[quote]pushharder wrote:
Living human = human life
in anyone’s English speaking world.[/quote]
Typical semantics non-sense.
I’ve read through most of this thread… and man it is brutal. I’m only jumping in real quick to give old style some support, as I agree with him.
Yes, I know, unique human life at conception. However, I do not think that “unique human life” DNA has the same choices as the mother, and the mother has the option to aport up to 20 weeks.
I understand the arguments put forth here, so not need to get into them again. My only point is that every pro-life person here says they are right, science shows it, and history will prove it. There are two sides to this, and I remain pro-choice, up to a point, even after hearing all the well sounded points made.
One of the main issues I see with Planned Parenthood debate, is that it becomes a pro-life vs. pro-abortion issue. I think it would be better to focus not on that debate, but on defunding Planned Parenthood and why that makes sense. I believe that is the better way to get pro-choice people to get onboard with defunding Planned Parenthood, which is my stance.
Carry on.
[quote]Drew1411 wrote:
I’ve read through most of this thread… and man it is brutal. I’m only jumping in real quick to give old style some support, as I agree with him.
Yes, I know, unique human life at conception. However, I do not think that “unique human life” DNA has the same choices as the mother, and the mother has the option to aport up to 20 weeks. [/quote]
So you’re saying some unique lives matter more than other unique lives. Interestingly enough so did this guy named Hilter.
[quote]
I understand the arguments put forth here, so not need to get into them again. My only point is that every pro-life person here says they are right, science shows it, and history will prove it. There are two sides to this, and I remain pro-choice, up to a point, even after hearing all the well sounded points made. [/quote]
Which makes you complicit in genocide a point that hurt oldstyles feelings as it should.
“I don’t personally agree with abortion, but I think it’s the mother choice.”
“I don’t personally agree with slavery, but I think it’s the slave owners choice.”
[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
old styl , you will see it their way or you will be marginalized , they control the board . You will find a couple that will disagree on minor points , This thread will show you the method of operation of the CJS[/quote]
I don’t mind him. He is making an effort to be intelligently disagreeable. You’re an idiot.[/quote]
JB I will accept your half-hearted compliment 
[quote]Drew1411 wrote:
However, I do not think that “unique human life” DNA has the same choices as the mother, and the mother has the option to aport up to 20 weeks.
[/quote]
But why do you feel this way? Please expound upon your position or is it just based off a “I can morally justify the ending of a life out of convenience up to this point” arbitrary line you drew because you are in favor of people not having to accept the consequences of their actions?
One thing about the pro-life v. pro-choice debate that doesn’t get touched on as much, it is exasperated by this special snow flake, participation trophy culture as you have a large segment of the population that believes consequences shouldn’t exist and that everyone is entitled to a few redo’s if they don’t like the outcome of their actions. So that’s how they choose to view abortion and they draw arbitrary lines to make themselves feel better about advocating homicide because people where careless with their sex lives.
[quote]oldstyle00 wrote:
[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
old styl , you will see it their way or you will be marginalized , they control the board . You will find a couple that will disagree on minor points , This thread will show you the method of operation of the CJS[/quote]
I don’t mind him. He is making an effort to be intelligently disagreeable. You’re an idiot.[/quote]
JB I will accept your half-hearted compliment :)[/quote]
It actually was a compliment. And you can expect to encounter a little more vinegar than you otherwise would from the crowd that’s hear after they deal with Pitt for a couple days.
George Carlin’s saying, “Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” is never more applicable than when you are talking with him.
[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
[quote]Drew1411 wrote:
However, I do not think that “unique human life” DNA has the same choices as the mother, and the mother has the option to aport up to 20 weeks.
[/quote]
But why do you feel this way? Please expound upon your position or is it just based off a “I can morally justify the ending of a life out of convenience up to this point” arbitrary line you drew because you are in favor of people not having to accept the consequences of their actions?
[/quote]
Honestly, pretty close to your point. I morally justify aborting a pregnancy, out of convienience, so the mother and future children can have a better life. Having a child is a life changing moment which should be joyful, not unwanted. With that said, I would absolutely prefer the mother give it up for adoption or not have gotten in the situation in the first place, but thats not what we’re talking about.
I believe a child should only come into the world wanted, and after working with children that have been born into drug addiction, abusive households, and poverty that is extremely challenging to get out of, I believe in giving the mother a chance to not give that life to someone if they make that decision before their baby has brain functionality and legal human rights.
I understand the slavery comparisons and know your position and how you view it. This is how I see it.
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]Drew1411 wrote:
I’ve read through most of this thread… and man it is brutal. I’m only jumping in real quick to give old style some support, as I agree with him.
Yes, I know, unique human life at conception. However, I do not think that “unique human life” DNA has the same choices as the mother, and the mother has the option to aport up to 20 weeks. [/quote]
So you’re saying some unique lives matter more than other unique lives. Interestingly enough so did this guy named Hilter.
I understand your point. Currently we don’t view a fetus as a human being, similar to how slaves were not considered humans.
I don’t like abortion, and hope I never have to consider it. I would rather have children born into the world wanted and loved if the mother can determine early in her pregnancy that she does not want a child.
Since nobody is really budging on their stances I figure I will give a personal story to clarify my perspective.
Forgive me if I get any of your stances wrong on the subject
Conception=unique “human life” (and I haven’t heard any exceptions to that)
Abortion after conception=murder=Nazi concentration camps.
Several years ago my sister became pregnant with her husband with their first child. Nearing the end of the pregnancy things started going wrong and she was feeling like shit. She ended up going into the hospital and her Dr told her if she would have waited a couple more days to come in there would have been a good chance she would have died. Now luckily the pregnancy lasted long enough that their boy was born around 4 pounds and spent a few months in the NICU. What if those complications would have happened earlier on in the pregnancy when the fetus can’t live, so it comes down to the mother dying or an abortion to save the mother. Now imagine that pregnant woman is your wife, daughter, or sister. Are you going to tell them no you should die because I don’t believe in an abortion=murder=concentration camps. If you have an exception to save the life of the mother that makes someone a hypocrite on all abortions because the majority of you have already said that at conception that is a unique human life that should not be aborted. You can’t pick and choose based on that stance that one life is more important then another if you are viewing all abortions as murder.
Now you can say Oldstyle that shit is rare, but guess what it isn’t very rare when shit like that is happening to you. When you have a loved one laying in a hospital bed struggling its very real and not rare.
Beans the reason I brought up the ectopic pregnancy is because your view is a unique life begins at conception. In an ectopic pregnancy conception has occurred, thus because of your stance that is a unique human, just because the fertilized egg implants somewhere other then the Uterus doesn’t make it any less fertilized. The sperm doesn’t look out of the egg and say egg your in the wrong spot I am leaving, its still fertilized. While the majority don’t become viable fetuses it doesn’t change the fact that once that sperm entered that egg it is a unique human life. By your definition that woman should not receive any sort of surgery because that would be murder irregardless of where that egg attached because conception has already occurred.
[quote]Drew1411 wrote:
[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
[quote]Drew1411 wrote:
However, I do not think that “unique human life” DNA has the same choices as the mother, and the mother has the option to aport up to 20 weeks.
[/quote]
But why do you feel this way? Please expound upon your position or is it just based off a “I can morally justify the ending of a life out of convenience up to this point” arbitrary line you drew because you are in favor of people not having to accept the consequences of their actions?
[/quote]
Honestly, pretty close to your point. I morally justify aborting a pregnancy, out of convienience, so the mother and future children can have a better life. Having a child is a life changing moment which should be joyful, not unwanted. With that said, I would absolutely prefer the mother give it up for adoption or not have gotten in the situation in the first place, but thats not what we’re talking about.
I believe a child should only come into the world wanted, and after working with children that have been born into drug addiction, abusive households, and poverty that is extremely challenging to get out of, I believe in giving the mother a chance to not give that life to someone if they make that decision before their baby has brain functionality and legal human rights.
I understand the slavery comparisons and know your position and how you view it. This is how I see it.[/quote]
I agree with this.
[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
[quote]oldstyle00 wrote:
[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
old styl , you will see it their way or you will be marginalized , they control the board . You will find a couple that will disagree on minor points , This thread will show you the method of operation of the CJS[/quote]
I don’t mind him. He is making an effort to be intelligently disagreeable. You’re an idiot.[/quote]
JB I will accept your half-hearted compliment :)[/quote]
It actually was a compliment. And you can expect to encounter a little more vinegar than you otherwise would from the crowd that’s hear after they deal with Pitt for a couple days.
George Carlin’s saying, “Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” is never more applicable than when you are talking with him.
[/quote]
Thanks I knew I would encounter push back thats fine I feel like I am smart enough to deal with the majority of it. When I get some more time and can research some more I will try to respond to our brain debate.
[quote]oldstyle00 wrote:
Now you can say Oldstyle that shit is rare, but guess what it isn’t very rare when shit like that is happening to you. When you have a loved one laying in a hospital bed struggling its very real and not rare.[/quote]
When someone breaks into your house, and tries to murder you and rape your wife and daughter, if you kill them before they get the chance, did you murder them?
No. You acted in self defense.
Why would the death of an innocent child through abortion not come with the same shades of gray?
End of the day, if Health of the Mother reasons was actually the purpose of the left supporting abortion (this includes rape and incest), then the political battle wouldn’t be taking place. Because the abortion count would be around 3k a year and looked at as a tragic medical procedure where people were placed in a tough position.
Unfortunately, as Drew so aptly pointed out, pro-aborts want it legal for a lot more reasons than Health of the Mother, namely the arrogant assumption that being dead is better than being born poor or into a situation that isn’t Dan fucking Blizeran.
It’s funny, but my pro-abort wife and I had this conversation when she was pregnant with my daughter. She told me if I chose here over my daughter she would pissed, and it likely would have ruined my marriage. Her words “I’ve lived my life, she needs the opportunity to.” I’m thankful I didn’t have to make that choice.
First off, it isn’t my view that a unique life begins at conception, it is irrefutable scientific fact. And nothing but “muah feels” has been posted to refute that fact.
Secondly, see above in regards to the surgery.
Third, again where it attacks doesn’t make it NOT a unique human life. You brought this up as a fallacy, I get that. But it doesn’t show anything, or refute any scientific facts you continue to refuse to acknowledge.
[quote]Drew1411 wrote:
I don’t like abortion, and hope I never have to consider it. I would rather have children born into the world wanted and loved if the mother can determine early in her pregnancy that she does not want a child.
[/quote]
So you’re cool with people that shake their crying infants to death or just leave them in dumpsters to die then?
Clearly they are unwanted and unloved, your criteria for if someone is allowed rights. So you must be okay with it, right? If not, why not?
Drew, I do give you credit for being open about supporting wholesale murder for convenience based on your feels rather than making up a bunch of nonsense and junk “science”.
Nor do you even attempt to rationalize away or play mental gymnastics about it. You’re straight up okay with the ending of innocent life for convenience.
I don’t respect your stance, but certainly your willingness to stand upon that hill unabashed…
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]Drew1411 wrote:
I don’t like abortion, and hope I never have to consider it. I would rather have children born into the world wanted and loved if the mother can determine early in her pregnancy that she does not want a child.
[/quote]
So you’re cool with people that shake their crying infants to death or just leave them in dumpsters to die then?
Clearly they are unwanted and unloved, your criteria for if someone is allowed rights. So you must be okay with it, right? If not, why not?
[/quote]
No, I don’t think that is ok. In that case, the mother chose to have the baby (she could have had an abortion), and suffers the consequences of that choice if she chooses to neglect that child.
I don’t view a under 20-week fetus the same as a baby, so I see a difference between the two scenarios.
[quote]Drew1411 wrote:
I’ve read through most of this thread… and man it is brutal. I’m only jumping in real quick to give old style some support, as I agree with him.
Yes, I know, unique human life at conception. However, I do not think that “unique human life” DNA has the same choices as the mother, and the mother has the option to aport up to 20 weeks.
I understand the arguments put forth here, so not need to get into them again. My only point is that every pro-life person here says they are right, science shows it, and history will prove it. There are two sides to this, and I remain pro-choice, up to a point, even after hearing all the well sounded points made.
One of the main issues I see with Planned Parenthood debate, is that it becomes a pro-life vs. pro-abortion issue. I think it would be better to focus not on that debate, but on defunding Planned Parenthood and why that makes sense. I believe that is the better way to get pro-choice people to get onboard with defunding Planned Parenthood, which is my stance.
Carry on.[/quote]
You just stated that you do not believe in the inherent worth, or natural rights of human beings. I only ask that you realize first that you deny natural human rights (most importantly the right to life) and that you consider what that means in practice. You are in exclusive company with the most reviled movements and people in history. There are others groups that have reserved and deligAted the right to life based on the exact same logic. You are in bed with the likes of the Nazis, slave traders, and pretty much every genocidal movement in recorded history.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Drew, I do give you credit for being open about supporting wholesale murder for convenience based on your feels rather than making up a bunch of nonsense and junk “science”.
Nor do you even attempt to rationalize away or play mental gymnastics about it. You’re straight up okay with the ending of innocent life for convenience.
I don’t respect your stance, but certainly your willingness to stand upon that hill unabashed… [/quote]
Haha thanks? I guess?
Old Style stated the science behind why I don’t view the moment of conception the same as a full term baby, and I felt that I should say that I agree with what he was saying.
Either way, I don’t think taxpayer money should be going to an institution that obviously is biased on the issues and Planned Parenthood should be defunded. The conversation in congress is more about that than revisiting Roe vs. Wade
[quote]Drew1411 wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]Drew1411 wrote:
I don’t like abortion, and hope I never have to consider it. I would rather have children born into the world wanted and loved if the mother can determine early in her pregnancy that she does not want a child.
[/quote]
So you’re cool with people that shake their crying infants to death or just leave them in dumpsters to die then?
Clearly they are unwanted and unloved, your criteria for if someone is allowed rights. So you must be okay with it, right? If not, why not?
[/quote]
No, I don’t think that is ok. In that case, the mother chose to have the baby (she could have had an abortion), and suffers the consequences of that choice if she chooses to neglect that child.
I don’t view a under 20-week fetus the same as a baby, so I see a difference between the two scenarios.[/quote]
And I don’t view people who deny natural human rights the same as a functional normal non- evil human. Where does that leave us? Should I arrive at a similar conclusion about the worth and ownership of your life? Certain anyone who denies human rights doesn’t deserve them.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]Drew1411 wrote:
I’ve read through most of this thread… and man it is brutal. I’m only jumping in real quick to give old style some support, as I agree with him.
Yes, I know, unique human life at conception. However, I do not think that “unique human life” DNA has the same choices as the mother, and the mother has the option to aport up to 20 weeks.
I understand the arguments put forth here, so not need to get into them again. My only point is that every pro-life person here says they are right, science shows it, and history will prove it. There are two sides to this, and I remain pro-choice, up to a point, even after hearing all the well sounded points made.
One of the main issues I see with Planned Parenthood debate, is that it becomes a pro-life vs. pro-abortion issue. I think it would be better to focus not on that debate, but on defunding Planned Parenthood and why that makes sense. I believe that is the better way to get pro-choice people to get onboard with defunding Planned Parenthood, which is my stance.
Carry on.[/quote]
You just stated that you do not believe in the inherent worth, or natural rights of human beings. I only ask that you realize first that you deny natural human rights (most importantly the right to life) and that you consider what that means in practice. You are in exclusive company with the most reviled movements and people in history. There are others groups that have reserved and deligAted the right to life based on the exact same logic. You are in bed with the likes of the Nazis, slave traders, and pretty much every genocidal movement in recorded history. [/quote]
I get your analogy but that is not how I see it. I do not view someone that has had an abortion as a Nazi equivalent.
Are you saying that the only stance is life at conception? Any other view point is 100% flawed and there is no grey area? If that is the case, there is no point of having a discussion.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]Drew1411 wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]Drew1411 wrote:
I don’t like abortion, and hope I never have to consider it. I would rather have children born into the world wanted and loved if the mother can determine early in her pregnancy that she does not want a child.
[/quote]
So you’re cool with people that shake their crying infants to death or just leave them in dumpsters to die then?
Clearly they are unwanted and unloved, your criteria for if someone is allowed rights. So you must be okay with it, right? If not, why not?
[/quote]
No, I don’t think that is ok. In that case, the mother chose to have the baby (she could have had an abortion), and suffers the consequences of that choice if she chooses to neglect that child.
I don’t view a under 20-week fetus the same as a baby, so I see a difference between the two scenarios.[/quote]
And I don’t view people who deny natural human rights the same as a functional normal non- evil human. Where does that leave us? Should I arrive at a similar conclusion about the worth and ownership of your life? Certain anyone who denies human rights doesn’t deserve them. [/quote]
Not sure where to go with this one. I don’t deserve to live because I don’t view an under 20-week fetus the same as a human being? Sorry that is how you see it, I see it differently.