[quote]Bismark wrote:
Many embryos that result from conception - indeed, the majority of them - lack the capacity to become living human beings. Are those human embryos people, or not? Biology would suggest the latter.
The human brain should be the standard. After all, it is when brain function ceases that a person is declared clinically deceased. When a fetus has developed a brain that can support its basic biological functions, probably at around six months of life, it can be reasonably argued that personhood has begun. Abortions at this point should be illegal. [/quote]
You can “hear” a babies heart beat around 6-8 weeks gestation. Shit I think by 8 it’s fully formed into chambers.
So, what makes that heart beat? Is it the mother’s brain? [/quote]
Fetus. It isn’t a baby until birth. So? Brain dead patients hearts may beat, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t clinically dead. The brain is the self. If it isn’t alive, neither is a person. It isn’t until 25 weeks that fetal brain activity begins to exhibit regular wave patterns.
A rudimentary nervous system. The definition of death is not disputed, and is considered the time when electroencephalography (EEG) activity ceases. It isn’t unreasonable to hold the opposite as the beginning of personhood. It’s pretty conservative of me to draw the line there. In Jewish Talmudic Law, life doesn’t begin until childbirth.
[quote]Bismark wrote:
Many embryos that result from conception - indeed, the majority of them - lack the capacity to become living human beings. Are those human embryos people, or not? Biology would suggest the latter.
The human brain should be the standard. After all, it is when brain function ceases that a person is declared clinically deceased. When a fetus has developed a brain that can support its basic biological functions, probably at around six months of life, it can be reasonably argued that personhood has begun. Abortions at this point should be illegal. [/quote]
You can “hear” a babies heart beat around 6-8 weeks gestation. Shit I think by 8 it’s fully formed into chambers.
So, what makes that heart beat? Is it the mother’s brain? [/quote]
Fetus. It isn’t a baby until birth. So? Brain dead patients hearts may beat, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t clinically dead. The brain is the self. If it isn’t alive, neither is a person. It isn’t until 25 weeks that fetal brain activity begins to exhibit regular wave patterns.
A rudimentary nervous system. The definition of death is not disputed, and is considered the time when electroencephalography (EEG) activity ceases. It isn’t unreasonable to hold the opposite as the beginning of personhood. It’s pretty conservative of me to draw the line there. In Jewish Talmudic Law, life doesn’t begin until childbirth. [/quote]
It should also be noted that an injured brain and a brain in the early stages of development are NOT equivalent. One is a normally functioning human organ and the other is a abnormally non-fuctioning damaged organ. Nor is there any scientific debate that an embryo is in fact alive and not clinically dead.
[quote]Bismark wrote:
Many embryos that result from conception - indeed, the majority of them - lack the capacity to become living human beings. Are those human embryos people, or not? Biology would suggest the latter.
The human brain should be the standard. After all, it is when brain function ceases that a person is declared clinically deceased. When a fetus has developed a brain that can support its basic biological functions, probably at around six months of life, it can be reasonably argued that personhood has begun. Abortions at this point should be illegal. [/quote]
You can “hear” a babies heart beat around 6-8 weeks gestation. Shit I think by 8 it’s fully formed into chambers.
So, what makes that heart beat? Is it the mother’s brain? [/quote]
Fetus. It isn’t a baby until birth. So? Brain dead patients hearts may beat, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t clinically dead. The brain is the self. If it isn’t alive, neither is a person. It isn’t until 25 weeks that fetal brain activity begins to exhibit regular wave patterns.
A rudimentary nervous system. The definition of death is not disputed, and is considered the time when electroencephalography (EEG) activity ceases. It isn’t unreasonable to hold the opposite as the beginning of personhood. It’s pretty conservative of me to draw the line there. In Jewish Talmudic Law, life doesn’t begin until childbirth. [/quote]
Wow, you know even less about child birth than you do about the Iran nuclear deal.
Does that make you feel better about genocide? Calling babies a technical name?
[quote] So? Brain dead patients hearts may beat, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t clinically dead. The brain is the self. If it isn’t alive, neither is a person. It isn’t until 25 weeks that fetal brain activity begins to exhibit regular wave patterns.
A rudimentary nervous system. The definition of death is not disputed, and is considered the time when electroencephalography (EEG) activity ceases. It isn’t unreasonable to hold the opposite as the beginning of personhood.[/quote]
One, personhood is utter bullshit. There is no “moment of personhood” beyond the moment of conception. A person is either a person from start to finish, or they are not. Pretty sure we’ve had this discussion before using skin color and religious affiliation, and have come to the conclusion that people are people after all.
Two, the consideration of when someone is dead certainly depends on the future, not just the present. Your trying to apply this to early stages of development is ignoring the future.
Yeah in the “black people aren’t people and neither are jews” sort of conserving tradition.
Look at it this way. If an adult gets a brain disease and his mental state drops to exactly that of a 2 year old, they are diseased. They are treated as diseased. They can be medicated, put through therapy, institutionalized, est. However, a 2 year old with the same metal capacity is not diseased and of those things are applied. We do not institutionalize them, we do not medicate and put them in thearapy to try to make them function like adults. Why? Because they have absolutely NORMAL brains and brain activity for that stage of human development. A diseased or injured adult brain is not medically or morally equivalent to a NORMAL less developed brain EVEN if brain function is the same. What bismark is asserting is medically and logically false.
Genocide Beans? Really? You’re far emotive to look at the matter objectively.
My point is, fetal brain waves begin to occur with regularity at around 25 weeks. Life begins at conception, but personhood is a murkier definition. A don’t believe that gametes or embryos meet that definition, as the majority don’t possess the capacity to become a full fledged organism. Science isn’t about to define personhood. Until then, its perfectly reasonable for me to set the standard by what makes us human - the brain.
DD, you’re Catholic, correct? What are your thoughts on contraceptives?
[quote]Bismark wrote:
Genocide Beans? Really? You’re far emotive to look at the matter objectively.
My point is, fetal brain waves begin to occur with regularity at around 25 weeks. Life begins at conception, but personhood is a murkier definition. A don’t believe that gametes or embryos meet that definition, as the majority don’t possess the capacity to become a full fledged organism. Science isn’t about to define personhood. Until then, its perfectly reasonable for me to set the standard by what makes us human - the brain.
DD, you’re Catholic, correct? What are your thoughts on contraceptives? [/quote]
So if your brain activity ceases for 1 minute, you aren’t a person and deserve no protections on your life and can therefore be killed. Even brain dead people (very different morally and medically than a normally functional human) on life support can’t be chopped up. Science can’t say when person hood starts because no one who uses the term in this argument can define what it means. From what I can tell it amounts to little more than psychological distancing of “they aren’t like us”. Gee, where have I heard that before?
And no I’m not catholic and I use birth control. I do believe you shouldn’t have sex without being willing and able to care for a child though.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
From what I can tell it amounts to little more than psychological distancing of “they aren’t like us”. Gee, where have I heard that before?
[/quote]
This.
I grew up just as adamantly pro-abortion as I am pro-life now. Consider it guilt and trying to make up for lost time.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
From what I can tell it amounts to little more than psychological distancing of “they aren’t like us”. Gee, where have I heard that before?
[/quote]
This.
I grew up just as adamantly pro-abortion as I am pro-life now. Consider it guilt and trying to make up for lost time. [/quote]
My parents are catechists, so I suppose we took an opposite path.
The only times you refer to are when a woman is raped. No arguments there. However you can [i]NOT[/i] argue the case for all of abortions when rape accounts for such a small number.
Where is your source showing that the “glob of goo gradually becomes a person?”
What is YOUR definition for viability?
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
If you try and tell me that the woman?s body is her own and the child does not have a right to be there, we have two things to reply; nature determines the location of the developing child and second, the woman took part in the activity known to create life. And finally, what is the exact moment when a person comes into existence?[/quote]
There are cases that a woman may not have participated willingly. In my opinion that glob of goo gradually becomes a person . I believe at the time of viability does that child own his own life , before that it’s life is at the will of the mother [/quote]
…its perfectly reasonable for me to set the standard by what makes us human - the brain…
[/quote]
You get to set the standard, eh?
You?
[/quote]
Not definitively, just within the realm of this discussion. A personal standard. I certainly wouldn’t want it translated to actualized policy. Not without a hell of a lot of empirical evidence.
See your post says nothing person-hood is a relevant term and in your opinion person-hood begins at conception . I on the other hand have a differing opinion . Get it ?
[/quote]
No, personhood is bullshit made up by:
slavers
Nazi’s
&
Abortion Advocates
You know, people into genocide and hard eugenics.
In order to justify the fact they know they are killing innocent people.
You keep great company. Enjoy that. [/quote]
While I get your point I disagree , my original post was two fold one was about a glob of goo and the other was about militarily dominating a people , forcing them to live in subhuman conditions
