Plane Crash & Spirituality

Off Topic
41

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
You related a positive frame of mind (I assume of the spiritual person) to someone saying “everything is ok” despite everything falling apart around them currently. That isn’t a positive frame of mind. That is insanity. A positive frame of mind realizes the problem and reflects on hope of resolving that problem with a solution and hope that things will be better soon enough.ain

Way to agree with me without realizing it, prof.

Go back and read my post again. The part where I wrote that it’s NOT saying “everything is okay” despite the evidence, blah blah blah…

It’s the little words that trip us up sometimes… :)[/quote]

Whatever, man. Like you don’t misread me sometimes. Or…perhaps you mumble when you type.

42

[quote]Professor X wrote:

To relate anything about the way I think to the simplicity of children would be considered an insult to most people. The fact that you pretend this isn’t the case is what suprises me.

[/quote]

And I thought that your messiah said that those that are like children…

was he mocking you?

He saw that as a virtue.

Anyway, I tend to think that religion is “planted” in a human being when it?s mind is still open to anything it?s parents tell it, so the connection to child-like superstition is probably there.

The fact that this offends you makes it neither more or less true, btw, Galileo Galilei as well as Darwin offended lots of people.

43

Sorry for the thread hijack, but I thought that, unless you’re a small child or maybe elderly, American scorpion stings aren’t usually life-threatening… they just really, really hurt.

I thought it was only the African scorpions that you really gotta look out for. Another saying I’ve heard is, “the smaller the claws, the worse the sting.”

Sorry, I’d just genuinely interested, I used to be obsessed with scorpions as a kid.

Later,
Rob

[quote]teamstaley wrote:
Saturday night I am sitting on my couch going through the newspaper and my barefeet are on the ground.something in me says “look down” and as I look down I see a scorpion about to crawl onto my foot, not even an inch from it. If you live in Az you hear the death horror stories of scorpion stings.

Even if you spray you are never really safe from them. I have lived through cancer and the thought of a sting (or my children getting stung) for some reason scares me more. It was a sobering rest of the night and really made me think more of my own mortality.

It made me think of “close calls” in my life and what is it inside of us that gives us that intuition. There are small blessings around at all times. I guess it’s just my guardian angel working overtime. -Jules[/quote]

44

[quote]orion wrote:
Professor X wrote:

To relate anything about the way I think to the simplicity of children would be considered an insult to most people. The fact that you pretend this isn’t the case is what suprises me.

And I thought that your messiah said that those that are like children…

was he mocking you?

He saw that as a virtue.
[/quote]

You deserve to be laughed at for that one. Am I to now believe that people who relate those who believe in God to believing in Santa Clause are doing so out of great respect and are using it as a compliment? Please…say, ‘yes’.

[quote]
Anyway, I tend to think that religion is “planted” in a human being when it?s mind is still open to anything it?s parents tell it, so the connection to child-like superstition is probably there.

The fact that this offends you makes it neither more or less true, btw, Galileo Galilei as well as Darwin offended lots of people. [/quote]

Religion is often followed due to tradition. Religion and Spirituality are not one in the same. Belief in a higher power and Religion are also not one in the same. Your statement doesn’t offend me at all. It simply shows me that you don’t even understand what is being said. If you need clarity, just ask.

45

One of the previous posts brought up a good point. Maybe my approach to spirituality is someting that comes from teachings. My thinking is it has to be learned from books or a formal setting. I get the feeling that many of you believe that true spirituality can only be discovered by yourself. In a sense, this is both exciting and frightful… seeking enlightenment without a guide.

I know this is a personal question, but what do some of you practice? I have been trying to read on Hindu philosophies as well as Buddhism etc…Again, there is my fear of seeking enlightenment without a guide!!!

46

[quote]nolecat wrote:
One of the previous posts brought up a good point. Maybe my approach to spirituality is someting that comes from teachings. My thinking is it has to be learned from books or a formal setting. I get the feeling that many of you believe that true spirituality can only be discovered by yourself. In a sense, this is both exciting and frightful… seeking enlightenment without a guide.

I know this is a personal question, but what do some of you practice? I have been trying to read on Hindu philosophies as well as Buddhism etc…Again, there is my fear of seeking enlightenment without a guide!!! [/quote]

Well I thought that my point was that there are “religions”, “philosophies” that have specific instructions and exercises and then there are those that have not.

It is of course not as clear cut as this, but “religions” without a God or higher being you have to serve seem to focus more on spirituality.

My example for this would be Taoism and its branches, Buddism, Zen, Zen Buddism…

47

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
I think that spirituality is not found in self-delusion (I am going to live forever as a spirit with Jesus/Buddha/Allah/FSM and eternal twinkies and beer), because this is avoidance of reality, not confronting it with strength and wisdom.[/quote]

Why is believing in a god self-delusional, which means having a persistent belief in something despite indisputable evidence to the contrary? I find your statement to be utterly absurd, unless of course you can prove without a doubt that no god exists.

everyone is entitled to their own definitions, but I’m not sure your definition excludes religious people.

That was a nice poem. But to quote Nietzsche: “Poets muddy shallow waters to make them appear deep.”

True spirituality is not found in poems nor does the fact that you can write a poem make you an authority on spirituality or the falseness of religion.

Look, I couldn’t care less if you guys believe in a God or not, but for the sake of all that’s good, quit discounting religion as anti-spiritual, when honestly, you probably haven’t explored religion beyond a Philosophy 101 textbook and discussion.

DB

48

[quote]Professor X wrote:
orion wrote:
Professor X wrote:

To relate anything about the way I think to the simplicity of children would be considered an insult to most people. The fact that you pretend this isn’t the case is what suprises me.

And I thought that your messiah said that those that are like children…

was he mocking you?

He saw that as a virtue.

You deserve to be laughed at for that one. Am I to now believe that people who relate those who believe in God to believing in Santa Clause are doing so out of great respect and are using it as a compliment? Please…say, ‘yes’.

Anyway, I tend to think that religion is “planted” in a human being when it?s mind is still open to anything it?s parents tell it, so the connection to child-like superstition is probably there.

The fact that this offends you makes it neither more or less true, btw, Galileo Galilei as well as Darwin offended lots of people.

Religion is often followed due to tradition. Religion and Spirituality are not one in the same. Belief in a higher power and Religion are also not one in the same. Your statement doesn’t offend me at all. It simply shows me that you don’t even understand what is being said. If you need clarity, just ask.[/quote]

I am having trouble making sense of your post:

I said that what some people critizise (which seems to annoy you) was praised as a virtue by your Messiah:

Child like belief.

Yes, a lot of people do not see that as a virtue anymore, but it is part of your religion, is it not?

I also pointed out that you being offended does not make a statement more or less true.

It is only a hint that you get easily annoyed by something, it is a “hook” for you and Buddhist exercises could teach you how to let it go…

:slight_smile:

49

[quote]Professor X wrote:

Let me ask you, if I compared your love for your wife, daughter, or husband (as the case may be) to the affection I show a stray dog when attempting to not run it over, would you not think I was unable to truly see the significance of what you consider “love”? I’m not a child.[/quote]

If you had a valid point to make, and you were simply calling upon that situation in order to describe a quality of my affection by drawing a comparison, it really wouldn’t bother me in the least. If you said, “you love your family no more than I do an animal that I swirve away from on the road,” then of course I’d be offended. Do you see the difference between the two, or do you not believe they are different?

You shouldn’t be so hard on children. In fact, sometimes thinking the way a child does can be an advantage. Magicians and conjurers have often noted that children are the most difficult to trick by slight of hand. The reason for that is because they haven’t lived long enough to develop preconceptions and to make assumptions about what they see. So the exaggerated hand movement that’s intended to convey that a card was transferred from one hand to the next doesn’t register as that to a young child who isn’t as accustomed to seeing that movement yet, and thus kids have made many an accomplished magician look like a bit of a hack. But I digress…

[quote]That’s why I never get these arguments. Why do some religious folks insist on couching their beliefs in scientific terms? Wouldn’t providing evidence for the existence of God eliminate faith? And what is religion without the need for faith? Science, no?

Who has said there isn’t a difference between pure faith and science? I sure didn’t. I haven’t seen anyone write that in this thread either.[/quote]

Hmm. The point of what I wrote wasn’t to show how religion and science are different. Maybe I wasn’t clear enough.

I thought that your previous post objecting to comparisons between religious beliefs and beliefs in childhood fantasy creatures was aimed at asserting that comparing the two is an insult since religious beliefs are legitimate and childhood beliefs are pure fantasy. But since both are based on faith with an acknowledged lack of evidence, I didn’t see the comparison as being erroneous or ill-intended, but like most analogies, as a tool to help elucidate properties of one thing by comparing it to another. It’s very different from saying, “believing in God is as stupid as believing in the tooth fairy.” It’s more like saying, “a belief in God exists in spite of an absence of evidence, and in that way it is similar to a belief in the tooth fairy” You know?

50

[quote]ChrisPowers wrote:
If you had a valid point to make, and you were simply calling upon that situation in order to describe a quality of my affection by drawing a comparison, it really wouldn’t bother me in the least. If you said, “you love your family no more than I do an animal that I swirve away from on the road,” then of course I’d be offended. Do you see the difference between the two, or do you not believe they are different?[/quote]

That difference is exactly what is being referred when someone’s spiritual beliefs are related to a child’s fantasy about Santa Clause.

You sure as hell did.

I think I have made it pretty clear what I was objecting to.

[quote]It’s very different from saying, “believing in God is as stupid as believing in the tooth fairy.” It’s more like saying, “a belief in God exists in spite of an absence of evidence, and in that way it is similar to a belief in the tooth fairy” You know?
[/quote]

Ah, so whenever this is done, it is simply an attempt by the person to understand and not done as an insult. Got it. I will be sure to jot that down as, according to you, none of these expressions are intended to degrade what someone believes and are all wonderful little asides about how children can not be fooled by magicians and such. Cool.

51

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:

“shit happens, I’m over it, what can we do about it?”

Make sense?[/quote]

Absolute sense.

Except I often found it more acurate in my experience that I am either “in it” or “through it” or “past it”.

I would only say “I’m over it” if I am witnessing an event while suspended in animation ( like watching an accident on tv ) or if I am in denial then I am “over it” as in supressing some element of my painful subjective reality (an intellectual understanding of an experience or event is not the same as allowing oneself to fully experiencing it emotionaly) - in my personal experience I don’t think I have ever gotten “over” anything. Everything touches me, whether acknowledged or not. I either go throught it aware or unaware, and now being more mature I let it go through me.

52

[quote]nolecat wrote:

I know this is a personal question, but what do some of you practice? I have been trying to read on Hindu philosophies as well as Buddhism etc…Again, there is my fear of seeking enlightenment without a guide!!! [/quote]

Then maybe for the next step of your spiritual development you need to practice being on your own.*

*rely on your own presence of mind

53

[quote]dollarbill44 wrote:

That was a nice poem. But to quote Nietzsche: “Poets muddy shallow waters to make them appear deep.”

True spirituality is not found in poems nor does the fact that you can write a poem make you an authority on spirituality or the falseness of religion.

Look, I couldn’t care less if you guys believe in a God or not, but for the sake of all that’s good, quit discounting religion as anti-spiritual, when honestly, you probably haven’t explored religion beyond a Philosophy 101 textbook and discussion.

DB[/quote]

Just as truthfulness and falsehood are found side by side, even intertwined in the lines of the same poem, do you not think dollarbill, that the truthfulness of religion is found in the true spirituality of the sincere individuals who chose to practice it within that structure?

54

[quote]Professor X wrote:

Ah, so whenever this is done, it is simply an attempt by the person to understand and not done as an insult. Got it. I will be sure to jot that down as, according to you, none of these expressions are intended to degrade what someone believes and are all wonderful little asides about how children can not be fooled by magicians and such. Cool. [/quote]

Let us try it another way.

Since you know what point we are tyring to make, what would you compare religion to, in order not to offend the person in question?

55

[quote]orion wrote:
Professor X wrote:

Ah, so whenever this is done, it is simply an attempt by the person to understand and not done as an insult. Got it. I will be sure to jot that down as, according to you, none of these expressions are intended to degrade what someone believes and are all wonderful little asides about how children can not be fooled by magicians and such. Cool.

Let us try it another way.

Since you know what point we are tyring to make, what would you compare religion to, in order not to offend the person in question?[/quote]

Why would I need to compare it to anything?

56

[quote]Professor X wrote:
orion wrote:
Professor X wrote:

Ah, so whenever this is done, it is simply an attempt by the person to understand and not done as an insult. Got it. I will be sure to jot that down as, according to you, none of these expressions are intended to degrade what someone believes and are all wonderful little asides about how children can not be fooled by magicians and such. Cool.

Let us try it another way.

Since you know what point we are tyring to make, what would you compare religion to, in order not to offend the person in question?

Why would I need to compare it to anything?[/quote]

Because metaphores, comparisons and abstract concepts come in handy when trying to describe a complex phenomenon?

Plus, simply comparing religions is an interesting intellectual exercise. It is awesome what people all around the world actually believe in.

57

[quote]orion wrote:
Professor X wrote:
orion wrote:
Professor X wrote:

Ah, so whenever this is done, it is simply an attempt by the person to understand and not done as an insult. Got it. I will be sure to jot that down as, according to you, none of these expressions are intended to degrade what someone believes and are all wonderful little asides about how children can not be fooled by magicians and such. Cool.

Let us try it another way.

Since you know what point we are tyring to make, what would you compare religion to, in order not to offend the person in question?

Why would I need to compare it to anything?

Because metaphores, comparisons and abstract concepts come in handy when trying to describe a complex phenomenon?

Plus, simply comparing religions is an interesting intellectual exercise. It is awesome what people all around the world actually believe in. [/quote]

Knock yourself out. Someone call me if this thread gets interesting.

58

[quote]Professor X wrote:
ChrisPowers wrote:
If you had a valid point to make, and you were simply calling upon that situation in order to describe a quality of my affection by drawing a comparison, it really wouldn’t bother me in the least. If you said, “you love your family no more than I do an animal that I swirve away from on the road,” then of course I’d be offended. Do you see the difference between the two, or do you not believe they are different?

That difference is exactly what is being referred when someone’s spiritual beliefs are related to a child’s fantasy about Santa Clause.[/quote]

You lost me. [insert insult to my intelligence here]

The difference I’m referring to is the difference between comparing an aspect of one thing to an aspect of another by using an analogy vs. comparing the two things directly. i.e. “people who believe in God are no different than children who believe in the tooth fairy” vs. “Belief in a God requires faith in something for which there is no evidence in much the same way that a child believes in the tooth fairy without ever having seen her.” If you are offended by the second comparison, can you explain to us why? Is it incorrect, and if so, in what way?

[quote]I thought that your previous post objecting to comparisons between religious beliefs and beliefs in childhood fantasy creatures was aimed at asserting that comparing the two is an insult since religious beliefs are legitimate and childhood beliefs are pure fantasy.

I think I have made it pretty clear what I was objecting to.[/quote]

I think you have only to yourself. The example you gave was inadequate, since it doesn’t parallel the tooth fairy analogy in any relevant way. To hear “tooth fairy” and immediately feel that you’re being condescended to is a very defensive and alarmist reaction. I think you might be a tad too sensitive when it comes to these matters, and it’s difficult to objectively discuss something when you’re that emotional about it. I don’t mean that as an insult, either.

[quote]It’s very different from saying, “believing in God is as stupid as believing in the tooth fairy.” It’s more like saying, “a belief in God exists in spite of an absence of evidence, and in that way it is similar to a belief in the tooth fairy” You know?

Ah, so whenever this is done, it is simply an attempt by the person to understand and not done as an insult. Got it. I will be sure to jot that down as, according to you, none of these expressions are intended to degrade what someone believes and are all wonderful little asides about how children can not be fooled by magicians and such. Cool.[/quote]

First of all, I don’t typically speak in absolutes like that. Don’t put words in my mouth to invent some weak straw man for you to take down.

I’m sure there are plenty of people out there who would be happy to insult others in that fashion. I think it’s pretty clear that that was not my intent, and your opinion that using the above analogy can only be done in a dismissive way was what I took issue with.

I don’t believe “it is simply an attempt by the person to understand,” and I never wrote that. What I did write is that it’s an attempt to convey to you their reason for feeling the way they do about the topic at hand. Not everyone in the world is out to get you.

I think it was relatively clear that the magician story was an unrelated aside. You were so offended by having your intellect compared to that of a child’s (I think I’m noticing a trend here), that I thought the story might be appropriate. I know I find it interesting…

59

[quote]Professor X wrote:
orion wrote:
Professor X wrote:
orion wrote:
Professor X wrote:

Ah, so whenever this is done, it is simply an attempt by the person to understand and not done as an insult. Got it. I will be sure to jot that down as, according to you, none of these expressions are intended to degrade what someone believes and are all wonderful little asides about how children can not be fooled by magicians and such. Cool.

Let us try it another way.

Since you know what point we are tyring to make, what would you compare religion to, in order not to offend the person in question?

Why would I need to compare it to anything?

Because metaphores, comparisons and abstract concepts come in handy when trying to describe a complex phenomenon?

Plus, simply comparing religions is an interesting intellectual exercise. It is awesome what people all around the world actually believe in.

Knock yourself out. Someone call me if this thread gets interesting.[/quote]

If you have troubles finding a way to compare religion with anything without offending people, you do realize that it might simply be impossible to do so?

Should that stop us from comparing it to other ideas?

Even if the study of ideas and their limits is a n?cessity if you choose to have ideas in the first place?

There are people, and you are one of them , that think people want to offend them, while it is them that are constantly offended and that is hardly the same thing.

I can repect a man without having to respect all of his ideas.

60

[quote]Alpha F wrote:
dollarbill44 wrote:

That was a nice poem. But to quote Nietzsche: “Poets muddy shallow waters to make them appear deep.”

True spirituality is not found in poems nor does the fact that you can write a poem make you an authority on spirituality or the falseness of religion.

Look, I couldn’t care less if you guys believe in a God or not, but for the sake of all that’s good, quit discounting religion as anti-spiritual, when honestly, you probably haven’t explored religion beyond a Philosophy 101 textbook and discussion.

DB

Just as truthfulness and falsehood are found side by side, even intertwined in the lines of the same poem, do you not think dollarbill, that the truthfulness of religion is found in the true spirituality of the sincere individuals who chose to practice it within that structure?

[/quote]

I don’t know. Maybe?

DB