Plane Crash & Spirituality

Off Topic
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[quote]dollarbill44 wrote:

Just as truthfulness and falsehood are found side by side, even intertwined in the lines of the same poem, do you not think dollarbill, that the truthfulness of religion is found in the true spirituality of the sincere individuals who chose to practice it within that structure?

I don’t know. Maybe?

DB[/quote]

Another insight into this is, instead of trying to stablish the truth of any organization/structure why not evaluate it in terms of usefulness?

The purposefulness of religion x the truthfulness of religion.

Religion could be seen as a means to an end, that end being spirituality.

Just as money is a means to an end, the fact that some people misuse or abuse or don’t use money, does it make it “deceit” or “evil”?

Just a thought.

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[quote]dollarbill44 wrote:
Why is believing in a god self-delusional, which means having a persistent belief in something despite indisputable evidence to the contrary? I find your statement to be utterly absurd, unless of course you can prove without a doubt that no god exists. [/quote]

If you want to believe that some supernatural invisible human-looking dude has absolute control over everything, ultimate knowledge of everything, etc., then knock yourself out.

I, however, have not a shred of proof to substantiate this ancient claim beyond what people have imagined. We can imagine that there are flying pigs and twelve foot tall hamsters – hell, we can imagine all kinds of shit that isn’t real. That’s part of what makes our species so damn cool.

I just feel that believing in real, live, twelve foot tall hamsters – and adjusting my behavior to reflect such – is counterproductive. Don’t get me wrong now, it’s a fun diversion to pretend stuff, but isn’t it important to realize what is fantasy and what is reality? I don’t know, maybe it’s not all that big a deal to some people, and that’s fine by me as long as it’s not fucking anything up too bad.

He also said “God is dead.” :slight_smile:

My point is that spirituality can be found in reflecting on a poem, just as an example. There’s a million ways to get in touch with metaphor.

[quote]Look, I couldn’t care less if you guys believe in a God or not, but for the sake of all that’s good, quit discounting religion as anti-spiritual, when honestly, you probably haven’t explored religion beyond a Philosophy 101 textbook and discussion.

DB[/quote]

Religion can be spiritual as soon as you guys stop taking it as literal truth, and see it as another human construction just like any other artistic way of expressing the human condition.

How is God NOT a metaphor for a father figure we look up to for guidance through the messiness of our lives, and the hope of a brighter tomorrow?

I think that you guys just stumble a little bit when you hold on to the idea that there’s no other way to find that brighter tomorrow than through a religious experience. I’m sorry, there are many many ways to achieve hope – I, and many folks like me, are living proof. :slight_smile:

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[quote]lothario1132 wrote:

I think that you guys just stumble a little bit when you hold on to the idea that there’s no other way to find that brighter tomorrow than through a religious experience. I’m sorry, there are many many ways to achieve hope – I, and many folks like me, are living proof. :)[/quote]

First of all, what gives you the impression that I am one of “them”, which I assume must be a pretty amorphous grouping of religious fanatics. I can assure you that I am not in that group. I don’t hold on to the notion that one can’t live a happy life without religion. Although, the man who eats bottom round every night can be happy until he gets a taste of filet mignon.

I still believe in an afterlife and in order to reach that, one must believe in God. I don’t believe that one has to be Catholic/Baptist/Jewish/Muslim or whatever to attain this, rather one has to live a virtuous life and accept a God (which btw is the same one in all of those religions I listed).

Still, you can’t be considered self-delusional unless there is incontrovertible proof of the non-existence of a god. There is the same lack of proof that a higher power doesn’t exist as there is that one does exist. If I’m self-delusional, than wouldn’t you be also? But, to lump you into a broad atheist crowd, you believe that people of religion are not “enlightened” as you are.

We’re not likely to agree on this subject, so I won’t waste anymore time on it, but I just wanted to reiterate that believing in a religion is not grounds for being labeled delusional just because you cannot fathom that there is a higher power.

Oh, and I knew the irony of using Nietzsche to make a point, but it was a good way to be a smart-ass about poetry. The fact that I wrote a Haiku in 5th grade about a spring flower doesn’t make me more spiritual than someone who has never written a poem.

DB

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[quote]dollarbill44 wrote:
lothario1132 wrote:

I think that you guys just stumble a little bit when you hold on to the idea that there’s no other way to find that brighter tomorrow than through a religious experience. I’m sorry, there are many many ways to achieve hope – I, and many folks like me, are living proof. :slight_smile:

First of all, what gives you the impression that I am one of “them”, which I assume must be a pretty amorphous grouping of religious fanatics. I can assure you that I am not in that group. I don’t hold on to the notion that one can’t live a happy life without religion. Although, the man who eats bottom round every night can be happy until he gets a taste of filet mignon.

I still believe in an afterlife and in order to reach that, one must believe in God. I don’t believe that one has to be Catholic/Baptist/Jewish/Muslim or whatever to attain this, rather one has to live a virtuous life and accept a God (which btw is the same one in all of those religions I listed).

Still, you can’t be considered self-delusional unless there is incontrovertible proof of the non-existence of a god. There is the same lack of proof that a higher power doesn’t exist as there is that one does exist. If I’m self-delusional, than wouldn’t you be also? But, to lump you into a broad atheist crowd, you believe that people of religion are not “enlightened” as you are.

We’re not likely to agree on this subject, so I won’t waste anymore time on it, but I just wanted to reiterate that believing in a religion is not grounds for being labeled delusional just because you cannot fathom that there is a higher power.

Oh, and I knew the irony of using Nietzsche to make a point, but it was a good way to be a smart-ass about poetry. The fact that I wrote a Haiku in 5th grade about a spring flower doesn’t make me more spiritual than someone who has never written a poem.

DB[/quote]

Good post.

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[quote]dollarbill44 wrote:
Still, you can’t be considered self-delusional unless there is incontrovertible proof of the non-existence of a god. [/quote]
Hmmm… I have patients come into the ER here screaming about invisible demons assaulting them. Since we can’t disprove this, then we should assume that they aren’t delusional? I don’t know, man.

I’m sorry, DB, you are dead wrong here. There is ALL KINDS of evidence to support the idea that there ISN’T an all-powerful, all-knowing, and Ultimately beneficial higher power which watches over us and answers our prayers. Open your eyes.

The score is like twenty trillionty to zero right now in favor of atheism, but it’s more pleasant to turn a blind eye to the ills of the world and say that there is hope in some untouchable and incorruptible other world beyond this one than it is to deal with the shit we have going on right here on earth.

Okay, let’s change the words to “wishful thinking” instead of “delusional”. It’s not like y’all are running around all crazy and shit. Well… most of y’all, anyway.

[quote]Oh, and I knew the irony of using Nietzsche to make a point, but it was a good way to be a smart-ass about poetry. The fact that I wrote a Haiku in 5th grade about a spring flower doesn’t make me more spiritual than someone who has never written a poem.

DB[/quote]

No I suppose it doesn’t. But lately, have you done anything creative, or visited a museum, taken in a good ballgame, stopped to check out the colors of a sunrise over the ocean, blah, balah, blah? If you have, then I would say that you’ve had much more opportunity to get in touch with your spirituality than somebody who’s locked themselves in a cell for twenty years.

But what do I know? I’m too busy muddying these shallow waters over here. If I was you, I would just ignore me.

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[quote]dollarbill44 wrote:

I still believe in an afterlife and in order to reach that, one must believe in God. I don’t believe that one has to be Catholic/Baptist/Jewish/Muslim or whatever to attain this, rather one has to live a virtuous life and accept a God (which btw is the same one in all of those religions I listed).[/quote]

But what are you basing this on? It seems as though you’re just pulling it out of thin air because it’s what you want to believe is true. There’s nothing wrong with that and you’re free to do it, but you’re excluding those who are polytheistic because they happened to be born into a culture where that was the prevailing wisdom. So they don’t get to go to the afterlife because of an accident of birth? That’s really a cruel, self-centered position to have, is it not?

But proof that something doesn’t exist is almost impossible to produce. In fact, that’s what the purpose of the tooth fairy analogy is. To be less offensive to Professor X, you can use the same analogy with any other religious deity or deities. But doing so changes the focus from comparing two things for which there is no proof of existence to comparing two religious beliefs: hence the prevalance of the tooth fairy analogy.

I’m of the opinion that people feign offense at the tooth fairy analogy because it’s so simple and so damning, and to pull the anti-religionism card makes it go away quickly without having to debate it honestly. I can see no other reason for being so sensitive.

But here’s your opportunity to debate it. Is it possible to disprove the existence of the tooth fairy? If not, should we then to accept that it does exist?

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[quote]nolecat wrote:
Just wanted to express my condolences to the passengers who died in the plane crash Sunday. I actually live right in the take off/landing path of the Bluegrass Airport. It really is a sobering incident since I(and I’m sure a lot of you) fly out on those Delta Comair flights all the time…especially to Atlanta. That easily could have been me.

I 've been doing some thinking since then. Is there such a thing as being ready to die? Is there some type of spiritual enlightenment that can prepare you for such a sudden departure? I know I’m not prepared. What are your thoughts? Is accepting religion enough? Or is there more?

[/quote]

Talk about being stressed. My wife and daughter were flying home from California that same morning.

That was the second time there was one single plane crash on the same day they were flying from visiting relatives.

I only knew it wasn’t her plane because I just got off the phone with her a few minutes before she boarded the plane.

I was still worried sick the whole 11 1/2 hours it took them to get home (including almost 4 hours of lay overs).

It’s terrible to have to think about how my life would be without either of them in it.

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[quote]nuwayv wrote:
Your original post contained “name calling” by saying that people that discounted religion are rude.
[/quote]
Names are nouns. “Rude” is an adjective.

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[quote]orion wrote:
I can repect a man without having to respect all of his ideas.
[/quote]

You are right about this. And wrong about just about everything else.

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[quote]NealRaymond2 wrote:
orion wrote:
I can repect a man without having to respect all of his ideas.

You are right about this. And wrong about just about everything else.

[/quote]

Then go ahead and show me where I went wrong, would you?

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[quote]Sorry for the thread hijack, but I thought that, unless you’re a small child or maybe elderly, American scorpion stings aren’t usually life-threatening… they just really, really hurt.

I thought it was only the African scorpions that you really gotta look out for. Another saying I’ve heard is, “the smaller the claws, the worse the sting.”

Sorry, I’d just genuinely interested, I used to be obsessed with scorpions as a kid.

Later,
Rob

teamstaley wrote:
Saturday night I am sitting on my couch going through the newspaper and my barefeet are on the ground.something in me says “look down” and as I look down I see a scorpion about to crawl onto my foot, not even an inch from it. If you live in Az you hear the death horror stories of scorpion stings.

Even if you spray you are never really safe from them. I have lived through cancer and the thought of a sting (or my children getting stung) for some reason scares me more. It was a sobering rest of the night and really made me think more of my own mortality.

It made me think of “close calls” in my life and what is it inside of us that gives us that intuition. There are small blessings around at all times. I guess it’s just my guardian angel working overtime. -Jules [/quote]

Rob-
True, I would probably more than likely die from the heart attack I would get after being stung-as I stated it is a fear I have. Scares me very much.Real to me all the same. It could have been my own little girl sitting there as she often does and that could have been a real life live or die situation.

What I was getting at I guess is that it often takes moments like that for most of us to even wonder about things.Like the plane crash.Like a deadly sting. Whatever. I am sure I will get blasted here by those that say they always think about their “faith” and all. Somtimes I am just so busy that it slips by. That day it just seemed more apparent to me is all.

And again, I was getting at the intuition one suddenly 'gets" when things are about to happen. Some would say luck,others would say a bigger force at hand. -Jules

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[quote]teamstaley wrote:

And again, I was getting at the intuition one suddenly 'gets" when things are about to happen. Some would say luck,others would say a bigger force at hand. -Jules
[/quote]

Evolution, that gave you a set of working and useful instincts?

j/k…

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[quote]NealRaymond2 wrote:
nuwayv wrote:
Your original post contained “name calling” by saying that people that discounted religion are rude.

Names are nouns. “Rude” is an adjective.

[/quote]

You are correct. My words, in this case, could have been better chosen. The point that I was trying to make in my posts is that I think it is unfair to label someone as rude simply because they discount religion. That’s my opinion. Professor X has his.

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[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
dollarbill44 wrote:

Because you don’t believe in demons doesn’t mean they don’t exist.

[quote]There is the same lack of proof that a higher power doesn’t exist as there is that one does exist.
I’m sorry, DB, you are dead wrong here. There is ALL KINDS of evidence to support the idea that there ISN’T an all-powerful, all-knowing, and Ultimately beneficial higher power which watches over us and answers our prayers. Open your eyes. [/quote]

Give me some evidence supporting the idea that such a God does not exist other than anecdotal instances where human prayers are unanswered or bad things happen. Because I or anyone for that matter asks for something in prayer and it doesn’t come true does not mean that there isn’t a higher power.

Did you ever stop to think that what’s best for me may not be what I think is best for me? Perhaps I am being strengthened by being denied that which I ask for?

there’s really no way to counter an absurdity like this. There really isn’t. All I can say is my scorecard looks a lot different than yours.

[quote]
Okay, let’s change the words to “wishful thinking” instead of “delusional”. [/quote]

What you call “wishful thinking” in this case is what I call faith. The difference being, however, that faith has a conviction behind it rather than just a fleeting whimsy.

I thank God for my blessings whenever I see beauty in nature. As for museums, creativity, etc. Unless they are tied to a religious belief,to me, those aren’t spiritual pursuits, but secular in nature. For example, viewing a Carravaggio depiction of an event in Christ’s life can be very spiritual, however staring at an Andy Warhol print isn’t.

I can’t ignore you, I love you.:slight_smile: Not in the Biblical sense (nttawwt - a belief which separates me from religious fanatics is that I truly feel ttnwwt).

DB

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[quote]dollarbill44 wrote:
lothario1132 wrote:

If I was you, I would just ignore me.

I can’t ignore you, I love you.:slight_smile: Not in the Biblical sense (nttawwt - a belief which separates me from religious fanatics is that I truly feel ttnwwt).

DB[/quote]

Now THAT was a good post!

Dollarbill truly showing he is a spiritual man.

nttawwt, of course.

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[quote]ChrisPowers wrote:
dollarbill44 wrote:

But what are you basing this on? It seems as though you’re just pulling it out of thin air because it’s what you want to believe is true. There’s nothing wrong with that and you’re free to do it, but you’re excluding those who are polytheistic because they happened to be born into a culture where that was the prevailing wisdom. So they don’t get to go to the afterlife because of an accident of birth? That’s really a cruel, self-centered position to have, is it not?

But proof that something doesn’t exist is almost impossible to produce. In fact, that’s what the purpose of the tooth fairy analogy is. To be less offensive to Professor X, you can use the same analogy with any other religious deity or deities. But doing so changes the focus from comparing two things for which there is no proof of existence to comparing two religious beliefs: hence the prevalance of the tooth fairy analogy.

I’m of the opinion that people feign offense at the tooth fairy analogy because it’s so simple and so damning, and to pull the anti-religionism card makes it go away quickly without having to debate it honestly. I can see no other reason for being so sensitive.

But here’s your opportunity to debate it. Is it possible to disprove the existence of the tooth fairy? If not, should we then to accept that it does exist?[/quote]

People take offense at the tooth fairy comparison not only becuase or your comparing one’s perception of life and the afterlife to childlike fantasies but also because the belief in God or a higher power is (can be) based on philosophical deduction.

Is it possible to disprove the toothfairy? No? But, this is a straw man argument. Atheists often like to create their own finite definition of God as opposed to the “infinite” perception of God that religious people often share. I believe God to be transcendent, a part of every human being whose existence we can only truly grasp after our current life’s over.

Is religion wishful thinking? Maybe it’s wishful thinking to think that God does not exist in order to disregard being accountable for ones actions? Not saying that it is but that is a common belittling type of argument that atheists often resort to to make themselves feel intellectually superior.

There is no natural evidence of God. However, God’s existence is supernatural and can therefore not be “proven” by scientific measures. However, i think there are traces of something transcendent that can be witnessed in nature. Not to say that I am an ID proponent, it’s not good science.

A scientific phenomenon shouldn’t not be contributed to some supernatural entity. I think however that ID, could be viewed as some some sort of “scientific” philosophy. By philosophical and logical deduction I have come to believe that there is a God not simply because of parental indoctrination. I believe the big bang to be the first cause, that the universe is fine tuned, that the origin of life did not occur through abiogenesis, etc.

Finally, to echo what Professor X said it’s sad that many atheists continually come across as bigots when debating religion. Scientifically you cannot prove the existence of love, does that mean it does not exist. However, logically and philosophically we can… and that’s it for now

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I dont think accepting religion is enough. I’m not an expert on other religions besides my own. But I can say for sure that I am comfortable with death. All of my goals that I work towards are in accordance with what I believe in. Therefore if I die, even if I haven’t accomplished what I intended to in this life, I will obtain comfort in the second.

And I’m comfortable with that, because I have seen my beliefs confirmed over and over again in every single circumstance of everyday life, science and history.

Death is a necessary part of life. To God we belong, and to Him is our return.

Our responsiblity, in my belief is to make sure we return in the most noble and well-deserving way possible. Make the most of your time here in this world, do good, but If you can’t accomplish what you set out to do, don’t despair because all you did will still serve you in the next life which is infinitely better than this one.

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[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
dollarbill44 wrote:

Religion can be spiritual as soon as you guys stop taking it as literal truth, and see it as another human construction just like any other artistic way of expressing the human condition.

[/quote]

I have nothing to add to this thread. I’d simply like to thank lothario for the above paragraph, and the touching poem.

It seems that I’ve just had slight spiritual moment with these words. This whole debate makes much more sense to me now.

Thank you

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[quote]dollarbill44 wrote:

I still believe in an afterlife and in order to reach that, one must believe in God. I don’t believe that one has to be Catholic/Baptist/Jewish/Muslim or whatever to attain this, rather one has to live a virtuous life and accept a God (which btw is the same one in all of those religions I listed).

DB[/quote]

Excellent Post. I completely agree with you.

I’d just like to point out a fact that is lost to most ignorant muslims today. Which is basically that the basic criterion outlined in the Quran for obtaining entrance into heaven, is simply to believe in the one God and do good deeds. It doesn’t say you have to be muslim.

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[quote]Hanzo wrote:

People take offense at the tooth fairy comparison not only becuase or your comparing one’s perception of life and the afterlife to childlike fantasies but also because the belief in God or a higher power is (can be) based on philosophical deduction.

Is it possible to disprove the toothfairy? No? But, this is a straw man argument. Atheists often like to create their own finite definition of God as opposed to the “infinite” perception of God that religious people often share. I believe God to be transcendent, a part of every human being whose existence we can only truly grasp after our current life’s over.
[/quote]

You are aware though that the God you think you can philosophically deduct or whose infinity you think you can percept is very likely not the Christian, or any, God(s) with zero interest in human politics and sexuality?

If someone likes to believe in the strong anthropic principle and in some form of deism/pantheism I really do not care, the tooth fairy analogy comes out if people throw bronze age scriptures at me.

And then it fits, if it upsets people or not.