Planned Parenthood

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
581

[quote]hmm87 wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
But my point stands if a child’s life would be better off dead , I opt to let the child die [/quote]

Glad you’re the all knowing and wonderful Master of the Universe and KNOW if someone would be better off dead.

Who the fuck are you to make that determination? Oh right… You aren’t fit to, ever. [/quote]

Speaking of “better off dead,” I got to thinking…if some innocent children “would be better off dead” where might that leave us with with a guilty adult who incessantly wishes death on those children…?
[/quote]

The whole issue is a non issue . It is impossible to human live with out a brain, You may keep a mass of flesh from decomposing but that is it
[/quote]

Except it isn’t impossible. [/quote]
[/quote]
So your contention is brain stem equals human?? That’s why you are so vehemently arguing this point? That is definitely what you appear to be saying which means we all agree, abortion is homicide because the brain starts working by week 4 (which in most instances is before a woman even realizes she is pregnant). Glad you have come around to our way of thinking.

However if you are not making that contention then you are just wasting everyone’s time on a red herring because you realize how weak your argument is. One of the two are correct, Which is it?

582

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:

[quote]hmm87 wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
But my point stands if a child’s life would be better off dead , I opt to let the child die [/quote]

Glad you’re the all knowing and wonderful Master of the Universe and KNOW if someone would be better off dead.

Who the fuck are you to make that determination? Oh right… You aren’t fit to, ever. [/quote]

Speaking of “better off dead,” I got to thinking…if some innocent children “would be better off dead” where might that leave us with with a guilty adult who incessantly wishes death on those children…?
[/quote]

The whole issue is a non issue . It is impossible to human live with out a brain, You may keep a mass of flesh from decomposing but that is it
[/quote]

Except it isn’t impossible. [/quote]
[/quote]
So your contention is brain stem equals human?? That’s why you are so vehemently arguing this point? That is definitely what you appear to be saying which means we all agree, abortion is homicide because the brain starts working by week 4 (which in most instances is before a woman even realizes she is pregnant). Glad you have come around to our way of thinking.

However if you are not making that contention then you are just wasting everyone’s time on a red herring because you realize how weak your argument is. One of the two are correct, Which is it?
[/quote]

Yeah, it’s murder. Never said it wasn’t. But we justify murder all the time. I believe it was usmccds423 who said it’s called “compromise”

583

[quote]hmm87 wrote:

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:

[quote]hmm87 wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
But my point stands if a child’s life would be better off dead , I opt to let the child die [/quote]

Glad you’re the all knowing and wonderful Master of the Universe and KNOW if someone would be better off dead.

Who the fuck are you to make that determination? Oh right… You aren’t fit to, ever. [/quote]

Speaking of “better off dead,” I got to thinking…if some innocent children “would be better off dead” where might that leave us with with a guilty adult who incessantly wishes death on those children…?
[/quote]

The whole issue is a non issue . It is impossible to human live with out a brain, You may keep a mass of flesh from decomposing but that is it
[/quote]

Except it isn’t impossible. [/quote]
[/quote]
So your contention is brain stem equals human?? That’s why you are so vehemently arguing this point? That is definitely what you appear to be saying which means we all agree, abortion is homicide because the brain starts working by week 4 (which in most instances is before a woman even realizes she is pregnant). Glad you have come around to our way of thinking.

However if you are not making that contention then you are just wasting everyone’s time on a red herring because you realize how weak your argument is. One of the two are correct, Which is it?
[/quote]

Yeah, it’s murder. Never said it wasn’t. But we justify murder all the time. I believe it was usmccds423 who said it’s called “compromise”[/quote]

I live in this place called reality where I’d rather save tens of thousands of lives by compromising on a rape exception than not save any lives at all.

Crazy I know…

584
  • hundreds of thousands, a year
585

[quote]hmm87 wrote:

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:

[quote]hmm87 wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
But my point stands if a child’s life would be better off dead , I opt to let the child die [/quote]

Glad you’re the all knowing and wonderful Master of the Universe and KNOW if someone would be better off dead.

Who the fuck are you to make that determination? Oh right… You aren’t fit to, ever. [/quote]

Speaking of “better off dead,” I got to thinking…if some innocent children “would be better off dead” where might that leave us with with a guilty adult who incessantly wishes death on those children…?
[/quote]

The whole issue is a non issue . It is impossible to human live with out a brain, You may keep a mass of flesh from decomposing but that is it
[/quote]

Except it isn’t impossible. [/quote]
[/quote]
So your contention is brain stem equals human?? That’s why you are so vehemently arguing this point? That is definitely what you appear to be saying which means we all agree, abortion is homicide because the brain starts working by week 4 (which in most instances is before a woman even realizes she is pregnant). Glad you have come around to our way of thinking.

However if you are not making that contention then you are just wasting everyone’s time on a red herring because you realize how weak your argument is. One of the two are correct, Which is it?
[/quote]

Yeah, it’s murder. Never said it wasn’t. But we justify murder all the time. I believe it was usmccds423 who said it’s called “compromise”[/quote]

we disagree , it is not murder . If nothing more than definition , at this time it is lawful

mur·der
Ë?mÉ?rdÉ?r/
noun
noun: murder; plural noun: murders

1.
the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.
"the stabbing murder of an off-Broadway producer"
synonyms:	killing, homicide, assassination, liquidation, extermination, execution, slaughter, butchery, massacre; More
manslaughter;
literaryslaying
"a brutal murder"
    informal
    a very difficult or unpleasant task or experience.
    "my first job at the steel mill was murder"
    synonyms:	hell, hell on earth, a nightmare, an ordeal, a trial, misery, torture, agony
    "driving there was murder"

verb
verb: murder; 3rd person present: murders; past tense: murdered; past participle: murdered; gerund or present participle: murdering

1.
kill (someone) unlawfully and with premeditation.
"somebody tried to murder Joe"
synonyms:	kill, put to death, assassinate, execute, liquidate, eliminate, dispatch, butcher, slaughter, massacre, wipe out; More
informalbump off, do in, do away with, knock off, blow away, blow someone's brains out, take out, dispose of, ice, rub out, smoke, waste;
literaryslay
"someone tried to murder him"
    informal
    punish severely or be very angry with.
    "my father will murder me if I'm home late"
    informal
    conclusively defeat (an opponent) in a game or sport.
    spoil by lack of skill or knowledge.
    "the only thing he had murdered was the English language"

in my opinion the fetus turns into a person . I estimate as the time it can support it’s own heart rate and respiration . I could in good conscience error on the side of the fetus:)

586

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:
My question for usmccds, whats the minimal you can remove from a persons body to have them not considered a person?

For example

  • Pittpull says no brain, not a person he says
  • No left hand, still a person I say
  • Everything but the left hand, not a person I say[/quote]

The premise of personhood is non-sense in my opinion. It semantics. If you find a left hand on the ground you say, “Oh shit, that’s a person’s hand.”

You aren’t going to convince me that the 12 year old I posted, who could breath on his own and his heart beat on it’s own, wasn’t a person because he didn’t have a brain. We might as well agree to disagree if you’re going to try. [/quote]

The problem is there are other circumstances where someone can’t breath on their own or heart function on its own. Maybe your definition is any 2 of the 3 is a person? breathing/brain/heart

In any case can we at least agree the missing brain person is one that should be dead but is unnecessarily being kept alive?

587

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:
My question for usmccds, whats the minimal you can remove from a persons body to have them not considered a person?

For example

  • Pittpull says no brain, not a person he says
  • No left hand, still a person I say
  • Everything but the left hand, not a person I say[/quote]

The premise of personhood is non-sense in my opinion. It semantics. If you find a left hand on the ground you say, “Oh shit, that’s a person’s hand.”

You aren’t going to convince me that the 12 year old I posted, who could breath on his own and his heart beat on it’s own, wasn’t a person because he didn’t have a brain. We might as well agree to disagree if you’re going to try. [/quote]

The problem is there are other circumstances where someone can’t breath on their own or heart function on its own. Maybe your definition is any 2 of the 3 is a person? breathing/brain/heart

In any case can we at least agree the missing brain person is one that should be dead but is unnecessarily being kept alive?
[/quote]

What other disabilities are deserving of death? people with body wasting diseases? Down syndrome?

Who the hell are you to decide if it’s better for someone else’s child to be dead?

Either a person has god given human rights and dignity or there is no such thing as human rights. Science, logic, and fact say something is a human being, and you believe in natural human rights, there is ONLY one conclusion.

588

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
What other disabilities are deserving of death? people with body wasting diseases? Down syndrome?
[/quote]

I was simply commenting on the no brain disability that was mentioned earlier, maybe there are others, maybe not so I’ll just go with that for now.

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Who the hell are you to decide if it’s better for someone else’s child to be dead?
[/quote]

It’s just an opinion, am I not allowed to have one? Luckily for you I am not in a position to ever need to make this decision for someone elses child, so why does it matter?

590

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

What other disabilities are deserving of death? people with body wasting diseases? Down syndrome?

Who the hell are you to decide if it’s better for someone else’s child to be dead?
[/quote]

Talk about a straw man , we were talking about a corpse that was never alive except as a sperm and part of it’s host (mother) Nature can dictate who lives and dies . As far as the Mother goes , as long as that life can not be separated from the mother , it’s life is at the mother’s discretion

591

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:
My question for usmccds, whats the minimal you can remove from a persons body to have them not considered a person?

For example

  • Pittpull says no brain, not a person he says
  • No left hand, still a person I say
  • Everything but the left hand, not a person I say[/quote]

The premise of personhood is non-sense in my opinion. It semantics. If you find a left hand on the ground you say, “Oh shit, that’s a person’s hand.”

You aren’t going to convince me that the 12 year old I posted, who could breath on his own and his heart beat on it’s own, wasn’t a person because he didn’t have a brain. We might as well agree to disagree if you’re going to try. [/quote]

The problem is there are other circumstances where someone can’t breath on their own or heart function on its own. Maybe your definition is any 2 of the 3 is a person? breathing/brain/heart [/quote]

I define a person as a human being. Conception to death. Like I said, I think this whole line of reasoning is just semantics.

I won’t agree that they “should” be dead, but if the parents let nature take it’s course I think that’s perfectly acceptable. I certainly don’t believe there should be a law forcing parents to pull the plug or force parents to use life support.

592

Its not a thing.

593

[quote]asbutane wrote:
Its not a thing.[/quote]

So profound, much knowledge :confused:

594

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
I define a person as a human being. Conception to death. Like I said, I think this whole line of reasoning is just semantics.
[/quote]

I guess the issue is when do you declare death? Pitt was saying at a certain point its just machines keeping a mass of cells alive until you pull the plug. If someone “dies” we can (and must) keep their organs alive if they are planning to be donated, are they still alive? Whats the difference between this dead person in some phase of organ donation and the person born without a brain?

595

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
I define a person as a human being. Conception to death. Like I said, I think this whole line of reasoning is just semantics.
[/quote]

I guess the issue is when do you declare death? [/quote]

When the person is dead…

[quote]
Pitt was saying at a certain point its just machines keeping a mass of cells alive until you pull the plug. If someone “dies” we can (and must) keep their organs alive if they are planning to be donated, are they still alive? [/quote]

What Pitt actually said was that that lump of cells is not a person because they don’t have a brain, machines are keeping them alive (false in this case), and using machines to keep them alive is torture. He literally said he doesn’t think the 12 year old in question is a person. Do you?

I don’t follow what organ donation has to do with anything? The organs have to be kept viable for use I guess. The tissue is alive. The person is not.

[quote]
Whats the difference between this dead person in some phase of organ donation and the person born without a brain?[/quote]

Uh they aren’t in some phase of organ donation, they aren’t dead yet, etc… The 12 year old needed a feeding tube otherwise his heart and lungs operated on their own.

What’s the difference between Stephen Hawking and the 12 year old without most of his brain? Are they both “dead” just waiting for the plug to be pulled?

I don’t even really follow your logic. So if you’re on life support you are already dead? That doesn’t make any sense.

596

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
What Pitt actually said was that that lump of cells is not a person because they don’t have a brain, machines are keeping them alive (false in this case), and using machines to keep them alive is torture. He literally said he doesn’t think the 12 year old in question is a person. Do you?
[/quote]

I don’t agree with him in this case, but person/personhood is used for philosophical and legal purposes so there is some room for interpretation so I don’t think he is as wrong as you think he is even though we don’t agree with him. In our past certain races may not have been considered a person, in the distant future there will be some example of a person you would argue on these forms was not.

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
What’s the difference between Stephen Hawking and the 12 year old without most of his brain? Are they both “dead” just waiting for the plug to be pulled?
[/quote]

The brain? Brain function is the most important to be alive, other things are not as important.

597

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
What Pitt actually said was that that lump of cells is not a person because they don’t have a brain, machines are keeping them alive (false in this case), and using machines to keep them alive is torture. He literally said he doesn’t think the 12 year old in question is a person. Do you?
[/quote]

I don’t agree with him in this case, but person/personhood is used for philosophical and legal purposes so there is some room for interpretation so I don’t think he is as wrong as you think he is even though we don’t agree with him. In our past certain races may not have been considered a person, in the distant future there will be some example of a person you would argue on these forms was not.

[/quote]
Right, in the past certain people where treated as if they were not people, blacks for example, we would now laugh a person or of town for such an absurd claim yet that is what the pro-choice crowd champions. It’s non-sense.

The brain? Brain function is the most important to be alive, other things are not as important.[/quote]

The brain stem is arguably the most important; however, this whole conversation is relatively moot anyway as only 4 prolonged cases of anencephaly have ever been recorded. Either way, I don’t see how Hawking who has basically 1% of normal human function and is kept alive by machines is a person while the anencephaly patients are not.

Seems pretty arbitrary to me.

598

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

What other disabilities are deserving of death? people with body wasting diseases? Down syndrome?

Who the hell are you to decide if it’s better for someone else’s child to be dead?
[/quote]

Talk about a straw man , we were talking about a corpse that was never alive except as a sperm and part of it’s host (mother) Nature can dictate who lives and dies . As far as the Mother goes , as long as that life can not be separated from the mother , it’s life is at the mother’s discretion [/quote]

That isn’t at all what was being discussed. We were discussing the opinion that children born with a specific disability didn’t deserve to be kept alive even when medically possible. Especially when posed as a question, it certainly isn’t a straw man. Try to keep up.

599

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

What other disabilities are deserving of death? people with body wasting diseases? Down syndrome?

Who the hell are you to decide if it’s better for someone else’s child to be dead?
[/quote]

Talk about a straw man , we were talking about a corpse that was never alive except as a sperm and part of it’s host (mother) Nature can dictate who lives and dies . As far as the Mother goes , as long as that life can not be separated from the mother , it’s life is at the mother’s discretion [/quote]

That isn’t at all what was being discussed. We were discussing the opinion that children born with a specific disability didn’t deserve to be kept alive even when medically possible. Especially when posed as a question, it certainly isn’t a straw man. Try to keep up.[/quote]

You will have to excuse me , I did not hear any one say children with special needs didn’t deserve to live .

I will say IMO if a mother knows knows the baby is defective , it is the mothers option to abort . And if you disagree you should have to render care and support

600

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]hmm87 wrote:

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:

[quote]hmm87 wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
But my point stands if a child’s life would be better off dead , I opt to let the child die [/quote]

Glad you’re the all knowing and wonderful Master of the Universe and KNOW if someone would be better off dead.

Who the fuck are you to make that determination? Oh right… You aren’t fit to, ever. [/quote]

Speaking of “better off dead,” I got to thinking…if some innocent children “would be better off dead” where might that leave us with with a guilty adult who incessantly wishes death on those children…?
[/quote]

The whole issue is a non issue . It is impossible to human live with out a brain, You may keep a mass of flesh from decomposing but that is it
[/quote]

Except it isn’t impossible. [/quote]
[/quote]
So your contention is brain stem equals human?? That’s why you are so vehemently arguing this point? That is definitely what you appear to be saying which means we all agree, abortion is homicide because the brain starts working by week 4 (which in most instances is before a woman even realizes she is pregnant). Glad you have come around to our way of thinking.

However if you are not making that contention then you are just wasting everyone’s time on a red herring because you realize how weak your argument is. One of the two are correct, Which is it?
[/quote]

Yeah, it’s murder. Never said it wasn’t. But we justify murder all the time. I believe it was usmccds423 who said it’s called “compromise”[/quote]

we disagree , it is not murder . If nothing more than definition , at this time it is lawful

mur�·der
Ã??mÃ??rdÃ??r/
noun
noun: murder; plural noun: murders

1.
the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.
"the stabbing murder of an off-Broadway producer"
synonyms:	killing, homicide, assassination, liquidation, extermination, execution, slaughter, butchery, massacre; More
manslaughter;
literaryslaying
"a brutal murder"
    informal
    a very difficult or unpleasant task or experience.
    "my first job at the steel mill was murder"
    synonyms:	hell, hell on earth, a nightmare, an ordeal, a trial, misery, torture, agony
    "driving there was murder"

verb
verb: murder; 3rd person present: murders; past tense: murdered; past participle: murdered; gerund or present participle: murdering

1.
kill (someone) unlawfully and with premeditation.
"somebody tried to murder Joe"
synonyms:	kill, put to death, assassinate, execute, liquidate, eliminate, dispatch, butcher, slaughter, massacre, wipe out; More
informalbump off, do in, do away with, knock off, blow away, blow someone's brains out, take out, dispose of, ice, rub out, smoke, waste;
literaryslay
"someone tried to murder him"
    informal
    punish severely or be very angry with.
    "my father will murder me if I'm home late"
    informal
    conclusively defeat (an opponent) in a game or sport.
    spoil by lack of skill or knowledge.
    "the only thing he had murdered was the English language"

in my opinion the fetus turns into a person . I estimate as the time it can support it’s own heart rate and respiration . I could in good conscience error on the side of the fetus:)
[/quote]

That’s why I was careful not to say murder. I said homicide. There is no ambiguity that way. But you failed to read thoroughly enough and now your last argument is completely invalid in addressing my point.