[quote]Varqanir wrote:
[quote]Joe Pears wrote:
In the civilised world abortion is a woman’s right. That will never revert[/quote]
Assuming, of course, that the United States remain a member of the civilised world. [/quote]
I got a chuckle out of the use of the word civilized in this sort of reference. Abortion is distinctly uncivilized and barbaric. Similar to what the Spartans did with killing unwanted babies. It’s about as uncivilized as possible.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
[quote]Joe Pears wrote:
In the civilised world abortion is a woman’s right. That will never revert[/quote]
Assuming, of course, that the United States remain a member of the civilised world. [/quote]
I got a chuckle out of the use of the word civilized in this sort of reference. Abortion is distinctly uncivilized and barbaric. Similar to what the Spartans did with killing unwanted babies. It’s about as uncivilized as possible.[/quote]
Abortion rights
Saudi Arabia none
Yemen none
Uganda none
Iran none
Syria none
Great Britain legal
United States legal
France legal
Sweden legal
Israel legal
I would rather we be more like the U.S, U.K, Israel etc than Saudi Arabia, Iran and every other backwards shit hole.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
[quote]Joe Pears wrote:
In the civilised world abortion is a woman’s right. That will never revert[/quote]
Assuming, of course, that the United States remain a member of the civilised world. [/quote]
I got a chuckle out of the use of the word civilized in this sort of reference. Abortion is distinctly uncivilized and barbaric. Similar to what the Spartans did with killing unwanted babies. It’s about as uncivilized as possible.[/quote]
So the red countries are the civilised ones, and the green counties are the barbaric ones. Got it.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
[quote]Joe Pears wrote:
In the civilised world abortion is a woman’s right. That will never revert[/quote]
Assuming, of course, that the United States remain a member of the civilised world. [/quote]
I got a chuckle out of the use of the word civilized in this sort of reference. Abortion is distinctly uncivilized and barbaric. Similar to what the Spartans did with killing unwanted babies. It’s about as uncivilized as possible.[/quote]
So the red countries are the civilised ones, and the green counties are the barbaric ones. Got it.[/quote]
I know you’re not falling for this bullshit right?
Couple hundred years ago the “civilized” world had salves to do all that “uncivilized” manual labor.
The original statement was fucking stupid on it’s face. The murder of babies for convenience is uncivilized, irrelevant of what the law says, or what country the law originates from.
The whole “it will never revert” nonsense is just that, utter tripe.
Civilized populations don’t murder for convince.
[quote]Joe Pears wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]Joe Pears wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/07/15/planned-parenthood-facing-investigations-over-abhorrent-video-on-body-part/?intcmp=latestnews
Absolutely fucking disgusting. [/quote]
Why let aborted dead Fetus’s go to waste when they can go to research labs to try and further our ability to understand and combat and cure disease, cancers etc that affect not currently dead people? What should be done with them? Should they be individually buried in tiny coffins serving no use to anybody ?
This isn’t disgusting, just like donating my body to other people or science when I die is not absolutely fucking disgusting but the obvious thing to do. Even if someone if pro-life surely they are not against medical research ?[/quote]
Chopping up defenseless babies and selling them is fucking disgusting. I am an organ donor, it is a completely different thing altogether.
Life > curing cancer in my book. [/quote]
How is it though? How is it any different than a regular donor situation? [/quote]
In a regular donor situation the donee makes the decision to be a donor. The baby has no choice. It’s killed, chopped up, and then sold. It’s completely different.
[quote]
These foetuses have already been killed, [/quote]
Against their will.
[quote]
they are dead, so why throw them in the waste bin instead of using them for transplant and research that can save kids who are alive? [/quote]
These kids would also be alive if we didn’t allow them to be killed in the first place
They shouldn’t be dead and they should not be sold for profit, ever.
[quote]
Where is this drama coming from? In the civilised world abortion is a woman’s right. [/quote]
Civilized, lol…
[quote]
That will never revert, so there will be lots of dead foetuses and we might as well put them to good use.[/quote]
I believe it will. I whole heartily believe future generations will look at us the same way we look at former slave owners.
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
I believe it will. I whole heartily believe future generations will look at us the same way we look at former slave owners.[/quote]
This. Happy to be on the right side of history myself, even if people today think I’m a “fringe freak”.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
[quote]Alrightmiami19c wrote:
it doesn’t get more innocent than in the womb.
[/quote]
Quick question for those of you who believe in such things:
Would you say that the guilt of Original and Imputed Sins is conferred upon all mankind at the moment of birth, at the moment of conception, or somewhere along the gestational way?
[/quote]
Interesting enough question.
I do believe that we are all born with an inherent sin nature. With my limited knowledge, I would have to say at conception. Or is it before? And somehow a part of our DNA. Perhaps the seed itself is already tainted. Or is it more complicated? And God does not really need a location or place, if you will, to attach the sin to… Maybe it is one of those things we have to take at face value. “Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned…”
I read that as being born into death, and born into sin. And being born, the start of life, I would say means the point of conception. Soooo, I started as a sinner. Thank God for His forgiveness. And since He beat death, it affords me the opportunity to beat death as well. Acknowledging this requires faith, obviously, and I think it is important to remember our finite minds are not going to be able to grasp the entirety of these issues.
Let the wicked forsake their ways and the unrighteous their thoughts. Let them turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on them, and to our God, for he will freely pardon. “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the LORD. "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts. Isaiah 55:7-9
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]Joe Pears wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]Joe Pears wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/07/15/planned-parenthood-facing-investigations-over-abhorrent-video-on-body-part/?intcmp=latestnews
Absolutely fucking disgusting. [/quote]
Why let aborted dead Fetus’s go to waste when they can go to research labs to try and further our ability to understand and combat and cure disease, cancers etc that affect not currently dead people? What should be done with them? Should they be individually buried in tiny coffins serving no use to anybody ?
This isn’t disgusting, just like donating my body to other people or science when I die is not absolutely fucking disgusting but the obvious thing to do. Even if someone if pro-life surely they are not against medical research ?[/quote]
Chopping up defenseless babies and selling them is fucking disgusting. I am an organ donor, it is a completely different thing altogether.
Life > curing cancer in my book. [/quote]
How is it though? How is it any different than a regular donor situation? [/quote]
In a regular donor situation the donee makes the decision to be a donor. The baby has no choice. It’s killed, chopped up, and then sold. It’s completely different.
[quote]
These foetuses have already been killed, [/quote]
Against their will.
[quote]
they are dead, so why throw them in the waste bin instead of using them for transplant and research that can save kids who are alive? [/quote]
These kids would also be alive if we didn’t allow them to be killed in the first place
They shouldn’t be dead and they should not be sold for profit, ever.
[quote]
Where is this drama coming from? In the civilised world abortion is a woman’s right. [/quote]
Civilized, lol…
[quote]
That will never revert, so there will be lots of dead foetuses and we might as well put them to good use.[/quote]
I believe it will. I whole heartily believe future generations will look at us the same way we look at former slave owners.[/quote]
A murder victim is killed against his will. That does not mean using body parts for transplant and medical research is disgusting and an outrage.
Whether or not you agree with abortion is irrelevant. These foetuses are dead, you can’t bring them back. Throwing them in the trashcan rather than using them to save living children is morally wrong.
[quote]Joe Pears wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]Joe Pears wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]Joe Pears wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/07/15/planned-parenthood-facing-investigations-over-abhorrent-video-on-body-part/?intcmp=latestnews
Absolutely fucking disgusting. [/quote]
Why let aborted dead Fetus’s go to waste when they can go to research labs to try and further our ability to understand and combat and cure disease, cancers etc that affect not currently dead people? What should be done with them? Should they be individually buried in tiny coffins serving no use to anybody ?
This isn’t disgusting, just like donating my body to other people or science when I die is not absolutely fucking disgusting but the obvious thing to do. Even if someone if pro-life surely they are not against medical research ?[/quote]
Chopping up defenseless babies and selling them is fucking disgusting. I am an organ donor, it is a completely different thing altogether.
Life > curing cancer in my book. [/quote]
How is it though? How is it any different than a regular donor situation? [/quote]
In a regular donor situation the donee makes the decision to be a donor. The baby has no choice. It’s killed, chopped up, and then sold. It’s completely different.
[quote]
These foetuses have already been killed, [/quote]
Against their will.
[quote]
they are dead, so why throw them in the waste bin instead of using them for transplant and research that can save kids who are alive? [/quote]
These kids would also be alive if we didn’t allow them to be killed in the first place
They shouldn’t be dead and they should not be sold for profit, ever.
[quote]
Where is this drama coming from? In the civilised world abortion is a woman’s right. [/quote]
Civilized, lol…
[quote]
That will never revert, so there will be lots of dead foetuses and we might as well put them to good use.[/quote]
I believe it will. I whole heartily believe future generations will look at us the same way we look at former slave owners.[/quote]
A murder victim is killed against his will. That does not mean using body parts for transplant and medical research is disgusting and an outrage. [/quote]
Selling those body parts for profit most certainly is.
[quote]
Whether or not you agree with abortion is irrelevant. [/quote]
No, it really isn’t.
I don’t even know where to begin with this utterly absurd statement.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
[quote]opeth7opeth wrote:
Hello, Varqanir. [/quote]
Hello, opeth7opeth.
Yes.
I know, right? People like that are so annoying.
Did you intend that to rhyme, or was that just a happy coincidence?
Precisely the point I was hoping to make. So glad you caught it.
[quote]God is infinitely holy and righteous, and He cannot fellowship with anyone who has less than perfect righteousness (Exodus 20:5; Deuteronomy 4:24, 5:9, 27:26; Psalm 130:3; Isaiah 6:5, 28:17; Habakkuk 1:13; Matthew 5:20; Romans 3:19; Galatians 3:10; Hebrews 10:28-31).
Is your argument IF the infant is guilty in the eyes of God’s law and justice, THEN it follows that they should be murdered? [/quote]
No. I don’t think I have ever argued that any infant should be murdered: I was simply making the somewhat pedantic and slightly sarcastic observation that by the standards of the great majority of people who revolt against the murder of “innocent babies”, the babies are not, in fact, innocent.
[quote]These passages below apply to you Varqanir just as much as to infants, but that does not give someone leave to jam scissors into your head.
Romans 5:12: “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.”
Romans 5:19: “For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.”
Romans 6:23: “For the wages of sin is death.”[/quote]
And everybody collects their wages eventually. Some sooner than others. Aborted fetuses sooner than anybody.
Yes. There it is. As soon as they are conceived.
Oh wait… as soon as they are born. I wish the psalmist would make up his mind. But I agree. There is nothing worse than a wicked newborn infant liar.
[quote]Romans 3:23: “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.”
Romans 8:7-8: “…the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.”
Matthew 19:18: “And Jesus said, You shall not commit murder.”
[/quote]
Yes precisely. Nobody is innocent, especially not me.
And who is to say that the scissors-wielding maniac who jams his weapon into my skull is not acting in accordance with the Great Cosmic Plan of the Almighty? Nobody can predict how or when he or she is going to shuffle off this mortal coil, maybe it is God’s will that some of us die in our beds at the ripe old age of eighty, while others of us have scissors driven into our crania.
But then, does God really care exactly how we die? Or is God more concerned with how we conduct ourselves in the absolutely infinitesimal period of time between conception and expiration? I imagine that to God, a human lifespan seems like the lifespan of a quark does to us. Does a researcher at the Large Hadron Collider care how a quark meets its demise? Or is he more interested in all the cool spirally moves it makes in the trillionth of a second that it exists?
And if all souls are immortal and will someday return to God, to be judged and either eternally rewarded or punished according to their conduct in the infinitesimal time they assumed corporeal form in this plane of existence, it seems that the smart move, from the point of view of the soul, would be to be aborted early on, before the opportunity to commit any real sins of one’s own could ever present itself.
Who knows? Maybe in the Great Cosmic Scheme of Things, the aborted fetuses are the lucky ones.[/quote]
How in the happy fuck is original sin even entering this conversation?
So, abortion is murder and that’s cool, 'cause original sin? Walk me through this logic.
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
[quote]opeth7opeth wrote:
Hello, Varqanir. [/quote]
Hello, opeth7opeth.
Yes.
I know, right? People like that are so annoying.
Did you intend that to rhyme, or was that just a happy coincidence?
Precisely the point I was hoping to make. So glad you caught it.
[quote]God is infinitely holy and righteous, and He cannot fellowship with anyone who has less than perfect righteousness (Exodus 20:5; Deuteronomy 4:24, 5:9, 27:26; Psalm 130:3; Isaiah 6:5, 28:17; Habakkuk 1:13; Matthew 5:20; Romans 3:19; Galatians 3:10; Hebrews 10:28-31).
Is your argument IF the infant is guilty in the eyes of God’s law and justice, THEN it follows that they should be murdered? [/quote]
No. I don’t think I have ever argued that any infant should be murdered: I was simply making the somewhat pedantic and slightly sarcastic observation that by the standards of the great majority of people who revolt against the murder of “innocent babies”, the babies are not, in fact, innocent.
[quote]These passages below apply to you Varqanir just as much as to infants, but that does not give someone leave to jam scissors into your head.
Romans 5:12: “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.”
Romans 5:19: “For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.”
Romans 6:23: “For the wages of sin is death.”[/quote]
And everybody collects their wages eventually. Some sooner than others. Aborted fetuses sooner than anybody.
Yes. There it is. As soon as they are conceived.
Oh wait… as soon as they are born. I wish the psalmist would make up his mind. But I agree. There is nothing worse than a wicked newborn infant liar.
[quote]Romans 3:23: “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.”
Romans 8:7-8: “…the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.”
Matthew 19:18: “And Jesus said, You shall not commit murder.”
[/quote]
Yes precisely. Nobody is innocent, especially not me.
And who is to say that the scissors-wielding maniac who jams his weapon into my skull is not acting in accordance with the Great Cosmic Plan of the Almighty? Nobody can predict how or when he or she is going to shuffle off this mortal coil, maybe it is God’s will that some of us die in our beds at the ripe old age of eighty, while others of us have scissors driven into our crania.
But then, does God really care exactly how we die? Or is God more concerned with how we conduct ourselves in the absolutely infinitesimal period of time between conception and expiration? I imagine that to God, a human lifespan seems like the lifespan of a quark does to us. Does a researcher at the Large Hadron Collider care how a quark meets its demise? Or is he more interested in all the cool spirally moves it makes in the trillionth of a second that it exists?
And if all souls are immortal and will someday return to God, to be judged and either eternally rewarded or punished according to their conduct in the infinitesimal time they assumed corporeal form in this plane of existence, it seems that the smart move, from the point of view of the soul, would be to be aborted early on, before the opportunity to commit any real sins of one’s own could ever present itself.
Who knows? Maybe in the Great Cosmic Scheme of Things, the aborted fetuses are the lucky ones.[/quote]
How in the happy fuck is original sin even entering this conversation?
So, abortion is murder and that’s cool, 'cause original sin? Walk me through this logic.
[/quote]
Go back and actually read the whole post. You’ll find it. I promise.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
[quote]Alrightmiami19c wrote:
it doesn’t get more innocent than in the womb.
[/quote]
Define innocent.
Quick question for those of you who believe in such things:
Would you say that the guilt of Original and Imputed Sins is conferred upon all all mankind at the moment of birth, at the moment of conception, or somewhere along the gestational way?
“All hath sinned” seems to be the other side of the “all men…are endowed with unalienable rights” coin.[/quote]
So you are disputing the ‘innocent’ part of killing an ‘innocent’ human being?
This is quite the rabbit hole and not interested in playing.
Let’s start with a couple of very simple questions, rather.
Do you believe killing human beings, who pose no threat to your life or the life of somebody you love, is wrong?
Do you believe that the being that grows in the uterus of a female human being is a human being? If not, then what?
[quote]pat wrote:
Let’s start with a couple of very simple questions, rather.
Do you believe killing human beings, who pose no threat to your life or the life of somebody you love, is wrong?[/quote]
Yes. If you aren’t gonna eat it, then don’t kill it, I say.
[quote]Do you believe that the being that grows in the uterus of a female human being is a human being? If not, then what?
[/quote]
Of course it’s human. It wouldn’t be growing inside of a human uterus otherwise.
This is fun. Ask me another.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
[quote]Alrightmiami19c wrote:
it doesn’t get more innocent than in the womb.
[/quote]
Define innocent.
Quick question for those of you who believe in such things:
Would you say that the guilt of Original and Imputed Sins is conferred upon all all mankind at the moment of birth, at the moment of conception, or somewhere along the gestational way?
[/quote]
What business is it of anybodies, of that which is between a person and God?
[quote]
“All hath sinned” seems to be the other side of the “all men…are endowed with unalienable rights” coin.[/quote]
If you are going to use ‘sin’ as your measuring stick as to whether something has the right to live or not you might as well blow up the whole planet. Who brought up religion anyway?
This is a life and death issue, religion need not be mentioned.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Go back and actually read the whole post. You’ll find it. I promise.
[/quote]
How do you define ‘innocent’?
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
[quote]Alrightmiami19c wrote:
it doesn’t get more innocent than in the womb.
[/quote]
Define innocent.
Quick question for those of you who believe in such things:
Would you say that the guilt of Original and Imputed Sins is conferred upon all all mankind at the moment of birth, at the moment of conception, or somewhere along the gestational way?
[/quote]
What business is it of anybodies, of that which is between a person and God?
[quote]
“All hath sinned” seems to be the other side of the “all men…are endowed with unalienable rights” coin.[/quote]
If you are going to use ‘sin’ as your measuring stick as to whether something has the right to live or not you might as well blow up the whole planet. Who brought up religion anyway?
This is a life and death issue, religion need not be mentioned. [/quote]
Well, first of all, I can’t blow up a whole planet, that’s just silly. And I’ve never stated that anything or anyone, sinful or otherwise, has or doesn’t have the “right” to live.
Second, my rhetorical question was already answered by opeth7opeth. The answer was “at conception”. At least according to King David.
And third, why not bring up religion? What has more opinions about life and death issues than religion?
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Go back and actually read the whole post. You’ll find it. I promise.
[/quote]
How do you define ‘innocent’?[/quote]
Without guilt. Free of iniquity and depravity.
How do you define it?
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
Let’s start with a couple of very simple questions, rather.
Do you believe killing human beings, who pose no threat to your life or the life of somebody you love, is wrong?[/quote]
Yes. If you aren’t gonna eat it, then don’t kill it, I say.
[quote]Do you believe that the being that grows in the uterus of a female human being is a human being? If not, then what?
[/quote]
Of course it’s human. It wouldn’t be growing inside of a human uterus otherwise.
This is fun. Ask me another.
[/quote]
Okay.
Does gestational age or particular stage of human development affect the ‘value’ of that particular being?
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
Let’s start with a couple of very simple questions, rather.
Do you believe killing human beings, who pose no threat to your life or the life of somebody you love, is wrong?[/quote]
Yes. If you aren’t gonna eat it, then don’t kill it, I say.
[quote]Do you believe that the being that grows in the uterus of a female human being is a human being? If not, then what?
[/quote]
Of course it’s human. It wouldn’t be growing inside of a human uterus otherwise.
This is fun. Ask me another.
[/quote]
Okay.
Does gestational age or particular stage of human development affect the ‘value’ of that particular being? [/quote]
Not as far as I know. Unless one is talking about its “street value” per gram.
