limit to maintain federal funding for highways still remains 55 mph, that does not mean I can go 55 where it is posted 40.

snipeout · March 9, 2009, 2:04am

[quote]Loose Tool wrote:
snipeout wrote:
pushharder wrote:
orion wrote:
snipeout wrote:

Just out of curiosity have you ever had a bad experience with a doctor or dentist? If you have would you complain about all doctors and dentists?

Wouldn’t a bad experience with an MD or DMD be more of a critical situation due to your vulnerability at the time?

No, because I choose my doctors carefully, I am free to walk away at any time and they are practically never armed and obsessing about their “authoritay”.

Probably because they earned the trust I put in them and do not expect automatic respect because they can holster a gun without hurting themselves.

Agreed. The doctor/dentist analogy doesn’t work here because the doctor/dentist doesn’t possess the authority to haul your ass off to jail on a whim.

For instance, if I were to question the accuracy of a dental instrument or machine my dentist can’t get miffed and realistically threaten to put me in a cell like that Colorado cop did to me when I questioned the accuracy of his radar gun.

If I’m in a medical doctor’s office and I decide I don’t like his attitude or the way he’s treating my ailment, I can waltz right out of there and never come back. Try doing that with a cop.

Whether power corrupts or power allows corruption to fester the bottom line is the same.

You don’t thinkthe analogy works although you place your life in the hands of doctors everytime you go to one for medication or a medical procedure. I think it works because you are way more likely to be maimed or killed by a doctor than a police officer.

You all are police-phobic yet are more likely to be harmed by a doctor or dentist.

The difference between a harm caused by a doctor and harm caused by a cop is intent. As a cop, you should know that state of mind makes all the difference in the world.

[/quote]

One of the few things you can’t prove in court with out overwhelming evidence or an admission is intent.

Loose_Tool · March 9, 2009, 2:25am

[quote]snipeout wrote:
Loose Tool wrote:
snipeout wrote:
pushharder wrote:
orion wrote:
snipeout wrote: