Picking a Fighting Style

Training
41

[quote]Robert A wrote:
Keeping in mind that I am making a distiction between ability(what you can do), tactics(what exactly you are trying to accomplish while in the shit), and strategy(everything when not in hostile contact):

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
I can agree with that. At the surface grappling seems like a good idea, for the reasons that many have mentioned - namely, the position they want you in is the position where, as a grappler, you’ll be most comfortable.

But like I said, grappling means engaging. Engaging, for a woman against a man, means losing. Every thought should be directed at ESCAPE, not strategy, not tactics, not countering.

I’ve always liked Macyoung’s example of the 5 lb. cat that you can’t keep in your hands. That cat doesn’t want to kill you, it doesn’t want to fight or stay around any longer than it has to - it wants the fuck away, right fucking now, and that’s it.

If there is a “Grappling for self defense” course that outlined this, I would support that kind of thing. But then it’s not really grappling, is it? The goal of “grappling” be it wrestling or BJJ or whatever, is to WIN. To submit. To dominate.

Because the goal of self-defense, especially in the woman’s case, is to not sustain damage and escape quickly, the tactics MUST be totally different.

[/quote]
I am not arguing your point on tactics, I would post in on pretty much every dojo wall if I could. My issue is that the mechanics/technique that you develop by training grappling are what allows you to accomplish those tactics against bigger, stronger, and committed opposition that wants your blood or worse. It is sound foundational technique PLUS the nasty that gets us there. Sure the focus on game/techniques might drift a bit if the emphasis is no ref, but the mechanics are going to be the same. I don’t think merely being viscous is going to get it done, actually to be specific: We are not training for the people whom simply being viscous/violent will handle. We are training for the people where it is not nearly enough. Good AND viscous.

I put the notion that gouging/biting/ripping will solve all the grappling problems in the same catagory of BS as saying eye poking and kicks to the knee cap and testicles are all that is needed to handle a boxer. Neither works out if the boxer or grappler is any good. On the other hand if you have a decent amount of skill and are resolved to be brutal enough, soon enough than you can survive against someone far superior.

I agree 100%. Like I’ve said many times before, if you only train for the best case scenario (opponent is a complete moron, has no fighting skill to speak of, is smaller, weaker, not fully motivated, etc…) then you are screwed should a worst case scenario present itself. But, if you train primarily for a worst case scenario (opponent is smart, highly trained, bigger, stronger, fully committed, etc…), then it’s easier to down shift should a best case scenario should arise.

“Vicious” tactics can absolutely be very effective, as can more “complex effective” skills like joint breaks/dislocations, chokes (in a real fight for your life there is no such thing as a submission, you are looking to seriously damage or incapacitate your attacker), slams, etc… It is true though that the more “simple effective/vicious” stuff is more quickly learned and applied, especially for physically inferior (no offense ladies, just being realistic) individuals. Ideally though you’d want a combination of both.

What I was talking about when I mentioned “ground fighting” was learning some very basic BJJ escapes (you probably only need 1, maybe 2 from each common position) combined with things like eye attacks, nerve attacks, body handles, striking (with the durable parts of your body), biting, and some expedient/improvised weaponry skills. I completely agree that the goal/focus should be on survival and escape and not on “winning/dominating the opponent”. These skills blended together to work as a synergistic whole will be more effective than any of them alone.

Also, I think that who you learn BJJ from makes a big difference in terms of it’s potential effectiveness from a self defense perspective. Zecarlo has said in the past that he learned all the more “vicious” stuff and how to counter/defend against it right from the get go in his BJJ training. I am the same.

The day before UFC 1 Shihan Walt Lysak Jr. (my primary instructor) was back stage at one of the seminars being held by Helio Gracie. Shihan Walt was showing a bunch of the other guys there the more “vicious” side of Jiu-Jitsu that he had learned from his father Walt Lysak Sr. One of Helio’s senior black belts came over to him and said, “what you are doing is more like real BJJ than what is taught in this country.” In other words, the real stuff that was designed for real world combat has all the vicious stuff in it, but since it’s been toned down to make it sport friendly much of the real “down and dirty” stuff has been taken out. If the OP can find a BJJ school who’s primary goal is real world self defense, then that might be a good choice for her.

42

Sentoguy,

I am glad to hear that about Zecarlo, I was trying to give him the benefit of the doubt in my post.

That is a very cool story about the Lysak’s. Question, do either of them have any books or instructional material out?

Regards,

Robert A

43

[quote]Robert A wrote:
Sentoguy,

I am glad to hear that about Zecarlo, I was trying to give him the benefit of the doubt in my post.

That is a very cool story about the Lysak’s. Question, do either of them have any books or instructional material out?

Regards,

Robert A[/quote]

Walt Jr. has a couple of books out and a series of DVD’s. Some of the material is older stuff though and while it still works and is effective, Shihan Walt is always improving his stuff and there really is no substitute for training with him in person and actually feeling his stuff. I’ve never met or seen anyone else (well, besides his brother Charlie or father) who was as good at and knowledgeable about as many different aspects of combat and could actually teach it to others.

I don’t want to turn this into an infomercial thread though, so if you want me to further elaborate, send me a PM and I’ll be glad to do so. :slight_smile:

44

[quote]Robert A wrote:
Keeping in mind that I am making a distiction between ability(what you can do), tactics(what exactly you are trying to accomplish while in the shit), and strategy(everything when not in hostile contact):

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
I can agree with that. At the surface grappling seems like a good idea, for the reasons that many have mentioned - namely, the position they want you in is the position where, as a grappler, you’ll be most comfortable.

But like I said, grappling means engaging. Engaging, for a woman against a man, means losing. Every thought should be directed at ESCAPE, not strategy, not tactics, not countering.

I’ve always liked Macyoung’s example of the 5 lb. cat that you can’t keep in your hands. That cat doesn’t want to kill you, it doesn’t want to fight or stay around any longer than it has to - it wants the fuck away, right fucking now, and that’s it.

If there is a “Grappling for self defense” course that outlined this, I would support that kind of thing. But then it’s not really grappling, is it? The goal of “grappling” be it wrestling or BJJ or whatever, is to WIN. To submit. To dominate.

Because the goal of self-defense, especially in the woman’s case, is to not sustain damage and escape quickly, the tactics MUST be totally different.

[/quote]
I am not arguing your point on tactics, I would post in on pretty much every dojo wall if I could. My issue is that the mechanics/technique that you develop by training grappling are what allows you to accomplish those tactics against bigger, stronger, and committed opposition that wants your blood or worse. It is sound foundational technique PLUS the nasty that gets us there. Sure the focus on game/techniques might drift a bit if the emphasis is no ref, but the mechanics are going to be the same. I don’t think merely being viscous is going to get it done, actually to be specific: We are not training for the people whom simply being viscous/violent will handle. We are training for the people where it is not nearly enough. Good AND viscous.

I put the notion that gouging/biting/ripping will solve all the grappling problems in the same catagory of BS as saying eye poking and kicks to the knee cap and testicles are all that is needed to handle a boxer. Neither works out if the boxer or grappler is any good. On the other hand if you have a decent amount of skill and are resolved to be brutal enough, soon enough than you can survive against someone far superior.
[/quote]

We can agree to disagree with this one I guess.

I’ve had guys by the throat, and whether they knew how to fight or not, everyone panics when you grab on to their Adam’s apple and squeeze. If I had thrown in a bite or something or a couple of headbutts, these would have been devastatingly effective.

Technique rarely wins street rights. Attacking viciously and relentlessly does.

And my final .02 on the subject will be that although I think that its possible that some BJJ techniques will hold up if taught in what I guess is the “original” way of doing it, which includes all the “nasty shit” that the Gracies CONVENIENTLY left out (but have NEVER demonstrated, even in their seminars, a couple of which I have attended), it would be possible for it to be a semi-decent foundation for self defense FOR A WOMAN seeking to avoid rape.

However, that’s again a small window of usefulness in my eyes, and a lot of time spent dealing with just one scenario… and that system will not be useful for self-defense in my eyes until it is taught predominantly from the standing to position. Which I believe they call judo. And also includes all of the other shit that martial arts don’t often teach, which are the mental skills needed.

45

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

We can agree to disagree with this one I guess.
[/quote]
Fair enough. We were bound to disagree about something sooner or later.

[quote]
I’ve had guys by the throat, and whether they knew how to fight or not, everyone panics when you grab on to their Adam’s apple and squeeze.[/quote]

Maybe the first 50 or a hundred times it happens, sure. This should be one of the things that gets drummed out of you in training, just like turning away from blows to the head gets trained out of you. Now, maybe I am mistaken, but aren’t choke defenses taught/drilled ad nauseum in pretty much every damn martial art that even tries to call itself self defense? I had probably been choked like this several thousand times before I turned sixteen just from training. It never gets comfortable, but the panic is not really there anymore. In fact one of the great life lessons I think martial arts in general gives you is “If I am in pain, I am alive…and I am still conscious, ergo I am still in this fight.” or to put it another way “Being wounded does not mean you are out of the fight. It merely confirms you are in one.”

Really? I am not saying some kind of ballet perfect/HL reel level of technique is realistic to expect (I am thrilled if technique only gets 50% more shitty), but having some level of technique is damn near always a requisite to winning any conflict unless the plan is to literally choke them with our dead.

Simple straight punches (which I see as a trained technique) seem to do really well. This is the foundation, the tools, that can then be applied viciously and relentlessly.

Don’t forget about the early guard passes leaving details out that would leave you offered up to a triangle choke. That was awesome too. I am with you on this criticism. If BJJ is taught with a sport emphasis at a school I am fine as long as they are honest about it. I never criticize boxing by pointing out that you cant shoot a gun wearing the gloves. I dislike the mistaken notion that what I see taught so often is the complete deal, and it is not. I will cede that the fundamentals that enable the “street” stuff AND the high level “competition” stuff are the same, so I get that most students would/should train the same at first regardless. Same with striking. Work on generating power, moving, and not getting hit before you bother with anything else.

Actually, when you add in the weapons/strikes/“dirty” tactics you basically have the classic jujutsu that Kano made Judo and Helio made BJJ. Funny though, I have heard stories of Carlson Gracie bringing in boxing coaches almost from the start. This start from the knees, no hitting, no rough stuff is probably a North American marketing strategy. The old BJJ fights show ears getting bit off. As for the mental skills those that want it seek it out.

Regards,

Robert A

46

[quote]Robert A wrote:

Maybe the first 50 or a hundred times it happens, sure. This should be one of the things that gets drummed out of you in training, just like turning away from blows to the head gets trained out of you. Now, maybe I am mistaken, but aren’t choke defenses taught/drilled ad nauseum in pretty much every damn martial art that even tries to call itself self defense? I had probably been choked like this several thousand times before I turned sixteen just from training. It never gets comfortable, but the panic is not really there anymore. In fact one of the great life lessons I think martial arts in general gives you is “If I am in pain, I am alive…and I am still conscious, ergo I am still in this fight.” or to put it another way “Being wounded does not mean you are out of the fight. It merely confirms you are in one.”
[/quote]

Well, I’m not really talking about the standard front choke, I’m talking about grabbing the windpipe with my finger tips and clamping and pulling.

While I do think that front choke defenses are taught ad nauseum, there’s the thing about how half those defenses don’t work in the first place. On top of that, the feeling of having your windpipe pulled (or hit) is MUCH different and, in my experience, more unnerving than the feeling of the standard choke.

But also, most guys who get into these kinds of things are not trained martial artists in the first place. None of the guys I’ve done it to have been.

Eh. Sometimes. It depends on what situation you’re in. I saw one guy attack another guy who was still sitting on his barstool. When the attacker went at him, his stool tipped back and actually landed against the wall and was up on 2 legs. No amount of technique was gonna help that guy.

Another time my buddy got into a brawl in Canada, and, while he is a trained fighter, he made the mistake of paying too much attention to the guy he was shit talking that was standing in front of him. Needless to say, he got sucker punched from the side and dropped. No technique could help him.

One time I went after someone who was sitting down and facing away from me. I hit him twice in the head, but as he got up to face me he grabbed a full beer bottle and slammed it into my face. No technique helped me there. Just bad luck.

What I’m saying is, more or less, is that the answer is “maybe.” Sometimes it could help, sometimes it won’t matter, sometimes it will help in one second until you get hit with a bottle or stop signed or whatever… it’s as likely to not help at all as it is to help, just by the nature of the scenarios you’ll face.

There’s the old plan about a shitty plan violently executed that pertains to this big time.

47

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

Well, I’m not really talking about the standard front choke, I’m talking about grabbing the windpipe with my finger tips and clamping and pulling.

While I do think that front choke defenses are taught ad nauseum, there’s the thing about how half those defenses don’t work in the first place. On top of that, the feeling of having your windpipe pulled (or hit) is MUCH different and, in my experience, more unnerving than the feeling of the standard choke.
[/quote]
Ok, I get the disconnect here. I AM talking about “your” type of “front choke”. The thumbs or fingers are either trying to squeeze the shit out of the wind pipe (technically trachea), slide the adam’s apple to the side (displace the Thyroid cartilidge to the side with the intent of restricting the air way and causing a bonus gag reflex), wrap all the way behind the wind pipe (Can’t happen in reality because fingers don’t go through skin. What can happen is that you get a good amount of pressure on the esophagus, with all of its nerves and pain receptors and also get force on the soft, i.e. less cartilaginous, part of the trachea, has to be soft to allow the esophagus to expand so food can get in, part of the wind pipe), or put pressure on the carotid triangle with all of its tubes and wires and shit (common carotid, internal jugular, vagus nerve). All of this HURTS and makes it tough to breath either by collapsing/squeezing the airway or through gag reflex.

Now, if enough pressure is used from either a grip, or a strike to damage the cartilage enough that it swells shut, you asphyxiate and die. Barring that it is fairly familiar. It sucks, but it is a somewhat familiar suck.

This is how I was “front choked” from 14/15 yrs old and on, and how I had to choke others so they could practice. Doing it the shitty way where you just apply pressure with the web of your hand is best left to S&M jackasses and was not allowed/considered an insult to the person defending.

Very true, and not all “trained martial artists” are.

If this turned out the way I am picturing it is actually one of the reasons I like BJJ/modified BJJ. If you are sitting and someone jumps onto you then sort of “pulling guard” while upright seems to lessen the ass kicking/keep you alive enough to figure something out. Also works if you are sitting next to each other. Not a first choice for sure, but when you have fucked up all the important stuff so bad you didn’t even “rise from seated” in order to rise to the occasion it can let you live long enough to learn from your mistake.

Yup, ambushed/outmaneuvered. If you get dropped/crippled in the initial moments you are fucked. Hopefully, you have others with you.

Fucking up an ambush sucks. Though, I suspect now you are less likely to let someone put a bottle in their hands.

NOTE TO ALL: the honesty in this post is why accusing FightinIrish of having an “inflated sense of self” is somewhere between mis-worded and laughable.

Well that goes for damn near everything, and you have said it better than I have.

Regards,

Robert A

48

[quote]Robert A wrote:
Ok, I get the disconnect here. I AM talking about “your” type of “front choke”. The thumbs or fingers are either trying to squeeze the shit out of the wind pipe (technically trachea), slide the adam’s apple to the side (displace the Thyroid cartilidge to the side with the intent of restricting the air way and causing a bonus gag reflex), wrap all the way behind the wind pipe (Can’t happen in reality because fingers don’t go through skin. What can happen is that you get a good amount of pressure on the esophagus, with all of its nerves and pain receptors and also get force on the soft, i.e. less cartilaginous, part of the trachea, has to be soft to allow the esophagus to expand so food can get in, part of the wind pipe), or put pressure on the carotid triangle with all of its tubes and wires and shit (common carotid, internal jugular, vagus nerve). All of this HURTS and makes it tough to breath either by collapsing/squeezing the airway or through gag reflex.

Now, if enough pressure is used from either a grip, or a strike to damage the cartilage enough that it swells shut, you asphyxiate and die. Barring that it is fairly familiar. It sucks, but it is a somewhat familiar suck.

This is how I was “front choked” from 14/15 yrs old and on, and how I had to choke others so they could practice. Doing it the shitty way where you just apply pressure with the web of your hand is best left to S&M jackasses and was not allowed/considered an insult to the person defending.
[/quote]

haha, fair enough then. I took martial arts off and on for years and never saw a defense for that, or even saw them approach it.

One time though I had a guy who I had in that grip puke all over the ground while he his body was shaking, so I figured it works pretty well haha.

He was no martial artist.

He was, however a dickhead.

Yes, I’ve been drinking a bit tonight.

Haha, it was the most awkward thing I have ever seen. Guy’s barstool was caught between bar, which the feet were wedged against, and the wall, which the top was driven into (it was a very narrow bar) and he was like fucking diagonal. And the guy he had a row with went right for his throat. It’s the first time I ever saw someone’s face actually change colours.

Thankfully he did, that night they actually called out the Canadian riot police, shields and all.

Ha, it wasn’t actually an ambush. He had done some kind of inappropriate thing to me while sitting, then turned back around in his seat. I hit’em, and he came up and popped me.

I didn’t actually find out it was a bottle until the next day, when the whole side of my face turned colors and one my buddies told me that it was actually a bottle, not his fist. I truly had no idea, because it all happened so fast.

Part of the reason I’m wary when people think they know shit for shit about weapons. If that fucker shattered i’d have lost my eye but I had no idea what it was until 36 hours later.

haha, I’m an abrasive jerkoff, I know that. No worries. Haters gon hate. But I’ve lost far more fights than I won, but folks who don’t really know me aren’t expected to believe me, I guess.

49

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

I’ve had guys by the throat, and whether they knew how to fight or not, everyone panics when you grab on to their Adam’s apple and squeeze. If I had thrown in a bite or something or a couple of headbutts, these would have been devastatingly effective.
[/quote]

Those can be good techniques (I prefer to call them skills, more on that later) and I don’t think that people are arguing that they aren’t effective.

See, here is where I think semantics are getting in the way again. Like I said above, I don’t like the term “techniques” because people tend to get this picture in their mind of people doing things like “x blocks” or fancy Aikido Steven Seagal movies stuff when they hear that word. I prefer the word “skills” because I think it’s more true to the nature of combat.

Being able to move your head out of the way of incoming attacks is a skill; using more durable parts of your body to “shield” less durable parts of your body is a skill; being able to effectively strike your opponent’s vulnerable targets with the more durable parts of your body is a skill; biting is a skill, gouging eyes is a skill; grabbing the throat is a skill; etc…etc…etc…

Some skills require less training to be able to be used than others, this is true. But everything in fighting (that is controllable anyhow) is a skill IMO. You are of course right though that attacking violently and relentlessly is also a big part of the equation.

Well, to be fair though, this thread is specifically about what the OP (a woman) should look for when considering self defense. The suggestions and which systems/skill sets would be most appropriate would (hopefully anyhow) change if we were talking more so about say a 18-40 year old young, strong, athletic male, or 70 year old woman, or 10 year old child, or someone living in a war zone, etc…

And as far as starting in a standing position, yeah that would be a good idea as well. But again, we are talking about a female defending against a potential date rape situation here, or being attacked by an intimate partner or relative. Many of the situations she may encounter might start out with her already on the ground.

50

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Eh. Sometimes. It depends on what situation you’re in. I saw one guy attack another guy who was still sitting on his barstool. When the attacker went at him, his stool tipped back and actually landed against the wall and was up on 2 legs. No amount of technique was gonna help that guy.

Another time my buddy got into a brawl in Canada, and, while he is a trained fighter, he made the mistake of paying too much attention to the guy he was shit talking that was standing in front of him. Needless to say, he got sucker punched from the side and dropped. No technique could help him.

One time I went after someone who was sitting down and facing away from me. I hit him twice in the head, but as he got up to face me he grabbed a full beer bottle and slammed it into my face. No technique helped me there. Just bad luck.

What I’m saying is, more or less, is that the answer is “maybe.” Sometimes it could help, sometimes it won’t matter, sometimes it will help in one second until you get hit with a bottle or stop signed or whatever… it’s as likely to not help at all as it is to help, just by the nature of the scenarios you’ll face.

There’s the old plan about a shitty plan violently executed that pertains to this big time.
[/quote]

If you are truly completely blindsided, then yes, it’s pretty much going to come down to the luck of the draw and how hard or a head/good of a chin you’ve got. You are either going to be KO’d (in which case you are screwed), hurt (in which case there is still a chance that you might recover and be able to fight back), or relatively unharmed (in which case you can fight back effectively).

In regards the situation aspects of self defense and whether or not “techniques” will work, it also depends on whether or not you train for those situations.

We split up “fighting postures/positions” (don’t like the term “stances” as it implies both that you have to be standing, and in a static position) into 3 basic types:

  1. Intentional- any “fighting stance” that you’ve likely been taught (be it a wrestler’s stance, boxing stance, Muay Thai stance, cat stance, bow and arrow stance, “the fence”, etc…) is likely an intentional fighting posture/position. These are postures/positions which we intentionally adopt because they give us some sort of tactical advantage. If there is time/opportunity, then you should adopt an intentional fighting posture/position.

  2. Incidental- this is a position/posture that you just happen to be in when you find yourself in a fight. This could be anything from sitting in a chair (at the movies, at a bar, in a restaurant, etc…), laying down (at the beach, in a park, in bed, etc…), bent down changing a flat tire, basically any possible position that you might find yourself in (that you do not put yourself in purposely for the purpose of combat) when an attack begins.

  3. Accidental- this is any position/posture that you find yourself in by accident. Your example of the guy who got pushed/punched while sitting on a bar stool and found himself kind of half way between having fallen over and sitting up would be an example of an accidental fighting posture/position. Others might include you winding up on the ground due to stepping on a beer bottle/a patch of ice/tripping over an unseen obstacle behind you/etc…, finding yourself wedged half way through a picnic table, under a table, sitting in a trash can, basically any position that you wind up in by mistake/accident.

Using this model, we view every possible position that you could ever find yourself in a fighting posture/position (which usually causes a huge paradigm shift in students). We then actually practice utilizing our skills from all sorts of fighting positions/postures. We’ll sometimes practice from intentional positions/postures, sometimes from incidental fighting postures/positions, and sometimes from accidental fighting postures/positions.

I can honestly say that, unless you get completely blindsided and KO’d right off the bat and are therefore unable to fight back, I have never seen or found a position/posture that I couldn’t utilize my skill sets from. But you have to actually train it. Most systems out there fail to realize this paradigm and therefore fail to prepare their students to be able to fight effectively regardless of the position/posture they find themselves in.

51

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Eh. Sometimes. It depends on what situation you’re in. I saw one guy attack another guy who was still sitting on his barstool. When the attacker went at him, his stool tipped back and actually landed against the wall and was up on 2 legs. No amount of technique was gonna help that guy.

Another time my buddy got into a brawl in Canada, and, while he is a trained fighter, he made the mistake of paying too much attention to the guy he was shit talking that was standing in front of him. Needless to say, he got sucker punched from the side and dropped. No technique could help him.

One time I went after someone who was sitting down and facing away from me. I hit him twice in the head, but as he got up to face me he grabbed a full beer bottle and slammed it into my face. No technique helped me there. Just bad luck.

What I’m saying is, more or less, is that the answer is “maybe.” Sometimes it could help, sometimes it won’t matter, sometimes it will help in one second until you get hit with a bottle or stop signed or whatever… it’s as likely to not help at all as it is to help, just by the nature of the scenarios you’ll face.

There’s the old plan about a shitty plan violently executed that pertains to this big time.
[/quote]

If you are truly completely blindsided, then yes, it’s pretty much going to come down to the luck of the draw and how hard or a head/good of a chin you’ve got. You are either going to be KO’d (in which case you are screwed), hurt (in which case there is still a chance that you might recover and be able to fight back), or relatively unharmed (in which case you can fight back effectively).

In regards the situation aspects of self defense and whether or not “techniques” will work, it also depends on whether or not you train for those situations.

We split up “fighting postures/positions” (don’t like the term “stances” as it implies both that you have to be standing, and in a static position) into 3 basic types:

  1. Intentional- any “fighting stance” that you’ve likely been taught (be it a wrestler’s stance, boxing stance, Muay Thai stance, cat stance, bow and arrow stance, “the fence”, etc…) is likely an intentional fighting posture/position. These are postures/positions which we intentionally adopt because they give us some sort of tactical advantage. If there is time/opportunity, then you should adopt an intentional fighting posture/position.

  2. Incidental- this is a position/posture that you just happen to be in when you find yourself in a fight. This could be anything from sitting in a chair (at the movies, at a bar, in a restaurant, etc…), laying down (at the beach, in a park, in bed, etc…), bent down changing a flat tire, basically any possible position that you might find yourself in (that you do not put yourself in purposely for the purpose of combat) when an attack begins.

  3. Accidental- this is any position/posture that you find yourself in by accident. Your example of the guy who got pushed/punched while sitting on a bar stool and found himself kind of half way between having fallen over and sitting up would be an example of an accidental fighting posture/position. Others might include you winding up on the ground due to stepping on a beer bottle/a patch of ice/tripping over an unseen obstacle behind you/etc…, finding yourself wedged half way through a picnic table, under a table, sitting in a trash can, basically any position that you wind up in by mistake/accident.

Using this model, we view every possible position that you could ever find yourself in a fighting posture/position (which usually causes a huge paradigm shift in students). We then actually practice utilizing our skills from all sorts of fighting positions/postures. We’ll sometimes practice from intentional positions/postures, sometimes from incidental fighting postures/positions, and sometimes from accidental fighting postures/positions.

I can honestly say that, unless you get completely blindsided and KO’d right off the bat and are therefore unable to fight back, I have never seen or found a position/posture that I couldn’t utilize my skill sets from. But you have to actually train it. Most systems out there fail to realize this paradigm and therefore fail to prepare their students to be able to fight effectively regardless of the position/posture they find themselves in.[/quote]

I absolutely agree, and I think that it’s something that is completely overlooked by the majority of self-defense classes and instructors, especially those who have never actually been in a fight themselves.

52

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Eh. Sometimes. It depends on what situation you’re in. I saw one guy attack another guy who was still sitting on his barstool. When the attacker went at him, his stool tipped back and actually landed against the wall and was up on 2 legs. No amount of technique was gonna help that guy.

Another time my buddy got into a brawl in Canada, and, while he is a trained fighter, he made the mistake of paying too much attention to the guy he was shit talking that was standing in front of him. Needless to say, he got sucker punched from the side and dropped. No technique could help him.

One time I went after someone who was sitting down and facing away from me. I hit him twice in the head, but as he got up to face me he grabbed a full beer bottle and slammed it into my face. No technique helped me there. Just bad luck.

What I’m saying is, more or less, is that the answer is “maybe.” Sometimes it could help, sometimes it won’t matter, sometimes it will help in one second until you get hit with a bottle or stop signed or whatever… it’s as likely to not help at all as it is to help, just by the nature of the scenarios you’ll face.

There’s the old plan about a shitty plan violently executed that pertains to this big time.
[/quote]

If you are truly completely blindsided, then yes, it’s pretty much going to come down to the luck of the draw and how hard or a head/good of a chin you’ve got. You are either going to be KO’d (in which case you are screwed), hurt (in which case there is still a chance that you might recover and be able to fight back), or relatively unharmed (in which case you can fight back effectively).

In regards the situation aspects of self defense and whether or not “techniques” will work, it also depends on whether or not you train for those situations.

We split up “fighting postures/positions” (don’t like the term “stances” as it implies both that you have to be standing, and in a static position) into 3 basic types:

  1. Intentional- any “fighting stance” that you’ve likely been taught (be it a wrestler’s stance, boxing stance, Muay Thai stance, cat stance, bow and arrow stance, “the fence”, etc…) is likely an intentional fighting posture/position. These are postures/positions which we intentionally adopt because they give us some sort of tactical advantage. If there is time/opportunity, then you should adopt an intentional fighting posture/position.

  2. Incidental- this is a position/posture that you just happen to be in when you find yourself in a fight. This could be anything from sitting in a chair (at the movies, at a bar, in a restaurant, etc…), laying down (at the beach, in a park, in bed, etc…), bent down changing a flat tire, basically any possible position that you might find yourself in (that you do not put yourself in purposely for the purpose of combat) when an attack begins.

  3. Accidental- this is any position/posture that you find yourself in by accident. Your example of the guy who got pushed/punched while sitting on a bar stool and found himself kind of half way between having fallen over and sitting up would be an example of an accidental fighting posture/position. Others might include you winding up on the ground due to stepping on a beer bottle/a patch of ice/tripping over an unseen obstacle behind you/etc…, finding yourself wedged half way through a picnic table, under a table, sitting in a trash can, basically any position that you wind up in by mistake/accident.

Using this model, we view every possible position that you could ever find yourself in a fighting posture/position (which usually causes a huge paradigm shift in students). We then actually practice utilizing our skills from all sorts of fighting positions/postures. We’ll sometimes practice from intentional positions/postures, sometimes from incidental fighting postures/positions, and sometimes from accidental fighting postures/positions.

I can honestly say that, unless you get completely blindsided and KO’d right off the bat and are therefore unable to fight back, I have never seen or found a position/posture that I couldn’t utilize my skill sets from. But you have to actually train it. Most systems out there fail to realize this paradigm and therefore fail to prepare their students to be able to fight effectively regardless of the position/posture they find themselves in.[/quote]

I absolutely agree, and I think that it’s something that is completely overlooked by the majority of self-defense classes and instructors, especially those who have never actually been in a fight themselves.[/quote]

Experience is the best teacher. Hard sparring in the gym/dojo/kwoon/etc… with as few rules as possible (but still enough so that you’re able to survive the training and still continue to train) would be second best, but there is no substitute for real world experience. Training can at best be realistic, but it can never be real.

The problem of course is that morally and legally you can’t encourage students to go out and get into real fights (or at least shouldn’t). So, unless they are purposely putting themselves in harms way (in which case they are failing to practice the most effective methods of self defense which are avoidance and diffusion), or they live in a dangerous area where trouble regularly finds them, this hard sparring might be the closest they get to the real thing. In such a case, they would be smart to seek out the experiential knowledge of someone who had experienced real world combat and try to learn from their mistakes/successes/observations as well as possibly studying as much film on real violent encounters as possible and trying to learn from that. Many don’t do this though.

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“Simulations” as well as sparring can be useful for this too, IMO. What I mean is where you set up a realistic, normal, everyday situation where the trainee possibly has some interaction etc. with the attacker(s) prior to the outset of the attack and doesn’t specifically know when it’s “go time”, or even who will attack or from where. Of course, you know you’re in a training scenario so something is likely to happen, but you don’t know exactly what. The unexpected ups the stress/realism.

This is time-consuming, I know, and not practical for day in day out training but it can be a really powerful training aid, if it’s done properly.

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It makes me so happy to read this stuff, because its a part of our regular training methods - simulations, fighting from a position of least advantage, fighting with your hands tied or carrying a heavy bag strapped across your body so you can’t dump it. “Obstacle courses” where you face a succession of different threats, forcing your way through crowds. I actually used that one at the Girltalk show a few months ago.

I agree, one of the most difficult things is to make it “real”, because even with the music turned up so loud you can’t hear anything else, the strobe light going, and being hit & dragged around by your hair, its still just training.

One of my students kept complaining that it wasn’t real enough, but as a level one student there was only so much pressure I’m supposed to put on him. One day I told him to close his eyes & when he did I slapped the shit out of him (to shock him) & had the whole class immediately start slamming him from every direction with pads. He was pretty startled at first, but then it all became a game to him. Fail.

I think the most stressful & frightening thing we do, from my perspective, is sparring multiple partners. The instructor works you until you’re exhausted, then you spar anywhere from 2 people to having the whole class coming after you. Everyone is in full gear so the hits & kicks are hard & maybe someone throws off their gloves & drags you to the ground or out the room or grabs your head gear & slings you around. It scares the shit out of me, which is probably the point of the drill as much as not letting them take your back.

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Great stuff Miss P. A couple of things you may or may not already use: tie one or both arms to the torso to simulate injury/immobilization, loud (reeeeally loud) music + nightclub style lighting, smoke machine strobes etc., goggles smeared with vaseline to simulate visual impairment (pepper spray), stuff on the floor (wiffle bats, pads etc) as tripping hazards (or improvised weapons), hood somebody and spin them until they’re wicked dizzy then yank the hood and start the drill…

I can’t take credit for any of this, but you may see something you like that you haven’t yet tried to mix it up.

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Thanks, batman!

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First I would like to say, I only read about half the posts on page one, so If I happen to repeat anything that has already been said, please excuse.

I would like to mention, From my years of various martial art training, one rule I have longgg lived by. The teacher > the art. Sometimes you can take up a ‘bunk’ art at a ‘mcdojo’ such as TKD, in which hosts alot of flashy, unpractical styles of attacking. But you may just stumble accross, that TKD instructor, who, knows the meaning of practicality, and will, instead of just teaching you the proper technique in the striking, show you the proper set up, suggesting they know dominate angles of attack. Meaning, something flashy such as a Spinning Jump Hook-kick, could still be an effective strike, if, and only if, you know where and when to properly execute such a move. This all may sound such as commen sense when looking for an art, but lets take a more practical self defense art, such as boxing,or muay thai kick boxing. These arts focus strongly on the basic, practical striking, Jabs, Straights, Straight kicks, Round kicks, even the close combat strikes, of elbow strikes, and upward knee strikes. These all sound like a great, basic arsenal to perfect, however. Your teach may not know dominate angels of attack. Thier lack of footwork movement may leave you with limtied movement thinking, leaving you wide up for attacks, with little to none instint on which way to move, to not only evade an on comming strike, but immediatly be able to counter, and respond with an appropriate response.

With that being said. Take the time to first locate all the dojo’s, gyms, training centers, etc. That include martial art, and self defense training. Jot down a list, of the one’s closest to you first. Maybe comit a day or a few out of the week to traveling to each location, and study the class. From me experiences, Most schools will offer you a free month, or free two weeks of training, in hopes to grab your interest. Spend those ‘scouting days’ and look for the school with an intelligent teacher. I would suggest, taking notes to schools in which the main instructer, does alot of clases him/herself, perhaps smaller classes, for more one on one training, classes that actually break down to the basics.

The schools that don’t just have you stand in a cadance, 1, 2, 3. Jab, Straight, Jab. Repeat repeat repeat. Yawn.yawn.yawn. Variety keeps you from getting bored, and variety is key to shocking as in body building, its the key to shock your mind, into an aspect of life that is new to you, such as the combat arts. You’ll want to have fun, while staying serious. Have fun on the inside, with a tough exterior.

Bottom line is, find a school not based on the art, but what they teach. If you see a school with alot of low ‘ranked’ students, able to land some impressive moves, on higher ranked studens. Students that when, preform a movement sloppy, the teacher stops them, shows them the proper movement, and has them continue, giving kudos upon abserving a well perform technique. Versus the schools that are popular arts, supposdily the ‘best’ style of fightin, that just sit back and say do this do that, and show little interest in the improvement, and more about the $$$.

This my seem basic, but my 2 cents that should come first when planning on taking up any instructor in any art style period, the physical or non in the likes. I hope this helps you, even in the least bit. Happy training =)