[quote]Voluminous wrote:
For such an aficionado of performing the act of potentially creating children; your stated opinion within the thread is odd. I wonder do you also advocate the non-usage of birth control & condoms; as they both also prevent a human being brought into being. I hazard a guess that you do not; nor does anyone else shouting from the rooftops about PP being so vile & disgusting for offering choice.
[/quote]
Absolutely no rational person in this thread is advocating the prevention of creation of life. We are however advocating the cessation of ending that life once it is created.
I am all for people being allowed to choose if they want a child. However once they create a human being, which is what that fetus is, they have already made their choice. I believe people should have the choice to prevent a pregnancy same as you. I do not believe anyone has the right to end a human life which is what that “thing” with the beating heart that writhes in pain (because its nervous system has developed) when burned or tries to pull away when grasped before being torn from its mother and ripped apart is.[/quote]
Long time lurker on the site first time posting.
To get some perspective, the death of a human being is determined by the lack of brain activity. Thus medically and scientifically speaking the life a human being would happen when there is measured brain waves. Roughly around 8 weeks there is a heart beat, but that is not the definition of life if that is not the determination of death. At around 14 weeks the fetus starts moving to environmental stimuli, but these are reflexes. At around 20 weeks the Thalamus is completely formed, which is the relay center for the brain and there is brain waves. The brain waves are just in spurts and not a regular brain activity wave pattern. Regular brain waves happen around 25 weeks.
Considering a human is medically deceased when brain activity has ceased by that definition human life would happen at 20 or 25 weeks when there is brain activity. If you believe life happens when there is a heartbeat that is only an opinion and holds no water in actual reality when that is not the definition of death.
Abolishing abortions have been done in the past it didn’t turn out well. Women would go to extreme measures to terminate their pregnancy (drinking in excess, physical harm, clothes hangers, drugs, etc). Often those extremes would result in harm to the woman. Its a lot like drug use if someone has a desire to do drugs they are going to find a way to do them. In history that has also held true on this subject as well if a woman wants to end her pregnancy she will do that whether its legal or not. There are even stories of pregnant women in states where it is hard to get an abortion of them ordering the same drugs online and taking them. While I don’t agree with abortions, would I rather have them supervised and performed by a medical professional or have women go to extremes I would choose the former.
[/quote]
don’t you go bringin no common sense to this board:)
You pretty much know you won when people start bringing in completely unrelated shit and try to make it relate. Abortion?! Well the Palestinians, so there![/quote]
You know it pretty bad when all you can do is snipe , no substance , no discussion , no point , no stated opinion , just snipe
[quote]oldstyle00 wrote:
If you believe life happens when there is a heartbeat that is only an opinion and holds no water in actual reality when that is not the definition of death.
[/quote]
If you believe anything other than a unique human life begins at conception you are ignorant of basic biology…
Jesus Christ the mental gymnastics pro-aborts will go through to try and rationalize away what abortion actually is… First post in 6 years, and it’s wasted on cherry picking bits and pieces of science to rationalize the killing of innocent humans. Well done.
You pretty much know you won when people start bringing in completely unrelated shit and try to make it relate. Abortion?! Well the Palestinians, so there![/quote]
You know it pretty bad when all you can do is snipe , no substance , no discussion , no point , no stated opinion , just snipe
[/quote]
You pretty much know you won when people start bringing in completely unrelated shit and try to make it relate. Abortion?! Well the Palestinians, so there![/quote]
You know it pretty bad when all you can do is snipe , no substance , no discussion , no point , no stated opinion , just snipe
[/quote]
That isn’t basic biology that is your opinion. You seem to know nothing about biology I studied it, went to grad school in it and was a Chemist for 7 years. You are the only one cherry picking information. When do you believe life ends? You can’t pick and choose a difference because it agrees with your opinion.
[quote]Voluminous wrote:
For such an aficionado of performing the act of potentially creating children; your stated opinion within the thread is odd. I wonder do you also advocate the non-usage of birth control & condoms; as they both also prevent a human being brought into being. I hazard a guess that you do not; nor does anyone else shouting from the rooftops about PP being so vile & disgusting for offering choice.
[/quote]
Absolutely no rational person in this thread is advocating the prevention of creation of life. We are however advocating the cessation of ending that life once it is created.
I am all for people being allowed to choose if they want a child. However once they create a human being, which is what that fetus is, they have already made their choice. I believe people should have the choice to prevent a pregnancy same as you. I do not believe anyone has the right to end a human life which is what that “thing” with the beating heart that writhes in pain (because its nervous system has developed) when burned or tries to pull away when grasped before being torn from its mother and ripped apart is.[/quote]
Long time lurker on the site first time posting.
To get some perspective, the death of a human being is determined by the lack of brain activity. Thus medically and scientifically speaking the life a human being would happen when there is measured brain waves. Roughly around 8 weeks there is a heart beat, but that is not the definition of life if that is not the determination of death. At around 14 weeks the fetus starts moving to environmental stimuli, but these are reflexes. At around 20 weeks the Thalamus is completely formed, which is the relay center for the brain and there is brain waves. The brain waves are just in spurts and not a regular brain activity wave pattern. Regular brain waves happen around 25 weeks.
Considering a human is medically deceased when brain activity has ceased by that definition human life would happen at 20 or 25 weeks when there is brain activity. If you believe life happens when there is a heartbeat that is only an opinion and holds no water in actual reality when that is not the definition of death. [/quote]
A unique and individual human life begins at conception. That is scientific fact. Defining human life as simply the opposite of death is short sighted at best.
If you want to argue an abortion should be legal until brain function that’s one thing, but claiming a fetus is not a unique individual human life pre-brain wave function is simply wrong.
[quote]
Abolishing abortions have been done in the past it didn’t turn out well. Women would go to extreme measures to terminate their pregnancy (drinking in excess, physical harm, clothes hangers, drugs, etc). Often those extremes would result in harm to the woman. [/quote]
I’ve never understood this line of reasoning. She might hurt herself while terminating another person’s life and I’m supposed to feel bad for her?
Just a thought, use a condom. Use the pill. Use something. For crying out loud it’s already paid for you might as well use it.
So, I want to hire a hitman to murder my neighbor. The guy’s dog never stops barking. History shows that I can find a way to hire a hitman whether it’s legal or not. There are even stories of people who can’t find a hitman to pull the trigger, so to speak, so they just buy a gun online and do it themselves. While I don’t agree with murder, would I rather have them supervised and performed by professional hitman or have to go to extremes myself I would choose the former.
[quote]oldstyle00 wrote:
That isn’t basic biology that is your opinion. You seem to know nothing about biology I studied it, went to grad school in it and was a Chemist for 7 years. You are the only one cherry picking information. When do you believe life ends? You can’t pick and choose a difference because it agrees with your opinion. [/quote]
lmao…
Okay. find one piece of authoritative literature that doesn’t say a unique human life begins at conception.
[quote]oldstyle00 wrote:
That isn’t basic biology that is your opinion. You seem to know nothing about biology I studied it, went to grad school in it and was a Chemist for 7 years. You are the only one cherry picking information. When do you believe life ends? You can’t pick and choose a difference because it agrees with your opinion. [/quote]
I’d ask for my money back and perhaps spend it on a community college reading course. I don’t believe Beans mentioned the moment of death in his post.
When life begins and death occurs are not the exact opposite of each other. I have never once heard this.
You pretty much know you won when people start bringing in completely unrelated shit and try to make it relate. Abortion?! Well the Palestinians, so there![/quote]
You know it pretty bad when all you can do is snipe , no substance , no discussion , no point , no stated opinion , just snipe
[/quote]
“Development of the embryo begins at Stage 1 when a sperm fertilizes an oocyte and together they form a zygote.”
[England, Marjorie A. Life Before Birth. 2nd ed. England: Mosby-Wolfe, 1996, p.31]
"Human development begins after the union of male and female gametes or germ cells during a process known as fertilization (conception).
“Fertilization is a sequence of events that begins with the contact of a sperm (spermatozoon) with a secondary oocyte (ovum) and ends with the fusion of their pronuclei (the haploid nuclei of the sperm and ovum) and the mingling of their chromosomes to form a new cell. This fertilized ovum, known as a zygote, is a large diploid cell that is the beginning, or primordium, of a human being.”
[Moore, Keith L. Essentials of Human Embryology. Toronto: B.C. Decker Inc, 1988, p.2]
“Embryo: the developing organism from the time of fertilization until significant differentiation has occurred, when the organism becomes known as a fetus.”
[Cloning Human Beings. Report and Recommendations of the National Bioethics Advisory Commission. Rockville, MD: GPO, 1997, Appendix-2.]
Scientists Attest To Life Beginning At Conception
By Randy Alcorn
Some of the world?s most prominent scientists and physicians testified to a U.S. Senate committee that human life begins at conception:
A United States Senate Judiciary Subcommittee invited experts to testify on the question of when life begins. All of the quotes from the following experts come directly from the official government record of their testimony.1
Dr. Alfred M. Bongioanni, professor of pediatrics and obstetrics at the University of Pennsylvania, stated:
?I have learned from my earliest medical education that human life begins at the time of conception?. I submit that human life is present throughout this entire sequence from conception to adulthood and that any interruption at any point throughout this time constitutes a termination of human life?.
I am no more prepared to say that these early stages [of development in the womb] represent an incomplete human being than I would be to say that the child prior to the dramatic effects of puberty?is not a human being. This is human life at every stage.?
Dr. Jerome LeJeune, professor of genetics at the University of Descartes in Paris, was the discoverer of the chromosome pattern of Down syndrome. Dr. LeJeune testified to the Judiciary Subcommittee, ?after fertilization has taken place a new human being has come into being.?He stated that this ?is no longer a matter of taste or opinion,? and ?not a metaphysical contention, it is plain experimental evidence.? He added, ?Each individual has a very neat beginning, at conception.?
Professor Hymie Gordon, Mayo Clinic: ?By all the criteria of modern molecular biology, life is present from the moment of conception.?
Professor Micheline Matthews-Roth, Harvard University Medical School: ?It is incorrect to say that biological data cannot be decisive?. It is scientifically correct to say that an individual human life begins at conception?. Our laws, one function of which is to help preserve the lives of our people, should be based on accurate scientific data.?
Dr. Watson A. Bowes, University of Colorado Medical School: ?The beginning of a single human life is from a biological point of view a simple and straightforward matter?the beginning is conception. This straightforward biological fact should not be distorted to serve sociological, political, or economic goals.?
A prominent physician points out that at these Senate hearings, ?Pro-abortionists, though invited to do so, failed to produce even a single expert witness who would specifically testify that life begins at any point other than conception or implantation. Only one witness said no one can tell when life begins.?2
Many other prominent scientists and physicians have likewise affirmed with certainty that human life begins at conception:
Ashley Montague, a geneticist and professor at Harvard and Rutgers, is unsympathetic to the prolife cause. Nevertheless, he affirms unequivocally, ?The basic fact is simple: life begins not at birth, but conception.?3
Dr. Bernard Nathanson, internationally known obstetrician and gynecologist, was a cofounder of what is now the National Abortion Rights Action League (NARAL). He owned and operated what was at the time the largest abortion clinic in the western hemisphere. He was directly involved in over sixty thousand abortions.
Dr. Nathanson?s study of developments in the science of fetology and his use of ultrasound to observe the unborn child in the womb led him to the conclusion that he had made a horrible mistake. Resigning from his lucrative position, Nathanson wrote in the New England Journal of Medicine that he was deeply troubled by his ?increasing certainty that I had in fact presided over 60,000 deaths.?4
In his film, ?The Silent Scream,? Nathanson later stated, ?Modern technologies have convinced us that beyond question the unborn child is simply another human being, another member of the human community, indistinguishable in every way from any of us.? Dr. Nathanson wrote Aborting America to inform the public of the realities behind the abortion rights movement of which he had been a primary leader.5 At the time Dr. Nathanson was an atheist. His conclusions were not even remotely religious, but squarely based on the biological facts.
Dr. Landrum Shettles was for twenty-seven years attending obstetrician-gynecologist at Columbia-Presbyterian Medical Center in New York. Shettles was a pioneer in sperm biology, fertility, and sterility. He is internationally famous for being the discoverer of male- and female-producing sperm. His intrauterine photographs of preborn children appear in over fifty medical textbooks. Dr. Shettles states, I oppose abortion. I do so, first, because I accept what is biologically manifest?that human life commences at the time of conception?and, second, because I believe it is wrong to take innocent human life under any circumstances. My position is scientific, pragmatic, and humanitarian. 6
The First International Symposium on Abortion came to the following conclusion:
The changes occurring between implantation, a six-week embryo, a six-month fetus, a one-week-old child, or a mature adult are merely stages of development and maturation. The majority of our group could find no point in time between the union of sperm and egg, or at least the blastocyst stage, and the birth of the infant at which point we could say that this was not a human life.7
The Official Senate report on Senate Bill 158, the ?Human Life Bill,? summarized the issue this way:
Physicians, biologists, and other scientists agree that conception marks the beginning of the life of a human being?a being that is alive and is a member of the human species. There is overwhelming agreement on this point in countless medical, biological, and scientific writings.8
Footnotes:
1 Report, Subcommittee on Separation of Powers to Senate Judiciary Committee S-158, 97th Congress, 1st Session 1981.
2Landrum Shettles and David Rorvik, Rites of Life: The Scientific Evidence of Life Before Birth (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan Publishing House, 1983), 113.
3 Ashley Montague, Life Before Birth (New York: Signet Books, 1977), vi.
4Bernard N. Nathanson, ?Deeper into Abortion,? New England Journal of Medicine 291 (1974): 1189Ð90.
5Bernard Nathanson, Aborting America (Garden City, NY: Doubleday, 1979).
6Shettles and Rorvik, Rites of Life, 103.
7John C. Willke, Abortion Questions and Answers (Cincinnati, OH: Hayes Publishing, 1988), 42.
8Report, Subcommittee on Separation of Powers to Senate Judiciary Committee S-158, 97th Congress, 1st Session 1981, 7.
Permissions: Feel free to reproduce and distribute any articles written by Randy Alcorn, in part or in whole, in any format, provided that you do not alter the wording in any way or charge a fee beyond the cost of reproduction. It is our desire to spread this information, not protect or restrict it.
[quote]Voluminous wrote:
For such an aficionado of performing the act of potentially creating children; your stated opinion within the thread is odd. I wonder do you also advocate the non-usage of birth control & condoms; as they both also prevent a human being brought into being. I hazard a guess that you do not; nor does anyone else shouting from the rooftops about PP being so vile & disgusting for offering choice.
[/quote]
Absolutely no rational person in this thread is advocating the prevention of creation of life. We are however advocating the cessation of ending that life once it is created.
I am all for people being allowed to choose if they want a child. However once they create a human being, which is what that fetus is, they have already made their choice. I believe people should have the choice to prevent a pregnancy same as you. I do not believe anyone has the right to end a human life which is what that “thing” with the beating heart that writhes in pain (because its nervous system has developed) when burned or tries to pull away when grasped before being torn from its mother and ripped apart is.[/quote]
Long time lurker on the site first time posting.
To get some perspective, the death of a human being is determined by the lack of brain activity. Thus medically and scientifically speaking the life a human being would happen when there is measured brain waves. Roughly around 8 weeks there is a heart beat, but that is not the definition of life if that is not the determination of death. At around 14 weeks the fetus starts moving to environmental stimuli, but these are reflexes. At around 20 weeks the Thalamus is completely formed, which is the relay center for the brain and there is brain waves. The brain waves are just in spurts and not a regular brain activity wave pattern. Regular brain waves happen around 25 weeks.
Considering a human is medically deceased when brain activity has ceased by that definition human life would happen at 20 or 25 weeks when there is brain activity. If you believe life happens when there is a heartbeat that is only an opinion and holds no water in actual reality when that is not the definition of death. [/quote]
A unique and individual human life begins at conception. That is scientific fact. Defining human life as simply the opposite of death is short sighted at best.
If you want to argue an abortion should be legal until brain function that’s one thing, but claiming a fetus is not a unique individual human life pre-brain wave function is simply wrong.
How is it short sighted? You can’t have 2 different definitions because its your opinion. I am arguing an abortion should be legal until brain function. I am not claiming that the fetus doesn’t have the possibility to be a unique human.
That hitman thing is completely irrelevant. One is murder and hiring a hitman would be conspiracy to commit murder. We are talking about abortion, which is not murder, if after brain activity would then be considered murder. In those cases it would be a late term abortion and only be done in extreme circumstances.
