Plane Crash & Spirituality

Off Topic
21

[quote]nuwayv wrote:
Professor X wrote:
nuwayv wrote:
Professor X wrote:
This could be a good discussion if people aren’t rude enough to discount religion or belittle the idea of spiritual development.

Using the ability to reason, people often come to the conclusion that religion is false. How does that make one rude?

Because it assumes that those who believe deeply in a spirit and that which can not be seen live without the ability to reason.

I would disagree. Everyone has the ability to reason and uses said reasoning daily. Not everyone, however, turns an objective, scrutinizing eye towards their religious beliefs.

Many, many millions of intelligent people are religious and/or spiritial. That doesn’t mean that the beliefs they hold regarding spirituality are true or worthy of respect.

[/quote]

It also doesn’t mean their beliefs are UNtrue. You asked why I said it was rude. You just answered yourself. If you hold no respect for the beliefs of others (as far as them simply having those beliefs), then to express your lack of respect at every given opportunity would be considered…what?

22

[quote]E-man wrote:
I’m by no means ready to die yet but to be honest the anticipation about what occurs after life and finding “the answers” is exciting to me so in a way I suppose I look forward to the inevitable.
[/quote]

I honestly don’t care what happens after death. I don’t believe it’s like Santa and Christmas… be a good girl and you’ll get a great reward some time in the future.

I intend to make my current situation into my heaven. I strive to find happiness and peace in my everyday life and live in the now, not in the someday.

I think heaven comes from that perfect productive union between body and soul when you are at peace with who and what you are and are no longer conflicted about your role in life. Am I there yet? No. But I’m certainly on my way.

My job has taught me that death is as much a fact of life as the sun rising every morning. There is no reason to be afraid of it. I wish more people would realize that artificially prolonging the life of a loved one who can no longer chose for themselves is a purely selfish exercise.

23

[quote]Professor X wrote:
nuwayv wrote:
Professor X wrote:
nuwayv wrote:
Professor X wrote:
This could be a good discussion if people aren’t rude enough to discount religion or belittle the idea of spiritual development.

Using the ability to reason, people often come to the conclusion that religion is false. How does that make one rude?

Because it assumes that those who believe deeply in a spirit and that which can not be seen live without the ability to reason.

I would disagree. Everyone has the ability to reason and uses said reasoning daily. Not everyone, however, turns an objective, scrutinizing eye towards their religious beliefs.

Many, many millions of intelligent people are religious and/or spiritial. That doesn’t mean that the beliefs they hold regarding spirituality are true or worthy of respect.

It also doesn’t mean their beliefs are UNtrue. You asked why I said it was rude. You just answered yourself. If you hold no respect for the beliefs of others (as far as them simply having those beliefs), then to express your lack of respect at every given opportunity would be considered…what?
[/quote]

You are saying things that I did not say. One can respect that someone believes something - even something that one disagrees with. Disagreement does not automatically equal disrespect. Also, who is “expressing lack of respect at every given oppertunity?” That seems to pigeonholing all nonbelievers and/or believers of other religions as being adversarial. Raising a dissenting opinion,now and again, is a good thing for everyone.

Also, the very nature and teachings of all the varied belief systems that exist (structured and unstructured) cancel out the other existing belief systems. That is to say - they all can’t be true.

24

[quote]sic wrote:
My job has taught me that death is as much a fact of life as the sun rising every morning. There is no reason to be afraid of it. I wish more people would realize that artificially prolonging the life of a loved one who can no longer chose for themselves is a purely selfish exercise.[/quote]

From a purely objective standpoint I agree. Subjectively, and personally, it’s one of the hardest things to confront but I still agree. It’s just at that point in time things that are going on seem an impossibility. Yes, it is selfish but the things that need to be done sometimes take more strength than some people have.I have been there, it took more strength than I ever thought I had and to this day there is a hollowness and numbness that refuses to go away.

25

[quote]dre wrote:
Professor X wrote:
This could be a good discussion if people aren’t rude enough to discount religion or belittle the idea of spiritual development.

I completely agree. That is one thing I have never understood. Why people who aren’t spiritual or religious feel the need to look down upon people who are. What’s the difference if someone believes in a higher power? Why look down upon someone for wanting to believe in life after death?

Is it because they feel like they are being looked down upon by spiritual people for not believing?[/quote]

Not really,

if I tell you that I think you believe in fairy tales you will be understandably pissed.

You might also think that I look down on you, feel superior, hate your specific religion, etc…

I on the other hand, not having invested that much emotional energy in the religion of your choice have no strong emotions that go with the fairy tale comment.

I sometimes think that some religious people are not able to see how little we really care for their religious beliefs as long as they don`t get too annoying.

26

[quote]nuwayv wrote:
Professor X wrote:
nuwayv wrote:
Professor X wrote:
nuwayv wrote:
Professor X wrote:
This could be a good discussion if people aren’t rude enough to discount religion or belittle the idea of spiritual development.

Using the ability to reason, people often come to the conclusion that religion is false. How does that make one rude?

Because it assumes that those who believe deeply in a spirit and that which can not be seen live without the ability to reason.

I would disagree. Everyone has the ability to reason and uses said reasoning daily. Not everyone, however, turns an objective, scrutinizing eye towards their religious beliefs.

Many, many millions of intelligent people are religious and/or spiritial. That doesn’t mean that the beliefs they hold regarding spirituality are true or worthy of respect.

It also doesn’t mean their beliefs are UNtrue. You asked why I said it was rude. You just answered yourself. If you hold no respect for the beliefs of others (as far as them simply having those beliefs), then to express your lack of respect at every given opportunity would be considered…what?

You are saying things that I did not say. One can respect that someone believes something - even something that one disagrees with. Disagreement does not automatically equal disrespect. Also, who is “expressing lack of respect at every given oppertunity?” That seems to pigeonholing all nonbelievers and/or believers of other religions as being adversarial. Raising a dissenting opinion,now and again, is a good thing for everyone.

Also, the very nature and teachings of all the varied belief systems that exist (structured and unstructured) cancel out the other existing belief systems. That is to say - they all can’t be true.[/quote]

Who would object to simple disagreement? When “disagreement” becomes name calling, accusing anyone who believes in a higher power of lacking logic, or the relation of religious beliefs to the tooth fairy, one crosses the line to ‘disrespect’. The third post in this thread did just that right after mine. Very rarely is there simple disagreement and open debate. For the most part, it seems to be eating away at some to voice how stupid or naive they feel those people are. If your argument is that this does not occur often, you are living a fantasy. So, tell me, what are you arguing?

Your original statement was this:

[quote]Using the ability to reason, people often come to the conclusion that religion is false. How does that make one rude?
[/quote]

Using the ability to reason, people often come to the conclusion…

Could you explain to me why you worded it this way? It could imply that those who do not come to the conclusion that religion is false fail to use the ability to reason, could it not? If that is implied, how is this not a stab at those who believe?

Do you believe that ‘using the ability to reason’ people often realize that order exists greatly within a system of randomized chaos?

27

[quote]Professor X wrote:
nuwayv wrote:
Professor X wrote:
nuwayv wrote:
Professor X wrote:
nuwayv wrote:
Professor X wrote:
This could be a good discussion if people aren’t rude enough to discount religion or belittle the idea of spiritual development.

Using the ability to reason, people often come to the conclusion that religion is false. How does that make one rude?

Because it assumes that those who believe deeply in a spirit and that which can not be seen live without the ability to reason.

I would disagree. Everyone has the ability to reason and uses said reasoning daily. Not everyone, however, turns an objective, scrutinizing eye towards their religious beliefs.

Many, many millions of intelligent people are religious and/or spiritial. That doesn’t mean that the beliefs they hold regarding spirituality are true or worthy of respect.

It also doesn’t mean their beliefs are UNtrue. You asked why I said it was rude. You just answered yourself. If you hold no respect for the beliefs of others (as far as them simply having those beliefs), then to express your lack of respect at every given opportunity would be considered…what?

You are saying things that I did not say. One can respect that someone believes something - even something that one disagrees with. Disagreement does not automatically equal disrespect. Also, who is “expressing lack of respect at every given oppertunity?” That seems to pigeonholing all nonbelievers and/or believers of other religions as being adversarial. Raising a dissenting opinion,now and again, is a good thing for everyone.

Also, the very nature and teachings of all the varied belief systems that exist (structured and unstructured) cancel out the other existing belief systems. That is to say - they all can’t be true.

Who would object to simple disagreement? When “disagreement” becomes name calling, accusing anyone who believes in a higher power of lacking logic, or the relation of religious beliefs to the tooth fairy, one crosses the line to ‘disrespect’. The third post in this thread did just that right after mine. Very rarely is there simple disagreement and open debate. For the most part, it seems to be eating away at some to voice how stupid or naive they feel those people are. If your argument is that this does not occur often, you are living a fantasy. So, tell me, what are you arguing?

Your original statement was this:
Using the ability to reason, people often come to the conclusion that religion is false. How does that make one rude?

Using the ability to reason, people often come to the conclusion…

Could you explain to me why you worded it this way? It could imply that those who do not come to the conclusion that religion is false fail to use the ability to reason, could it not? If that is implied, how is this not a stab at those who believe?

Do you believe that ‘using the ability to reason’ people often realize that order exists greatly within a system of randomized chaos?[/quote]

Your original post contained “name calling” by saying that people that discounted religion are rude. Sounds to me that if people don’t agree with YOU, then they are guilty of being inconsiderate to you. Sorry,I disagree. Not everyone that discounts religion is rude. Simple as that. Get over it.

People come to the conclusion about all sorts of things using reason. Some right, some wrong. Some individuals, after much searching and inquest either drop religion or become more faithfull. I didn’t pronounce judgement either way, nor did I intentially imply that those who maintained a religious faith were somehow intellectually inferiour. You are apparently reading much into my posts.

In parting (yes, this is my last post on this - tedium is setting in) not all religious beliefs are worthy of respect. If you think they are then you are indeed a fool. Think of extremists flying planes into buildings. What about funamentalists who vie to push science from the class rooms and usher their own doctrine in? What about sects who shut members off from their families and control virtually every aspect of the members lives? The list goes on. Are these types of religious faiths worthy of respect. The answer, in my opinion, is no, no, and no.

I’m not trying to be rude in my posts nor am I saying that all religious people are stupid etc. I simply found it amusing that someone would preemptively name call if they dared to post an alternate viewpoint.

28

[quote]nuwayv wrote:
Your original post contained “name calling” by saying that people that discounted religion are rude. Sounds to me that if people don’t agree with YOU, then they are guilty of being inconsiderate to you. Sorry,I disagree. Not everyone that discounts religion is rude. Simple as that. Get over it.[/quote]

You are struggling and it shows. This was my first post:

That part about BELITTLING is exactly what you skipped right over just so you could try to make a point. Why?

Once again, that was pretty lame. No one was called any names in that post and your attempt to make it seem that way caused me to waste time further by pointing that out.

29

[quote]Professor X wrote:
When “disagreement” becomes … the relation of religious beliefs to the tooth fairy, one crosses the line to ‘disrespect’.[/quote]

I’m curious why comparing two faith-based beliefs should be interpreted as disrespectful. A child believes in the tooth fairy without any evidence outside of what others tell him, and an adult believes in a deity/ies without any evidence outside of what he is taught by others. I don’t see why pointing out that similarity is taken as an attack by you.

Honestly, I have always had difficulty seeing the difference between the two. The only real difference I can see is that the existence of the tooth fairy is something that is taught with the knowledge that it isn’t real, while the existence of a deity is taught with the belief that it is. But in both cases, a lack of evidence is admitted. In fact, in religious matters, a lack of evidence is actually a requirement for true faith.

That’s why I never get these arguments. Why do some religious folks insist on couching their beliefs in scientific terms? Wouldn’t providing evidence for the existence of God eliminate faith? And what is religion without the need for faith? Science, no?

30

[quote]ChrisPowers wrote:
Professor X wrote:
When “disagreement” becomes … the relation of religious beliefs to the tooth fairy, one crosses the line to ‘disrespect’.

I’m curious why comparing two faith-based beliefs should be interpreted as disrespectful. A child believes in the tooth fairy without any evidence outside of what others tell him, and an adult believes in a deity/ies without any evidence outside of what he is taught by others. I don’t see why pointing out that similarity is taken as an attack by you.[/quote]

Let me ask you, if I compared your love for your wife, daughter, or husband (as the case may be) to the affection I show a stray dog when attempting to not run it over, would you not think I was unable to truly see the significance of what you consider “love”? I’m not a child.

To relate anything about the way I think to the simplicity of children would be considered an insult to most people. The fact that you pretend this isn’t the case is what suprises me.

[quote]
That’s why I never get these arguments. Why do some religious folks insist on couching their beliefs in scientific terms? Wouldn’t providing evidence for the existence of God eliminate faith? And what is religion without the need for faith? Science, no?[/quote]

Who has said there isn’t a difference between pure faith and science? I sure didn’t. I haven’t seen anyone write that in this thread either.

31

I feel that this thread requires a quote from the great Bill Hicks:

“While I appreciate your quaint traditions, superstitions, and, you know. I on the other hand am an evolved being who deals solely with the source of light which exists in all of us, in our own minds, no middle man required. But anyway, I appreciate your little games and shit, you putting on the tie and going to church, a de da de da. But you know there’s a LIVING GOD WHO WILL TALK DIRECTLY FUCKING TO YOU.”

  • POC
32

[quote]nolecat wrote:

I 've been doing some thinking since then. Is there such a thing as being ready to die? [/quote]

Possibly, IMO it depends on the person. I accept that I will die eventually. It is a given so there is no fighting it. Whether I am “ready” to die would depend on the goals i have achieved and experiences gone through versus the goals and experiences I still would like to create.

[quote]
Is there some type of spiritual enlightenment that can prepare you for such a sudden departure? I know I’m not prepared. What are your thoughts?[/quote]

If there is actually time to realize you are in a situation where you could die many emotions would be present in you. Some may be strong enough, spiritually, mentally to accept their fate, others not.

For those on that flight, it appears they wouldn’t have had time to even prepare in the least bit.

I think my last thoughts in that instant wouldn’t be of me dying but of how those who are close to me would be after I am gone and that I hope they would be okay as could be. Because there is chance we could go at anytime, under many circumstances quick or otherwise, another question is what spiritual enlightenment could prepare your for the departure at any time?

For some, religion is what they need, it’s what they ‘believe’ in, what they have turned to and it works for them. Others choose another path.

I may not agree with certain religions or aspects of them but would not take away from something that works for some people.

33

I think that spirituality is not found in self-delusion (I am going to live forever as a spirit with Jesus/Buddha/Allah/FSM and eternal twinkies and beer), because this is avoidance of reality, not confronting it with strength and wisdom.

Real spirituality is defined for me as your degree of appreciation of metaphor. It’s your ability to appreciate a poem or a sunset, or to accept the fact that bad things happen to good people and it’s not necessarily anybody’s fault.

A spiritual person will find a way to see things in a positive or constructive light where so many unenlightened folks will despair. This ability is, as far as I have known it so far, just something you realize on your own – it’s not like anybody can teach you how to let go of the negative, it’s just something you do yourself.

Here’s a poem I wrote a long time ago, called “Bottles”:

The soul is a container which holds your measure of Faith,
Your life is like a journey to float across the sea.
So many ways to try to cross that great expanse of danger,
How few of us will ever see that distant shore!

Hold this picture in your mind: you know the task before you.
A bottle, your soul, must cross over leagues of endless water
Brave storms, waves, and somehow find its way to stay afloat
For to sink is to fail, and there are so many ways to sink!

Some bottles go it alone, bobbing up and down with each passing wave,
There is a danger, here, because some waves are large, and crash down on top of the bottle.

Even though it’s afloat, it will take a little bit of each wave that goes too high,
It will start to fill, and it will become easier to fill each time, as it slowly sinks beneath each passing crest.
Eventually, it will hold no more, and will sink forever beneath its weight of tragedy.

Some bottles look for guidance, realizing the danger
In exchange for a boat ride across the sea, and the promise of safety
They consent to fill themselves with a vile poison, and package themselves in crates.

They have not seen the boat, but only heard the lies.

That boat is not meant to reach the distant shore,
It is meant to sink in the water, hiding for all time its load of poison from any prying eyes.

To stay afloat requires a bottle to be empty, so render yourself empty.
Pour out your pain and your poison. Empty yourself to start your journey.
Then, turn yourself over. Trap that emptiness within your bottle.
You will seem strange to the others –
And the poison-carriers will cry: “That is not what you are for! No bottle can carry the poison if it is upside-down!”
But you have seen your task. You are not for carrying fear and pain.
You are also not to fill yourself with the sorrows of the waves.
Although you swim in the troubles of the sea that surrounds you,
Do not drink of them – do not bear the world’s cares within you.
You will stay afloat through the most terrible of storms,
No matter how fierce or how far the rages of the ocean drive you underwater,
If you remain empty, you will always eventually rise once more to the surface.

It does not matter how long it takes,
You will find the distant shore.
When you do, you can stop at that beach, and lie in the sun
Or, you can turn back –

The Sea of Life has so many ups and downs,
So many times you were pushed down beneath the surface,
You might have even touched the ocean’s bottom once or twice.
But always did you rise again…
That emptiness like a perfect reminder of what you are meant to bear:

Nothing.

34

[quote]nolecat wrote:
Is there such a thing as being ready to die? Is there some type of spiritual enlightenment that can prepare you for such a sudden departure? I know I’m not prepared. What are your thoughts? Is accepting religion enough? Or is there more?

[/quote]

Prof, I enjoyed reading your well presented thoughts.

To the O/P’s comments, I believe there IS such a thing as being ready to die (I’m not).

Yes, I believe there is a “type of spiritual enlightenment” that prepares you for sudden departure.

Accepting ‘religion’ is not enough, but you just have accept 1 thing.

There is more. Much more.

35

I’m ready for everything.

Good or bad.

Maybe that’s what spirituality is all about.

36

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:

I think that spirituality is not found in self-delusion

A spiritual person will find a way to see things in a positive or constructive light
[/quote]

Or maybe, a spiritual person will simply see things in the ligh - and call it for what it is : good or bad. When you put the light on the reality of the enlightened object can be either a positive or a negative. Light is light. The clarity must be in your mind not on the objective or subjective reality. Objective reality contains both light and darkness and so does subjective reality.

Spirituality could simply mean putting the light of human consciousness on = clarity of mind = clear perception of reality, inner and outer, whether that is “good or bad/light or dark”

Doesn’t finding a way to interpret a negative event/feeling under the projection of a positive “light” also constitute a form of self-delusion?

37

[quote]Alpha F wrote:
Doesn’t finding a way to interpret a negative event/feeling under the projection of a positive “light” also constitute a form of self-delusion?
[/quote]

Nice. I like how you’re taking this.

However, there is the question about whether or not it does any good to despair. Seriously now, is there any constructive or helpful results to yourself or anyone else from despairing?

I would say that despair is the opposite of what made us – as a species – great. That positive frame of mind I mentioned is not saying “everything is okay” to yourself over and over again despite the evidence around you, it is more like saying “shit happens, I’m over it, what can we do about it?”

Make sense?

38

[quote]cadav wrote:
nolecat wrote:
I 've been doing some thinking since then. Is there such a thing as being ready to die? Is there some type of spiritual enlightenment that can prepare you for such a sudden departure? I know I’m not prepared. What are your thoughts? Is accepting religion enough? Or is there more?

I’m ready.
I have a nice full and complete life. But I’m ready to die.

Spirituality? may be… but it is not what I believe that make me ready. But how i live.

In 2003 I was really near death… “she” touch me but I’m to ugly so “she” scared and left me inside the car :slight_smile:

After a summer of blindness I return to life… work, friends and girls…

After that I think death is after the corner… watching and waiting… and it is a think we can’t controll… so why be afraid?

[/quote]

Wow, you’ve been thru some serious stuff. Seems like your at total ease with what the future will bring some day. That feeling must be a pleasant one & must be nice. Cool stuff!

39

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
it is more like saying “shit happens, I’m over it, what can we do about it?”

Make sense?[/quote]

Even making that statement is a form of despair, all be it a short one. To avoid that reaction altogether would mean to avoid even needing to say that “shit happens” and that you are NOW over it. It is a natural human reaction to reflect on things that occur and show emotion for it. Does that mean the world ends? No, but it does mean that for emotional and mental health, there has to be some time of “mourning”…whether it lasts seconds, minutes, or years.

You related a positive frame of mind (I assume of the spiritual person) to someone saying “everything is ok” despite everything falling apart around them currently. That isn’t a positive frame of mind. That is insanity. A positive frame of mind realizes the problem and reflects on hope of resolving that problem with a solution and hope that things will be better soon enough.

40

[quote]Professor X wrote:
You related a positive frame of mind (I assume of the spiritual person) to someone saying “everything is ok” despite everything falling apart around them currently. That isn’t a positive frame of mind. That is insanity. A positive frame of mind realizes the problem and reflects on hope of resolving that problem with a solution and hope that things will be better soon enough.[/quote]ain

Way to agree with me without realizing it, prof.

Go back and read my post again. The part where I wrote that it’s NOT saying “everything is okay” despite the evidence, blah blah blah…

It’s the little words that trip us up sometimes… :slight_smile: