Police Brutality

[Sloth]

Does the woman a couple blocks down have your number when she’s awoken by a breaking window at 3am? How many of you are prepared to pick up the slack, answering domestic violence calls, minus a police force?

Are you going to leave work, explaining to your boss that you have to head out to a kidnapping scene in your neighborhood so you can take statements and participate in the search? Are you going to pull over those kids that keep blasting through stops signs at double the speed limit through the neighborhood you live in?

[orion]

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Does the woman a couple blocks down have your number when she’s awoken by a breaking window at 3am? How many of you are prepared to pick up the slack, answering domestic violence calls, minus a police force?

Are you going to leave work, explaining to your boss that you have to head out to a kidnapping scene in your neighborhood so you can take statements and participate in the search? Are you going to pull over those kids that keep blasting through stops signs at double the speed limit through the neighborhood you live in? [/quote]

It is interesting that you limit your inquiry to areas that are considered to be traditional police work.

That is regrettable in a way, because it would have been much more amusing had you asked:

Who of you is willing to arrest teenagers for weed or “sexting”? Who is going to hide behind an undetectable stop sign and to lie in court to fulfill a quota? Who of you will shoot pregnant women or beat up innocent black men if all the police are gone?

Limit the police work to those areas that actually warrant state violence and you can fire 80% of all law enforcement officers. If you fire the right ones that should automatically raise their standards.

[Mikeyali]

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Does the woman a couple blocks down have your number when she’s awoken by a breaking window at 3am? [/quote]

Yes, because private or community-led police forces would have billboards saying call 911.[quote]

How many of you are prepared to pick up the slack, answering domestic violence calls, minus a police force?

Are you going to leave work, explaining to your boss that you have to head out to a kidnapping scene in your neighborhood so you can take statements and participate in the search? [/quote]

If there were no police I would do all these things. Sloth you’ve always seemed like a good guy and I trust you would also step up before accepting lawlessness in your community. A volunteer police force could operate very much in the same way a volunteer fire department works.[quote]

Are you going to pull over those kids that keep blasting through stops signs at double the speed limit through the neighborhood you live in? [/quote]

That’s a fair statement, but I don’t see why citizen-police cannot stand post for a few hours every week. When most able-bodied males are doing this you have a full-time police force that is more accountable to the people and more in touch with them.

Notice here I’m not talking about no cops. I’m talking about having citizens police themselves. It’s shameful in my opinion that we have hired others to do a job we should be doing for ourselves.

I trust that most cops are honorable men. They likely joined up for noble reasons. I’m sure many joined up for the action. There’s nothing wrong with that either. But there are just too many. We are delegating authority in ALL facets of our lives and it is making us smaller men and is decidedly anti-republican.

The attitude that has given us our large police force is the same one that made us think that it is okay to vote for a politician every few years then leave politics alone. It’s the attitude that makes us think that we can send our $10 to the NRA every year and then not put in any work for our rights.

We need a full-time detective corps and a small admin corps at the station. The actual beat cops and swat officers should be the citizens.

mike

[snipeout]

[quote]pushharder wrote:
orion wrote:
snipeout wrote:

Just out of curiosity have you ever had a bad experience with a doctor or dentist? If you have would you complain about all doctors and dentists?

Wouldn’t a bad experience with an MD or DMD be more of a critical situation due to your vulnerability at the time?

No, because I choose my doctors carefully, I am free to walk away at any time and they are practically never armed and obsessing about their “authoritay”.

Probably because they earned the trust I put in them and do not expect automatic respect because they can holster a gun without hurting themselves.

Agreed. The doctor/dentist analogy doesn’t work here because the doctor/dentist doesn’t possess the authority to haul your ass off to jail on a whim.

For instance, if I were to question the accuracy of a dental instrument or machine my dentist can’t get miffed and realistically threaten to put me in a cell like that Colorado cop did to me when I questioned the accuracy of his radar gun.

If I’m in a medical doctor’s office and I decide I don’t like his attitude or the way he’s treating my ailment, I can waltz right out of there and never come back. Try doing that with a cop.

Whether power corrupts or power allows corruption to fester the bottom line is the same.

[/quote]

You don’t thinkthe analogy works although you place your life in the hands of doctors everytime you go to one for medication or a medical procedure. I think it works because you are way more likely to be maimed or killed by a doctor than a police officer.

You all are police-phobic yet are more likely to be harmed by a doctor or dentist.

[snipeout]

[quote]Mikeyali wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Does the woman a couple blocks down have your number when she’s awoken by a breaking window at 3am?

Yes, because private or community-led police forces would have billboards saying call 911.

How many of you are prepared to pick up the slack, answering domestic violence calls, minus a police force?

Are you going to leave work, explaining to your boss that you have to head out to a kidnapping scene in your neighborhood so you can take statements and participate in the search?

If there were no police I would do all these things. Sloth you’ve always seemed like a good guy and I trust you would also step up before accepting lawlessness in your community. A volunteer police force could operate very much in the same way a volunteer fire department works.

Are you going to pull over those kids that keep blasting through stops signs at double the speed limit through the neighborhood you live in?

That’s a fair statement, but I don’t see why citizen-police cannot stand post for a few hours every week. When most able-bodied males are doing this you have a full-time police force that is more accountable to the people and more in touch with them.

Notice here I’m not talking about no cops. I’m talking about having citizens police themselves. It’s shameful in my opinion that we have hired others to do a job we should be doing for ourselves.

I trust that most cops are honorable men. They likely joined up for noble reasons. I’m sure many joined up for the action. There’s nothing wrong with that either. But there are just too many. We are delegating authority in ALL facets of our lives and it is making us smaller men and is decidedly anti-republican.

The attitude that has given us our large police force is the same one that made us think that it is okay to vote for a politician every few years then leave politics alone. It’s the attitude that makes us think that we can send our $10 to the NRA every year and then not put in any work for our rights.

We need a full-time detective corps and a small admin corps at the station. The actual beat cops and swat officers should be the citizens.

mike[/quote]

Mike, although I agree with alot of what you are saying I think you are a little disillusioned. Most people won’t stop to help an old lady having her purse snatched, or a man being beaten down in front of 20 people in a pizzeria. These are the same people you expect to walk housing projects on a voluntary basis?

Volunteer firefighting is reactive, policing needs to be as proactive as possible.

[Mikeyali]

[quote]snipeout wrote:

Mike, although I agree with alot of what you are saying I think you are a little disillusioned. Most people won’t stop to help an old lady having her purse snatched, or a man being beaten down in front of 20 people in a pizzeria.

These are the same people you expect to walk housing projects on a voluntary basis?[/quote]

Fair statement. But as I said, by delegating our responsibility as citizens to the police we have created small people. I would believe you would begin to see Americans regain their backbone when the responsibility were thrust upon them.

In other words, the above examples are the result of having police do our duty rather than a reason we need police.

mike

[Sloth]

You know what scares me more than local police? Bubba and his boys deciding they’re the local ‘private’ law. If authority and power corrupt, one isn’t immune because one’s day job is check-out clerk at Target.

Why would private armed volunteers be any less prone to the powertrip? Why would the talent pool be any better? Would we all go through the psych, polygraph, and background checks professional officers go through?

Would we really? Especially if we wouldn’t be dependent on the line of work for our entire livelihood? And after making it through the screening process, one or two domestic violences calls and most would probably be like “do this as a volunteer? I don’t think so!”

Another thing Mike, how would we step up to stop lawlessness in our neighborhoods? Stop people when they look suspicious? Detain them if they seem to fit a description? Chase them down for running our redlights? Tackle them when they refuse to comply?

Tell the pimps they can’t show their whores in our neighborhoods? Pretty soon, we’d be seen as the power mad volunteer police. “The Man.” And the true bad apples (they’re not going away) would tarnish our image further.

When I see video of at least a half dozen men stand by and watch one unarmed (even if he was large) man assault another much smaller man in a pizza joint, I have to question just how active volunteer police would be in chasing down 911 calls at all hours, to any scene, with who knows what waiting for them.

[LIFTICVSMAXIMVS]

[quote]snipeout wrote:
Most people won’t stop to help an old lady having her purse snatched, or a man being beaten down in front of 20 people in a pizzeria. These are the same people you expect to walk housing projects on a voluntary basis?

Volunteer firefighting is reactive, policing needs to be as proactive as possible.

[/quote]

Ha, ha! Proactive?! you mean like speed-traps and vice-squads? I have never heard of cops stopping crimes except in the movies.

Oh wait, I take that back. We just had a huge drug bust here in the Twin Cities that kept over $64 million dollars of product out of the community. Now there will probably be more violence to make up for all the losses. Yeah, now that is proactive.

Give me a break. Fire departments are way more proactive than cops. They actually inspect their customer’s property in some places to make sure there are no fire hazards, paid for by insurance policies if you can believe that.

[LIFTICVSMAXIMVS]

[quote]Sloth wrote:
You know what scares me more than local police? Bubba and his boys deciding they’re the local ‘private’ law. If authority and power corrupt, one isn’t immune because one’s day job is check-out clerk at Target.

Why would private armed volunteers be any less prone to the powertrip?[/quote]

What makes you think that Bubba isn’t already working for “the law”?

Voluntary “law” enforcement will be based on “laws” of private property. These individuals are not hired to harass and intimidate customers into obsequiousness.

They are hired to keep customers safe and ensure private property is not damaged. If they fail that task they will be fired and not given a paid leave while all their buddies take up collections for them and talk about what heroes they are.

As far as vigilantism is concerned, I think this is too far fetched for the same reason you cite about people standing by while watching a crime happen. But I also believe that a well armed society with a greater respect for private property would have less to worry about.

[Sloth]

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

Voluntary “law” enforcement will be based on “laws” of private property. These individuals are not hired to harass and intimidate customers into obsequiousness.

They are hired to keep customers safe and ensure private property is not damaged. If they fail that task they will be fired and not given a paid leave while all their buddies take up collections for them and talk about what heroes they are.

As far as vigilantism is concerned, I think this is too far fetched for the same reason you cite about people standing by while watching a crime happen. But I also believe that a well armed society with a greater respect for private property would have less to worry about.[/quote]

Voluntary “law” enforcement would be based on “laws” of private property? Not sure what all that could end up encompassing. Drugs and prostitution driving property values down?

Prohibition, again. And why wouldn’t laws simply expand to give volunteers the same power as the professional officer? After all, the professional officer didn’t enact drug laws, for example. The people’s elected representatives did.

[snipeout]

[quote]pushharder wrote:
snipeout wrote:
pushharder wrote:
orion wrote:
snipeout wrote:

Just out of curiosity have you ever had a bad experience with a doctor or dentist? If you have would you complain about all doctors and dentists?

Wouldn’t a bad experience with an MD or DMD be more of a critical situation due to your vulnerability at the time?

No, because I choose my doctors carefully, I am free to walk away at any time and they are practically never armed and obsessing about their “authoritay”.

Probably because they earned the trust I put in them and do not expect automatic respect because they can holster a gun without hurting themselves.

Agreed. The doctor/dentist analogy doesn’t work here because the doctor/dentist doesn’t possess the authority to haul your ass off to jail on a whim.

For instance, if I were to question the accuracy of a dental instrument or machine my dentist can’t get miffed and realistically threaten to put me in a cell like that Colorado cop did to me when I questioned the accuracy of his radar gun.

If I’m in a medical doctor’s office and I decide I don’t like his attitude or the way he’s treating my ailment, I can waltz right out of there and never come back. Try doing that with a cop.

Whether power corrupts or power allows corruption to fester the bottom line is the same.

You don’t thinkthe analogy works although you place your life in the hands of doctors everytime you go to one for medication or a medical procedure. I think it works because you are way more likely to be maimed or killed by a doctor than a police officer.

You all are police-phobic yet are more likely to be harmed by a doctor or dentist.

No, the analogy doesn’t work because we’re talking the abuse of authority here not ignorance, incompetence or lack of skill.

I’ve been to a lot of doctors and dentists (not really that many but…) and none of 'em has ever come close to maiming or killing me. However, a fair percentage of encounters with law enforcement have resulted in abuse of authority or threatened abuse.

It’s just not the same thing.

Another example: again a speeding ticket - 57 in a 50 on a rural Tennessee highway. No traffic. Lazy, warm summer afternoon. Cop made me leave my semi on the shoulder, get in his patrol car, ride the 10 miles to town and pay the $70 fine in cash. When I asked him what would have happened if I didn’t have the $70 bucks on me he replied, “You would have spent the night in jail.”

Yeah, that’s right, incarcerated in the county jail with a bunch of lowlifes (and other speeders?) overnight in a jail cell WITHOUT A HEARING OR TRIAL because I was going SEVEN miles over the speed limit on a country road in the summertime and posing NO risk whatsoever to the fine citizens of Tennessee.

Now tell me more about doctors and dentists and how then can detain me without a valid reason.

[/quote]

You are at their mercy when being treated just as you are at a police officers mercy when breaking the law. I find it hard to believe you were issued a speeding ticket and made to pay it on the spot.

I have had more than one ticket in small towns and they have always had a date and address to mail the payment to. Laws vary by state, but unless you had unpaid violations where a bench warrant was issued to NCIC somewhere else a speeding ticket will not land you in jail.

[LIFTICVSMAXIMVS]

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Voluntary “law” enforcement would be based on “laws” of private property? Not sure what all that could end up encompassing. Drugs and prostitution driving property values down? Prohibition, again.

And why wouldn’t laws simply expand to give volunteers the same power as the professional officer? After all, the professional officer didn’t enact drug laws, for example. The people’s elected representatives did.[/quote]

It’s simple. I own property. I hire someone to keep it and everyone on it safe. None that I do not contract with can come on my on property and uphold laws they feel are “necessary” out of their own need to be a do-gooder.

Prostitution drives property prices down? Active commerce never drives property prices down; rather it is the cops always parked outside of one’s property that will. That is why as a pimp I would hire this guy.

[snipeout]

With out laws and regulations how do you keep ownership. If I want your ‘property’ all I need is to hire 2 someones to take it. Since there are no laws, there are no reprecussions for your dead body in a pig trough.

Do you see how the inherently evil drug dealer would now just go into the property acquisition trade? There is just a large enough portion of the population that wants something for nothing, thats why there are laws and people to enforce them.

[snipeout]

[quote]pushharder wrote:
snipeout wrote:
pushharder wrote:
snipeout wrote:
pushharder wrote:
orion wrote:
snipeout wrote:

Just out of curiosity have you ever had a bad experience with a doctor or dentist? If you have would you complain about all doctors and dentists?

Wouldn’t a bad experience with an MD or DMD be more of a critical situation due to your vulnerability at the time?

No, because I choose my doctors carefully, I am free to walk away at any time and they are practically never armed and obsessing about their “authoritay”.

Probably because they earned the trust I put in them and do not expect automatic respect because they can holster a gun without hurting themselves.

Agreed. The doctor/dentist analogy doesn’t work here because the doctor/dentist doesn’t possess the authority to haul your ass off to jail on a whim.

For instance, if I were to question the accuracy of a dental instrument or machine my dentist can’t get miffed and realistically threaten to put me in a cell like that Colorado cop did to me when I questioned the accuracy of his radar gun.

If I’m in a medical doctor’s office and I decide I don’t like his attitude or the way he’s treating my ailment, I can waltz right out of there and never come back. Try doing that with a cop.

Whether power corrupts or power allows corruption to fester the bottom line is the same.

You don’t thinkthe analogy works although you place your life in the hands of doctors everytime you go to one for medication or a medical procedure. I think it works because you are way more likely to be maimed or killed by a doctor than a police officer.

You all are police-phobic yet are more likely to be harmed by a doctor or dentist.

No, the analogy doesn’t work because we’re talking the abuse of authority here not ignorance, incompetence or lack of skill.

I’ve been to a lot of doctors and dentists (not really that many but…) and none of 'em has ever come close to maiming or killing me. However, a fair percentage of encounters with law enforcement have resulted in abuse of authority or threatened abuse.

It’s just not the same thing.

Another example: again a speeding ticket - 57 in a 50 on a rural Tennessee highway. No traffic. Lazy, warm summer afternoon.

Cop made me leave my semi on the shoulder, get in his patrol car, ride the 10 miles to town and pay the $70 fine in cash. When I asked him what would have happened if I didn’t have the $70 bucks on me he replied, “You would have spent the night in jail.”

Yeah, that’s right, incarcerated in the county jail with a bunch of lowlifes (and other speeders?) overnight in a jail cell WITHOUT A HEARING OR TRIAL because I was going SEVEN miles over the speed limit on a country road in the summertime and posing NO risk whatsoever to the fine citizens of Tennessee.

Now tell me more about doctors and dentists and how then can detain me without a valid reason.

You are at their mercy when being treated just as you are at a police officers mercy when breaking the law. I find it hard to believe you were issued a speeding ticket and made to pay it on the spot.

I have had more than one ticket in small towns and they have always had a date and address to mail the payment to. Laws vary by state, but unless you had unpaid violations where a bench warrant was issued to NCIC somewhere else a speeding ticket will not land you in jail.

Buddy, the story happened EXACTLY the way I stated it with the exception that I WASN’T speeding when he caught me. I had heard on the CB radio a mile or two back that he was waiting ahead past the crest of a hill and I had already slowed down to the speed limit when he encountered me. Didn’t matter. There was revenue to be raised, a quota to be met or whatever.

I did not have a bench warrant against me and had never been pulled over or arrested in Tennessee before. There was no NCIC deal at that time (1980).

As far as it being “hard to believe…and made to pay on the spot”, I’ll chalk that one up to you not getting around as much as I have.

It exists. I have had a Colorado cop between Denver and Colorado Springs insist on following me to a US mailbox and watch me drop the cash in an envelope in the mailbox before he would release me. Just a simple speeding ticket on I-25, nothing more.

[/quote]

I have lived in Alabama, North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, Hawaii, New Jersey and PA. I have traveled consistently from Georgia to NJ for a 2 year period as well as Western PA to east NJ and have never encountered what you describe. I am not saying it doesn’t exsist just that I have never seen it.

FYI, NCIC has been in exsistence since 1967.

[Sloth]

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

It’s simple. I own property. I hire someone to keep it and everyone on it safe. None that I do not contract with can come on my on property and uphold laws they feel are “necessary” out of their own need to be a do-gooder.

Prostitution drives property prices down? Active commerce never drives property prices down; rather it is the cops always parked outside of one’s property that will. That is why as a pimp I would hire this guy.

[/quote]

So everyone on it is subject to your law. And every neighbor surrounding you, the same. Perhaps millions of little private armies. And when Billy Bob assualts your family member at the supermarket, you’re going to send your private police/military force to confront Billy Bob and his private army?

Of course, those private armies will devolve quickly into having as many children and indentured servants as possible (“you can’t afford to hire your own protection? sign this 7 year servitude contract, and I’ll handle that”), so as to be the regional powerhouse.

Starting out small, blood fueds will be the law of the land. Later, people will form government and professional armies/police to defend against bandit kings who give two craps about your private property and a handful of warriors per family cap.

Of course, as some progress more than others, you’ll end up with a bunch of new and growing fiefdoms destined to run into conflict with each other. And some of those, will eventually become empires.

[LIFTICVSMAXIMVS]

[quote]snipeout wrote:
With out laws and regulations how do you keep ownership. If I want your ‘property’ all I need is to hire 2 someones to take it. Since there are no laws, there are no reprecussions for your dead body in a pig trough.
[/quote]

Why do you keep bringing up this strawman? No one is talking about “no laws”.

What you say is true regardless of whether there are laws that make this example illegal or not. You, as an enforcer of laws, cannot stop someone from taking anything they want from me. Only I or someone within direct striking distance can do that.

Laws don’t stop people from acting. Defensiveness does.

Seriously man, you do not lend any credit to your brethren.

[Loose_Tool]

[quote]snipeout wrote:
pushharder wrote:
orion wrote:
snipeout wrote:

Just out of curiosity have you ever had a bad experience with a doctor or dentist? If you have would you complain about all doctors and dentists?

Wouldn’t a bad experience with an MD or DMD be more of a critical situation due to your vulnerability at the time?

No, because I choose my doctors carefully, I am free to walk away at any time and they are practically never armed and obsessing about their “authoritay”.

Probably because they earned the trust I put in them and do not expect automatic respect because they can holster a gun without hurting themselves.

Agreed. The doctor/dentist analogy doesn’t work here because the doctor/dentist doesn’t possess the authority to haul your ass off to jail on a whim.

For instance, if I were to question the accuracy of a dental instrument or machine my dentist can’t get miffed and realistically threaten to put me in a cell like that Colorado cop did to me when I questioned the accuracy of his radar gun.

If I’m in a medical doctor’s office and I decide I don’t like his attitude or the way he’s treating my ailment, I can waltz right out of there and never come back. Try doing that with a cop.

Whether power corrupts or power allows corruption to fester the bottom line is the same.

You don’t thinkthe analogy works although you place your life in the hands of doctors everytime you go to one for medication or a medical procedure. I think it works because you are way more likely to be maimed or killed by a doctor than a police officer.

You all are police-phobic yet are more likely to be harmed by a doctor or dentist.

[/quote]

The difference between a harm caused by a doctor and harm caused by a cop is intent. As a cop, you should know that state of mind makes all the difference in the world.