Pit Bull Maulings, Future of Pitbulls in America

Off Topic
81

[quote]legendaryblaze wrote:

[quote]WN76 wrote:

[quote]kevinm1 wrote:

[quote]WN76 wrote:

[quote]kevinm1 wrote:

[quote]MattyXL wrote:

[quote]kevinm1 wrote:
Funny this thread just popped out, as I was actually attacked by a pit on Saturday. I don’t blame the dog I blame the white trash owner. I was leaving my buddies house on Saturday and walking to my car when I saw this lady being walked by her pitbull, I knew it was about to hit the fan so I prepared I remained calm and attempted to put my car between the dog and myself, that didn’t work, I was wearing my thick leather jacket, luckily and I had a knife. When he lunged I put my arm up and my knife in the dog. I feel bad for him and I still don’t think it’s the breed. [/quote]

Holy shit, what happened after that[/quote]

Cops came my knife was confiscated, she was crying the dog didn’t make it and I feel really bad about it, I have small bite marks on my forearm luckily my leather was really thick(not sure I want to keep it now). I’m not sure if I’m going to court or not, I didn’t get anything from the cops, and like I said my wounds were superficial and were cleaned at the scene.

I’m really torn up I enjoy the company of animals over people most of the time and I would never hurt one let alone kill one.[/quote]

So, you used a knife to defend yourself against an attacking dog?[/quote]
I always carry a knife everywhere I go.[/quote]

There was another thread involving a poster who claimed it would be foolish to defend oneself with a knife against an aggressive dog. Glad you came out with minor injuries.
[/quote]

What was their argument?[/quote]

That a knife is a pathetically puny weapon against a larger attack dog.

82

[quote]Steel Nation wrote:
I’ve worked with lots of pit bulls. Never had an issue with any of them. That being said, I would never have one as a pet. I have 2 very young children and one older, and it isn’t worth the risk. The dog only has to fuck up once. There is no margin for error with something that powerful.[/quote]

Well said.

83

[quote]UtahLama wrote:
Bad timing…this just happened a few days ago.

Salt Lake City child severely bitten by pitbull, dog's owner cited - The Salt Lake Tribune [/quote]
As a counterpoint, this also happened a few days ago.
http://www.sanduskyregister.com/article/perkins-township-fire-department/5299516

“The 11-month-old boy required 10 stitches for his injuries.
…
The infant’s father expressed concern because the dog allegedly bit another child several years ago, the report said.
…
The child’s father declined to pursue charges against the dog’s owner.”

So a dog, which allegedly bit a child once before, bit an infant on the head requiring stitches, but no charges are filed. Similar to the other story I posted, this is a goldendoodle, but if a pit were in the exact same situation, I highly doubt the dog would still be alive.

[quote]WN76 wrote:

[quote]Steel Nation wrote:
I’ve worked with lots of pit bulls. Never had an issue with any of them. That being said, I would never have one as a pet. I have 2 very young children and one older, and it isn’t worth the risk. The dog only has to fuck up once. There is no margin for error with something that powerful.[/quote]
Well said. [/quote]
Just wondering, do you guys feel the same hesitation about having young kids around other powerful and/or large breeds? I’m thinking Great Danes, mastiffs, St. Bernards, German Shepards, rotties, etc.

As in, is the concern the simple damage potential or is it still related to pits specifically?

84

It’s simple: know your dog. The whole idea that a dog suddenly does something he never did before line is just an owner’s attempt to appear innocent. Dog owners know what pisses their dogs off. They know how they behave around children and strangers and other dogs. If a dog bites someone the owner is not going to admit the dog has done it before.

It also comes down to breeding. Too many people are uninformed and buy bad dogs from bad breeders. This is why you have German Shepherds that occupy both sides of the spectrum from nervy fear biters to confident and mentally sound. Why? Because some still breed for working ability, the original standards of the breed, and others breed for looks.

Any of the larger breeds should not attack and hurt or kill a child. It should have the confidence and intelligence to discern when something or someone is a real threat. This isn’t always the case anymore since we have people breeding sissified versions of these dogs to sell them to people who are too mentally weak to assert pack leadership and too lazy to train their dogs.

When these people bought the “real” versions of those breeds they ended up with dangerous dogs since they require a firm hand but once they are properly socialized and trained they are actually safer than the watered down versions which are prone to reacting out of fear.

85

[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:
Bad timing…this just happened a few days ago.

Salt Lake City child severely bitten by pitbull, dog's owner cited - The Salt Lake Tribune [/quote]
As a counterpoint, this also happened a few days ago.
http://www.sanduskyregister.com/article/perkins-township-fire-department/5299516
[/quote]

Pitt’s make a much sexier news story, no doubt.

86

[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:
Just wondering, do you guys feel the same hesitation about having young kids around other powerful and/or large breeds? I’m thinking Great Danes, mastiffs, St. Bernards, German Shepards, rotties, etc.

As in, is the concern the simple damage potential or is it still related to pits specifically?[/quote]

Yes, but I wouldn’t lump them all into the same category.

I’m not saying it can’t be done or people with these breeds and kids are bad people, I just don’t trust animals with young children, or trust young children with animals if you want to put it that way. Any dog can bite a kid, but Labs and the like will not maim a kid like the aggressive breeds.

87

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:
Bad timing…this just happened a few days ago.

Salt Lake City child severely bitten by pitbull, dog's owner cited - The Salt Lake Tribune [/quote]
As a counterpoint, this also happened a few days ago.
http://www.sanduskyregister.com/article/perkins-township-fire-department/5299516
[/quote]

Pitt’s make a much sexier news story, no doubt.[/quote]
Yep, most often when it’s negative, sadly.

When there’s a chance for anything positive, they seem hesitant to use “the P word.” It’s so bad, and so obvious, that when the local news has their weekly feature showcasing shelter dogs up for adoption, anything remotely resembling a pit-type is just referred to as “a mix”, but the handler always makes sure to say something like “she’s good with other dogs” or “would be great with a family”, like they’re trying hard to sell the idea of a pit as a good pet without actually saying the word.

But then again, once in a while there’s a nice surprise.

Pit saves family from fire.

The American Human Association named a pit their “Hero Dog of 2013” in the therapy dog category.

88

[quote]WN76 wrote:
I’m not saying it can’t be done or people with these breeds and kids are bad people, I just don’t trust animals with young children, or trust young children with animals if you want to put it that way.[/quote]
I think that’s one good way to put it. Young/small kids can definitely get into trouble when unsupervised or “supervised from a distance” with animals. Studies have also shown that to be a significant factor.

I think kinda get what you’re saying, that a bite from a chihuahua isn’t comparable to one from a pit bull terrier, but at a certain point, I don’t think it makes that much of a difference since things get blurry in the middle, especially when it comes to kids getting bitten. The two non-pit cases I posted earlier both involved attacks by golden retrievers, the infant needed 10 stitches and the 9-year old needed 100+ and eye surgery.

On some level, getting bitten by any dog is unpredictable. Before our first pit, we had a 120-pound black lab (he was a fatso). Labs are well-known gentle giants with kids, but if that lovable goof “snapped”, even I would’ve been in trouble.

Also I think the way you happened to phrase it also touches back to one of the main points of this thread - Are there aggressive breeds or are there aggressive individual dogs? I think, much more often than not, it’s the latter.

I was just reading something on a follow-up of the dogs rescued from Michael Vick’s dog fighting ring, how some of the ones who were adopted have passed canine good citizenship tests and are currently acting as therapy dogs. So training, or lack thereof, has to also be considered as a legit factor too.

FWIW, I will admit to probably being a bit biased as a two-time (so far) pit owner, so, sorry if I’m rambling.

89

No one has even defined what aggressive means when they qualify dog or breed with it.

90

[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:
Also I think the way you happened to phrase it also touches back to one of the main points of this thread - Are there aggressive breeds or are there aggressive individual dogs? I think, much more often than not, it’s the latter.
[/quote]

To me, an aggressive breed is a breed that was initially bred for protection or fighting. These dogs include your GSD, Rotts, Pits, Akitas, Giant Schnauzers, etc (I have seen all of these breeds work well with kids FTR). Any dog can be aggressive, but the breeds I just mentioned are already hardwired for it and just have natural tenacity that would be disastrous if they ever attacked a kid.

91

[quote]zecarlo wrote:
No one has even defined what aggressive means when they qualify dog or breed with it. [/quote]
That needs to be defined?

I didn’t think it wasn’t an ambiguous or confusing term. Aggressive - showing unprovoked hostility and dangerous, threatening behavior.

I don’t think anyone really referred to anything particular scenarios that needed extra clarification like dog aggression, food aggression, etc.

92

[quote]WN76 wrote:

[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:
Also I think the way you happened to phrase it also touches back to one of the main points of this thread - Are there aggressive breeds or are there aggressive individual dogs? I think, much more often than not, it’s the latter.
[/quote]

To me, an aggressive breed is a breed that was initially bred for protection or fighting. These dogs include your GSD, Rotts, Pits, Akitas, Giant Schnauzers, etc (I have seen all of these breeds work well with kids FTR). Any dog can be aggressive, but the breeds I just mentioned are already hardwired for it and just have natural tenacity that would be disastrous if they ever attacked a kid.

[/quote]
Protection does not = aggressive. Aggressive does not = bad. More dog bites are caused by fear than aggression.

93

[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:
No one has even defined what aggressive means when they qualify dog or breed with it. [/quote]
That needs to be defined?

I didn’t think it wasn’t an ambiguous or confusing term. Aggressive - showing unprovoked hostility and dangerous, threatening behavior.

I don’t think anyone really referred to anything particular scenarios that needed extra clarification like dog aggression, food aggression, etc.[/quote]
That sounds like viciousness. The definition you provide for aggression does not apply to the breeds that are being labeled as aggressive. It sounds like behaviors that could apply to individual dogs, of all breeds.

94

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]WN76 wrote:

[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:
Also I think the way you happened to phrase it also touches back to one of the main points of this thread - Are there aggressive breeds or are there aggressive individual dogs? I think, much more often than not, it’s the latter.
[/quote]

To me, an aggressive breed is a breed that was initially bred for protection or fighting. These dogs include your GSD, Rotts, Pits, Akitas, Giant Schnauzers, etc (I have seen all of these breeds work well with kids FTR). Any dog can be aggressive, but the breeds I just mentioned are already hardwired for it and just have natural tenacity that would be disastrous if they ever attacked a kid.

[/quote]
Protection does not = aggressive. Aggressive does not = bad. More dog bites are caused by fear than aggression. [/quote]

A watchdog doesn’t need to be aggressive, but a GUARD dog does need to be aggressive. I’d take a Beagle over a Rotti any day of the week to be a watchdog, but give me the Rotti if I actually need it to do something.

I never said aggressive breeds were bad, I said I wouldn’t want to have an aggressive dog around young children in my home because I don’t trust the dog or the child to be in the same room together.

95

[quote]zecarlo wrote:
Protection does not = aggressive.[/quote]
Agreed, sort of. I’d asterisk it as being “understandably aggressive”, and I’d say it’s the owner’s responsibility to address the situation urgently.

Agreed, sort of. It doesn’t always = bad, but unprovoked aggression certainly does = bad, always.

Sorry, but that sounds very made up. As per the AVMA study I linked to on Pg 1:

“Major co-occurrent factors for the 256 DBRFs [dog bite-related fatalities] included absence of an able-bodied person to intervene (n = 223 [87.1%]), incidental or no familiar relationship of victims with dogs (218 [85.2%]), owner failure to neuter dogs (216 [84.4%]), compromised ability of victims to interact appropriately with dogs (198 [77.4%]), dogs kept isolated from regular positive human interactions versus family dogs (195 [76.2%]), owners’ prior mismanagement of dogs (96 [37.5%]), and owners’ history of abuse or neglect of dogs (54 [21.1%]). Four or more of these factors co-occurred in 206 (80.5%) deaths.”

Unless we’re categorizing fear as “compromised ability of victims to interact appropriately with dogs” and/or “dogs kept isolated from regular positive human interactions versus family dogs”, I don’t see how your statement can be accurate.

96

Fear biters cause more bites. Fatalities are a small part of total dog bites. If that were not the case there would be a lot more fatalities. A dog bites for basically 3 reasons: fear, prey drive, defensive drive. The last two can then turn into fight drive. The more fight in the dog, the more damage that will be done. There are a lot of pits, GSDs, Rotties, etc., out there and if most of them were biting out of defense or prey there would be a lot more dead people.

97

[quote]zecarlo wrote:
Fatalities are a small part of total dog bites.[/quote]
Fair call. I got sidetracked on that one study.

Again though, not to butt heads, but I don’t believe that’s entirely accurate or that it’s so cut-and-dry.

Not sure if the link will make it through, but the Coalition for Living Safely with Dogs and the Colorado Veterinary Medical Association did a study in 2009, collecting 2,000 surveys over the course of a year from animal control organizations across the state.

“Of the estimated 226,152 dogs in the jurisdictions, about 2,000, or 0.28 percent, of the dogs were reported to have bitten someone.”

“Running at large was the leading circumstance under which dog bites occurred, but about half of bites happened while a dog was running at large during dog-to-dog aggression, aggression while protecting property and fear-based aggression.
…
The majority of home bites were attributed to aggression while protecting property, with owners and family members frequently bitten while the dog was protecting food or toys, compared to non-family members being bitten when a dog was protecting its property. This made up 31 percent of all non-relative bites in the home.”

"The five top breeds involved in bite incidents in the study, which aims to challenge breed bans for dogs like Pit Bulls, were Labrador Retrievers (13 percent), Pit Bulls (8.4 percent), German Shepherds (7.8 percent), Rottweilers (3.9 percent) and Chow-Chows (3.5 percent).

Bites involving children brought similar results, with Labrador Retrievers responsible for 15.6 percent, Pit Bulls for 7.5 percent, German Shepherds for 6.8 percent, Smooth-Coated Chihuahuas for 4.2 percent and Rottweilers for 4.1 percent.

The severity of injuries by breed differs greatly, however, with American Bulldogs, Dalmatians, Standard Dachshunds, English Bulldogs and Lhasa Apsos delivering the most severe injuries.

The reasons for attacks also varied by breeds, with Labrador Retrievers most likely to bite when running at large or during possessive aggression. Pit Bulls were most likely to bite while running at large or during dog-on-dog aggression, and German Shepherds bit most often while running at large or protecting their property.

Other breeds, like Golden Retrievers and Border Collies, were more likely to bite while protecting property, play biting or being left unsupervised with the victim. But Smooth-Coated Chihuahuas were by far the most likely to bite during a grooming, kennel or veterinary visit, followed by Australian Shepherds and Siberian Huskies."

98

[quote]WN76 wrote:

[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:
Just wondering, do you guys feel the same hesitation about having young kids around other powerful and/or large breeds? I’m thinking Great Danes, mastiffs, St. Bernards, German Shepards, rotties, etc.

As in, is the concern the simple damage potential or is it still related to pits specifically?[/quote]

Yes, but I wouldn’t lump them all into the same category.

I’m not saying it can’t be done or people with these breeds and kids are bad people, I just don’t trust animals with young children, or trust young children with animals if you want to put it that way. Any dog can bite a kid, but Labs and the like will not maim a kid like the aggressive breeds. [/quote]

Very good point about the kids. My pit has been literally by my sons side since the day we brought him home, doting and protective. Even to the point that when we come home, she doesn’t greet us first, but goes straight to him then greets us.

On the other hand, my son thinks she’s a giant teething ring/step stool/biological exploration object. He tries putting his fingers in her nose, eyes and mouth, he bites, gets dragged around by her tail, you name it, he’ll try it. It became clear very quickly that they were going to have to be supervised to be in the same room together, and separated if the aren’t supervised. Granted she’s very gentle and tolerant, but you just can’t take the chance that he will do something that she will respond to.

The kid is getting better about not doing those things, but it does take time and effort to train kids and prevent bad things from happening.

99

I don’t get the idea of not trusting your kids around a pit you raise yourself.

There are other lines of dog out there that have timid issues that could cause them to lash out at children. I grew up around pit bulls, some of them I found out when I was older were fighting dogs. I was only in trouble with one of these dogs one time, and it wasn’t due to aggression… It was my favorite dog, I’d sneak him food and sometimes I’d pet the dog when he was asleep… The one time he did hurt me was when I was petting him when he was asleep.

I was behind the dog petting his back, when he woke up it was because I had startled him, as he jumped he pushed me backwards and I bumped my head against the bumper of a car. I sat there crying while the dog was kissing me to death, licks to the face and concern all over the dogs face.

The dogs I’ve had bad experiences with as far as timidity have been a Chow, a neighbors dog snapped at my hand and was aggressive towards me when I was a kid trying to get to the dogs house. It acted friendly when I was with the animals family, but any time I was alone with the dog it was hostile, I had a similar experience with a friends Shar pei and timidity. When animals are scared or they have trust issues and are dealing with an assertive person or child, they can and will lash out.

The last experience I had was with a Boxer! A dog I had known for a long time… I hadn’t seen her in a couple years and was home visiting a friend. The dog remembered me and firs thing she did was sit in my lap and demand some love from me, as she used to when she was a pup. So there I am giving and getting love from a dog that missed me, a few minutes later I gently nudged her off of me so I could get up and have a beer…

I’m guessing I became her possession or her property, as soon as she was off of me she turned around and started with the barking and loud grumbles, it was like she reverted back to treating me like a stranger in her home. I don’t remember ever feeling fear, just surprise and my buddy had to grab her.

The thing is two part. It’s how you feel and act around the animals, as well as the animals themselves. IME there just aren’t a lot of human aggressive pits out there, there are some and they came as a result of fighting pit bull lines, which are 95% of the time very very people friendly and people motivated, eager to please their masters animals. There’s the one example of the Chinaman line and thats it! The rest of the time you need to worry about people and their response to dogs.

I don’t know how many times I’ve seen super friendly Rottweilers get roudy and rough with people because they smell fear. I’ve NEVER seen a pit get aggressive towards a person because they sense fear.

100

[quote]Severiano wrote:
concern all over the dogs face. [/quote]
I have come to the conclusion that people that write shit like this are insane.