Planned Parenthood

[Joe_Pears]

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/07/15/planned-parenthood-facing-investigations-over-abhorrent-video-on-body-part/?intcmp=latestnews

Absolutely fucking disgusting. [/quote]

Why let aborted dead Fetus’s go to waste when they can go to research labs to try and further our ability to understand and combat and cure disease, cancers etc that affect not currently dead people? What should be done with them? Should they be individually buried in tiny coffins serving no use to anybody ?

This isn’t disgusting, just like donating my body to other people or science when I die is not absolutely fucking disgusting but the obvious thing to do. Even if someone if pro-life surely they are not against medical research ?

[opeth7opeth]

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]Alrightmiami19c wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

Define innocent.

[/quote]

If an unborn child can not be defined as innocent, what can be?

[/quote]

Well, that’s what we need to ascertain.

Hence my question about Original Sin. If you are a Christian, and your particular flavour of Christianity adheres to the doctrine of Original Sin, then you must believe that at some point, the guilt of the original sin in the Garden of Eden is imputed onto every living human being. My question is, does this guilt accrue at birth, or at conception?

If at birth, then yes, an unborn infant is innocent. If at conception, then nope. Guilty as hell.[/quote]

Hello, Varqanir. Did you ever at any time in your life profess to be a Bible-believing Christian? The reason I ask is that many times a person who has initially professed to be a Christian, and then later renounces that empty profession show themselves to be quite ignorant of the Bible they do not believe in.

Regarding your comments. Obviously infants are innocent with respect to being murdered before the eyes of Dr. Hatchet dressed in white who apparently sleeps very well at night. But when it comes to innocence before the eyes of God’s law and justice then every son and daughter of Adam is “guilty as hell,” being void of a righteousness that equals God’s righteousness. God is infinitely holy and righteous, and He cannot fellowship with anyone who has less than perfect righteousness (Exodus 20:5; Deuteronomy 4:24, 5:9, 27:26; Psalm 130:3; Isaiah 6:5, 28:17; Habakkuk 1:13; Matthew 5:20; Romans 3:19; Galatians 3:10; Hebrews 10:28-31).

Is your argument IF the infant is guilty in the eyes of God’s law and justice, THEN it follows that they should be murdered?

These passages below apply to you Varqanir just as much as to infants, but that does not give someone leave to jam scissors into your head.

Romans 5:12: “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.”

Romans 5:19: “For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.”

Romans 6:23: “For the wages of sin is death.”

Psalm 51:5: “Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.”

Psalm 58:3: “The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.”

Romans 3:23: “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.”

Romans 8:7-8: “…the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.”

Matthew 19:18: “And Jesus said, You shall not commit murder.”

[opeth7opeth]

[quote]Joe Pears wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/07/15/planned-parenthood-facing-investigations-over-abhorrent-video-on-body-part/?intcmp=latestnews

Absolutely fucking disgusting. [/quote]

Why let aborted dead Fetus’s go to waste when they can go to research labs to try and further our ability to understand and combat and cure disease, cancers etc that affect not currently dead people? What should be done with them? Should they be individually buried in tiny coffins serving no use to anybody ?

This isn’t disgusting, just like donating my body to other people or science when I die is not absolutely fucking disgusting but the obvious thing to do. Even if someone if pro-life surely they are not against medical research ?[/quote]

One particular pundit wrote:

[quote]" … our nation is profoundly schizophrenic on this issue, and their inconsistency must be pressed hard, especially now. In other words, everyone is outraged because the body parts were sold to traffickers, instead of being thrown into the dumpster. Got that? Our nation wants to retain its self-respect on this issue through arbitrary legalisms. But surely the heart of the crime is the murder itself, and not the disposal of the body?"

“This is one difference between ISIS and the Democratic abortion rights coalition, one that shows that the latter is trying to do their dirty business in a society that still has a residual conscience. Both are willing to pursue their respective beheadings, the former because they believe Allah wills it and the latter because Mammon beckons with a Lamborghini. But in both cases, someone has their head chopped off. That part is similar. But ISIS beheadings are usually done on a beach in broad daylight in order to strike fear in the hearts of their adversaries. Planned Parenthood beheadings are done out of sight because they think that if all the baby parts were to be sold publicly, people might come away with the wrong impression.”[/quote]

[Varqanir]

[quote]opeth7opeth wrote:

Hello, Varqanir. [/quote]

Hello, opeth7opeth.

Did you ever at any time in your life profess to be a Bible-believing Christian?

Yes.

The reason I ask is that many times a person who has initially professed to be a Christian, and then later renounces that empty profession show themselves to be quite ignorant of the Bible they do not believe in.

I know, right? People like that are so annoying.

Regarding your comments. Obviously infants are innocent with respect to being murdered before the eyes of Dr. Hatchet dressed in white who apparently sleeps very well at night.

Did you intend that to rhyme, or was that just a happy coincidence?

But when it comes to innocence before the eyes of God’s law and justice then every son and daughter of Adam is “guilty as hell,” being void of a righteousness that equals God’s righteousness.

Precisely the point I was hoping to make. So glad you caught it.

[quote]God is infinitely holy and righteous, and He cannot fellowship with anyone who has less than perfect righteousness (Exodus 20:5; Deuteronomy 4:24, 5:9, 27:26; Psalm 130:3; Isaiah 6:5, 28:17; Habakkuk 1:13; Matthew 5:20; Romans 3:19; Galatians 3:10; Hebrews 10:28-31).

Is your argument IF the infant is guilty in the eyes of God’s law and justice, THEN it follows that they should be murdered? [/quote]

No. I don’t think I have ever argued that any infant should be murdered: I was simply making the somewhat pedantic and slightly sarcastic observation that by the standards of the great majority of people who revolt against the murder of “innocent babies”, the babies are not, in fact, innocent.

[quote]These passages below apply to you Varqanir just as much as to infants, but that does not give someone leave to jam scissors into your head.

Romans 5:12: “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.”

Romans 5:19: “For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.”

Romans 6:23: “For the wages of sin is death.”[/quote]

And everybody collects their wages eventually. Some sooner than others. Aborted fetuses sooner than anybody.

Psalm 51:5: “Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.”

Yes. There it is. As soon as they are conceived.

Psalm 58:3: “The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.”

Oh wait… as soon as they are born. I wish the psalmist would make up his mind. But I agree. There is nothing worse than a wicked newborn infant liar.

[quote]Romans 3:23: “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.”

Romans 8:7-8: “…the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.”

Matthew 19:18: “And Jesus said, You shall not commit murder.”
[/quote]

Yes precisely. Nobody is innocent, especially not me.

And who is to say that the scissors-wielding maniac who jams his weapon into my skull is not acting in accordance with the Great Cosmic Plan of the Almighty? Nobody can predict how or when he or she is going to shuffle off this mortal coil, maybe it is God’s will that some of us die in our beds at the ripe old age of eighty, while others of us have scissors driven into our crania.

But then, does God really care exactly how we die? Or is God more concerned with how we conduct ourselves in the absolutely infinitesimal period of time between conception and expiration? I imagine that to God, a human lifespan seems like the lifespan of a quark does to us. Does a researcher at the Large Hadron Collider care how a quark meets its demise? Or is he more interested in all the cool spirally moves it makes in the trillionth of a second that it exists?

And if all souls are immortal and will someday return to God, to be judged and either eternally rewarded or punished according to their conduct in the infinitesimal time they assumed corporeal form in this plane of existence, it seems that the smart move, from the point of view of the soul, would be to be aborted early on, before the opportunity to commit any real sins of one’s own could ever present itself.

Who knows? Maybe in the Great Cosmic Scheme of Things, the aborted fetuses are the lucky ones.

[Varqanir]

[quote]opeth7opeth wrote:

" … our nation is profoundly schizophrenic on this issue, and their inconsistency must be pressed hard, especially now. In other words, everyone is outraged because the body parts were sold to traffickers, instead of being thrown into the dumpster. Got that? Our nation wants to retain its self-respect on this issue through arbitrary legalisms. But surely the heart of the crime is the murder itself, and not the disposal of the body?"
[/quote]

Pretty much what I’ve been saying from the beginning of this thread.

Then again, our nation is profoundly schizophrenic about a lot of things.

[Alrightmiami19c]

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]Alrightmiami19c wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

Define innocent.

[/quote]

If an unborn child can not be defined as innocent, what can be?

[/quote]

Well, that’s what we need to ascertain.

Hence my question about Original Sin. If you are a Christian, and your particular flavour of Christianity adheres to the doctrine of Original Sin, then you must believe that at some point, the guilt of the original sin in the Garden of Eden is imputed onto every living human being. My question is, does this guilt accrue at birth, or at conception?

If at birth, then yes, an unborn infant is innocent. If at conception, then nope. Guilty as hell.[/quote]

If you believe that original sin destroys innocence to the point that life is not warranted, why would life exist? Wouldn’t it have simply ended with Adam and Eve? Would your definition of guilt based on original sin justify all murder, because nobody can be considered innocent, and therefore nobody can be a victim?

Also let me say this, an unborn child is the definition of innocence. Why? Because it is. Not every little thing has to be picked apart and debated to the point that it holds no significance.

[Joe_Pears]

[quote]Alrightmiami19c wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]Alrightmiami19c wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

Define innocent.

[/quote]

If an unborn child can not be defined as innocent, what can be?

[/quote]

Well, that’s what we need to ascertain.

Hence my question about Original Sin. If you are a Christian, and your particular flavour of Christianity adheres to the doctrine of Original Sin, then you must believe that at some point, the guilt of the original sin in the Garden of Eden is imputed onto every living human being. My question is, does this guilt accrue at birth, or at conception?

If at birth, then yes, an unborn infant is innocent. If at conception, then nope. Guilty as hell.[/quote]

If you believe that original sin destroys innocence to the point that life is not warranted, why would life exist? Wouldn’t it have simply ended with Adam and Eve? Would your definition of guilt based on original sin justify all murder, because nobody can be considered innocent, and therefore nobody can be a victim?

Also let me say this, an unborn child is the definition of innocence. Why? Because it is. Not every little thing has to be picked apart and debated to the point that it holds no significance.
[/quote]

Isn’t that the point an atheist makes ? That it does not make sense and should hold no such significance. Thus the outrage about this topic is unwarranted because either
A) Babies are no more innocent than any of us because of biblical teaching and original sin
Or
B) God is not real and morality is subjective and using aborted foetus’s for science is perfectly valid.

[Joe_Pears]

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Joe Pears wrote:

If you believe that original sin destroys innocence to the point that life is not warranted, why would life exist? Wouldn’t it have simply ended with Adam and Eve? Would your definition of guilt based on original sin justify all murder, because nobody can be considered innocent, and therefore nobody can be a victim?

[/quote]

Didn’t the church teach that dead unbaptised children were in limbo for eternity for 99.9% of christian history ?

Also let me say this, an unborn child is the definition of innocence. Why? Because it is. Not every little thing has to be picked apart and debated to the point that it holds no significance.
[/quote]

Isn’t that the point an atheist makes ? That it does not make sense and should hold no such significance. Thus the outrage about this topic is unwarranted because either
A) Babies are no more innocent than any of us because of biblical teaching and original sin

[/quote]

This is an ignorant understanding of original sin. It was when Varq said it and it is when you do too. Both of you look like foolish discussing something like this when it’s obvious you don’t have a grasp on the theology.

Stick with something you better versed in. For your own good.

Or
B) God is not real and morality is subjective and using aborted foetus’s for science is perfectly valid.

If your assumption is correct your conclusion might very well be too.
[/quote]

[Varqanir]

[quote]Alrightmiami19c wrote:

If you believe that original sin destroys innocence to the point that life is not warranted, why would life exist? Wouldn’t it have simply ended with Adam and Eve? Would your definition of guilt based on original sin justify all murder, because nobody can be considered innocent, and therefore nobody can be a victim?[/quote]

See my response to opeth7opeth if you get the chance.

Also let me say this, an unborn child is the definition of innocence. Why? Because it is.

Tautological argument is tautological.

Not every little thing has to be picked apart and debated to the point that it holds no significance.

Picked apart like a dead baby in a Planned Parenthood clinic, you mean?

This is an internet forum. Of course it does. No debate may end until Godwin’s law is invoked.

[opeth7opeth]

opeth7opeth wrote: Is your argument IF the infant is guilty in the eyes of God’s law and justice, THEN it follows that they should be murdered?

Varqanir wrote: No. I don’t think I have ever argued that any infant should be murdered: I was simply making the somewhat pedantic and slightly sarcastic observation that by the standards of the great majority of people who revolt against the murder of “innocent babies”, the babies are not, in fact, innocent.

You do realize a term like “innocent” has a reference point, yes? Innocent relative to what? Innocent in relation to what? Innocent of what? Here’s an example of what I’m getting at:

“These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren” (Proverbs 6:16-19).

Things like context and defining of terms is kind of important, methinks.

Psalm 51:5: “Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.”

[quote]Varqanir wrote: Yes. There it is. As soon as they are conceived.

Psalm 58:3: “The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.”

Varqanir wrote: Oh wait… as soon as they are born. I wish the psalmist would make up his mind. But I agree. There is nothing worse than a wicked newborn infant liar.[/quote]

Going astray as soon as they are born is the result of being shapen in iniquity upon conception. Adam’s sin is imputed upon conception and the result of this imputation is going astray as soon as they be born. No incongruity here.

[Varqanir]

[quote]Joe Pears wrote:

Didn’t the church teach that dead unbaptised children were in limbo for eternity for 99.9% of christian history ? [/quote]

Limbo of infants (Limbus infantum) was never a defined doctrine of the Catholic church, just one of several hypotheses to explain what happened to people who died before baptism, before they could commit any sins, but still not purged of Original Sin.

This did not keep some less-scrupulous churchmen from collecting indulgences from gullible worshippers in the mistaken hope that the money they spent would bump the tiny soul out of its place in Limbo and into a better place.

Which is worse? Accepting money for pieces of a dead baby’s body, or accepting money on behalf of its soul?

[Varqanir]

[quote]opeth7opeth wrote:

opeth7opeth wrote: Is your argument IF the infant is guilty in the eyes of God’s law and justice, THEN it follows that they should be murdered?

Varqanir wrote: No. I don’t think I have ever argued that any infant should be murdered: I was simply making the somewhat pedantic and slightly sarcastic observation that by the standards of the great majority of people who revolt against the murder of “innocent babies”, the babies are not, in fact, innocent.

You do realize a term like “innocent” has a reference point, yes? Innocent relative to what? Innocent in relation to what? Innocent of what? Here’s an example of what I’m getting at:

“These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren” (Proverbs 6:16-19).

Things like context and defining of terms is kind of important, methinks.

Psalm 51:5: “Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.”

[quote]Varqanir wrote: Yes. There it is. As soon as they are conceived.

Psalm 58:3: “The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.”

Varqanir wrote: Oh wait… as soon as they are born. I wish the psalmist would make up his mind. But I agree. There is nothing worse than a wicked newborn infant liar.[/quote]

Going astray as soon as they are born is the result of being shapen in iniquity upon conception. Adam’s sin is imputed upon conception and the result of this imputation is going astray as soon as they be born. No incongruity here.
[/quote]

Fair enough.

And yes, definition of terms is always important. Hence the first two words of my post to Alrightmiami: “define innocent”.

[Varqanir]

[quote]pushharder wrote:

This is an ignorant understanding of original sin. It was when Varq said it and it is when you do too. Both of you look like foolish discussing something like this when it’s obvious you don’t have a grasp on the theology.
[/quote]

Out of curiosity, what part of the doctrine of Original Sin do you imagine I am misunderstanding?

[Alrightmiami19c]

[quote]pushharder wrote:

This is an ignorant understanding of original sin. It was when Varq said it and it is when you do too. Both of you look like foolish discussing something like this when it’s obvious you don’t have a grasp on the theology.

Stick with something you better versed in. For your own good.

[/quote]
Push, my point is that original sin brought death, not an end to birth. We must all face death as a consequence, however we are still born. We are given a chance at salvation.

[Alrightmiami19c]

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

Tautological argument is tautological.

[/quote]

Truth is truth. Selling parts of an unborn child is wrong.

[anon50325502]

[quote]Joe Pears wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/07/15/planned-parenthood-facing-investigations-over-abhorrent-video-on-body-part/?intcmp=latestnews

Absolutely fucking disgusting. [/quote]

Why let aborted dead Fetus’s go to waste when they can go to research labs to try and further our ability to understand and combat and cure disease, cancers etc that affect not currently dead people? What should be done with them? Should they be individually buried in tiny coffins serving no use to anybody ?

This isn’t disgusting, just like donating my body to other people or science when I die is not absolutely fucking disgusting but the obvious thing to do. Even if someone if pro-life surely they are not against medical research ?[/quote]

Chopping up defenseless babies and selling them is fucking disgusting. I am an organ donor, it is a completely different thing altogether.

Life > curing cancer in my book.

[Joe_Pears]

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]Joe Pears wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/07/15/planned-parenthood-facing-investigations-over-abhorrent-video-on-body-part/?intcmp=latestnews

Absolutely fucking disgusting. [/quote]

Why let aborted dead Fetus’s go to waste when they can go to research labs to try and further our ability to understand and combat and cure disease, cancers etc that affect not currently dead people? What should be done with them? Should they be individually buried in tiny coffins serving no use to anybody ?

This isn’t disgusting, just like donating my body to other people or science when I die is not absolutely fucking disgusting but the obvious thing to do. Even if someone if pro-life surely they are not against medical research ?[/quote]

Chopping up defenseless babies and selling them is fucking disgusting. I am an organ donor, it is a completely different thing altogether.

Life > curing cancer in my book. [/quote]

How is it though? How is it any different than a regular donor situation? These foetuses have already been killed, they are dead, so why throw them in the waste bin instead of using them for transplant and research that can save kids who are alive?

Where is this drama coming from? In the civilised world abortion is a woman’s right. That will never revert, so there will be lots of dead foetuses and we might as well put them to good use.

[Varqanir]

[quote]Joe Pears wrote:

In the civilised world abortion is a woman’s right. That will never revert[/quote]

Assuming, of course, that the United States remain a member of the civilised world.