Picking a Fighting Style

[Robert_A]

Physicality,

You have already received some fantastic advice in this thread. Pay special attention to what FightinIrish wrote.

These some other threads that you may want to read, as they deal with elements of this subject.
Krav Maga centered:
http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_boxing_fighting_mma_combat/krav_maga_5?id=4728549&pageNo=0

Roundhead’s Grappling for self defense/Boxing or grappling vs reality martial arts
http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_boxing_fighting_mma_combat/grappling_for_self_defence?id=4638321&pageNo=0

Bit of a train wreck in the OP but FighinIrish and Sentoguy make some fantastic points RE self defense

Streetfighting How To?

Several Notes:
1.) I tell people to find something reasonably applicable, that they enjoy doing. This stuff is a physical skill and requires practice. Putting in the weeks to months to years of training in order to get the most benefit is much easier if you are doing something you enjoy. I have written about this before.

2.) If actual “self defense” aka defense against criminal violence is your goal than weapons training is fantastic. Firearms were invented for a reason. If that is not your interest, that is fine to.

3.) Most of the game in self defense happens before contact is made. Half the game may be simply keeping aware of what is going on around you, another quarter is probably acting on this knowledge in a timely fashion. This transcends styles/schools. I whole heartily recommend Jeff Cooper’s PRINCIPLES OF PERSONAL DEFENSE as an intro to the mind set. Although Cooper is thought of as a gun guy this book transcends weapons/platforms and in my opinion should be required reading for any person regardless of gender or philosophy before they reach adulthood. It is brief. It is cheap. It is that good.
http://www.paladin-press.com/product/Principles_of_Personal_Defense/Other_Combat_Shooting

4.) On bigger/stronger males: It is true that size and strength always matter, but so does technique and spirit. The purpose of martial arts, at least as I explain them, is to deal with problems you could not otherwise deal with by using technique. Saying that you will never be able to survive against a man who is 60+ pounds heavier than you is as incorrect as saying size does not matter. If your technique is good enough(read significantly better than his), and you are willing to sell your life dearly, than there are a great many things you can accomplish. If this is truly about self defense than the goal is not to best someone who was deemed even enough to you in capability that it makes a contest (like in a sport), but to be far more trouble than you are worth to anyone that would attack you.

Jeff Cooper wrote “One bleeding-heart type asked me in a recent interview if I did not agree that ‘violence begets violence.’ I told him that it is my earnest endeavor to see that it does. I would like very much to ensure â?? and in some cases I have â?? that any man who offers violence to his fellow citizen begets a whole lot more in return than he can enjoy.”)

Regards,

Robert A

[kaisermetal]

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

If you’ve ever read “A Fighter’s Heart” (which I believe everyone on this forum should), Sam Sheridan interacts with a Tai Chi teacher who can generate more than enough power to put someone down, and it’s because his techniques are working off the same principles that boxers’ do.

[/quote]

btw, not A Fighter’s Heart but i just started reading A Fighter’s Mind and it’s pretty much awesome.

[Sentoguy]

First, you’ve received some great advice so far physicality, so I’m not going to repeat it yet again.

If your main goal is self defense then there are a few things that you should consider when making your choice that I don’t think have been addressed yet (quickly read through the thread, so if someone did mention them and I missed it then I apologize for not giving them credit):

1. How old are you?

2. What type of “neighborhood” do you reside in?

Keep in mind that different types of crimes are more or less common depending on a person’s gender, age, and socioeconomic status (an consequently the area that they live in many cases).

Statistically speaking most violent attacks on women (younger women anyhow) are committed by people who they know intimately (family members, spouses, boyfriends/dates) and not by complete strangers. Sure, being aware and not putting yourself in bad situations where you could be more apt to get attacked by total strangers is always a good idea. But, often times you may not see any signs of violence or have any alarms go off about someone until the attack has ensued. I’m not trying to scare you, just being honest.

Also, realize that the types of attacks that are likely to occur will happen at very, very close range, and may often times wind up (or even start) on the ground. Now, I’m a big fan of learning stand-up striking skills (boxing and Muay Thai/Kickboxing are two great ones, as are several TMA’s if you find the right teacher), but how much good is the ability to slip, bob and weave and punch really going to do in a potential date rape scenario? As uncomfortable as it may be at first, I’d strongly suggest learning some ground fighting (and grounded defense) skills.

Note that I didn’t say grappling (though that is a part of ground fighting and can definitely help); there is a difference. While learning more “complex effective” skill sets like arm bars, triangle chokes, etc… can improve your arsenal of potential ways to escape from, immobilize or even kill an attacker those really aren’t the things which you are most likely going to be pulling off effectively (without a LOT of training) against a much bigger, stronger, motivated attacker. What’s going to be the highest percentage things for a smaller person such as yourself are going to be the most “vicious” (as Miss P mentioned). That means stuff like biting, eye attacks, body handles, maybe some small digit manipulation (finger locks), improvised weapons (keys, pens, kubotan, etc…), maybe some pain points (nerve attacks), and striking with the hard/durable parts of your body (elbows/forearms, knees, palm heel, maybe even head) combined with some simple yet effective escapes (taught in just about any good grappling system).

Like Miss P stated above, your best self defense tactics though are going to be setting boundaries (using things like speech, body language, and intonation) and developing a willingness to survive. If you don’t portray yourself as a victim, but instead as a “bad target”, then you are less likely to be targeted. So, make sure that whatever art you choose to do addresses the psychological, cerebral, verbal, and postural side of self defense. Not letting the fight become physical in the first place is always the best/safest course of action. Even if it does become physical though, there is no reason to stop using those skills.

A number of years back a woman attended a weekend long seminar with Tony Blauer on cerebral self defense. All through out the seminar Tony kept harping on the fact that a person’s mind is actually their best weapon, not necessarily any part of their body or skill set.

Well, a couple weeks after the seminar this woman went out on a blind date. She was having a great time, the guy seemed really nice, and after leaving dinner she decided to have them stop by her apartment so she could fix up her make-up before they headed on to their next destination. She left him sitting in the bedroom and she went into the bathroom to freshen up.

In the midst of re-applying her make-up and looking into her purse to find something she suddenly got an eerie feeling and looked up at the mirror to see her date standing behind her in the doorway, just staring at her. Before she could ask, “what are you doing?” he had grabbed her, threw her to the floor and preceded to start to rape her.

Thinking back about what Tony had said she thought fast and said, “what are you doing?” Her attacker paused for a minute, grabbed her wrists to prevent her from using them and knelt on her leg to prevent her from being able to kick him or knee him with either leg. He looked at her for a couple seconds, then continue his attack. Again, she ask “what are you doing?!” this time more forcefully and followed it with “do you want to do this here or in the bedroom?”

Upon hearing this the attacker paused, let go of her wrists and started to get up to head into the bedroom. As soon as the opportunity arose she kicked him as hard as she could in the testicles, pushed him away and ran out of the apartment as quickly as she could to saftey.

In this case a smaller, weaker woman overcame a larger, stronger man not because she was some bad ass black belt or professional fighter (which by the way certainly couldn’t hurt), but because she used her greatest weapon against him (her mind/imagination) and outsmarted him. She understood what he wanted and used it against him to get him to let his guard down just long enough to where she could actually use some physical skills and then got the hell out of dodge as soon as she could. That understanding of women’s self defense is what you should be looking for IMO when observing schools. If, once having developed a solid understanding of this reality you wanted to further your training/expand your skill sets with things like boxing, Muay Thai, BJJ/wrestling/Judo (more than just a few very basic escapes), or TMA’s like Wing Chun, Shotokan, Kyokushin, JJJ, etc… then by all means do so.

If there is no such place in your area, then I’d probably pick either Muay Thai or BJJ/Judo/Wrestling as those are going to best address the situations that you are likely to wind up in (very close range, probably already entangled, and quite possibly either going to or on the ground) IMO.

[confusion]

Hapkido is a good hybrid style that uses kicks and hand strikes similar to taekwondo and joint locking and choking techniques. It also teaches escapes from the ground. Most women will be attacked by a man, often from behind and taken to the ground. It’s really important to know what to do THEN…A lot of people like to train primarily for fun and exercise tho. Most of the well known styles will fit the bill for that.

[kaisermetal]

If i am a woman and i’m about to be raped and only know BJJ she better be the female Marcelinho Garcia in order to avoid exchanging strength and taking the back.

[Miss_Parker]

[quote]kaisermetal wrote:
If i am a woman and i’m about to be raped and only know BJJ she better be the female Marcelinho Garcia in order to avoid exchanging strength and taking the back.[/quote]

This is very true. However, BJJ can be really helpful to get females comfortable with the idea that they can still have options when they’re on the ground - especially the concept of fighting from guard, which is still completely unknown to lots of females. I remember during one woman’s first BJJ class I had to pry her legs open to let her work guard because that’s just such a big no-no for females who don’t train.

Even better is an MMA school that will allow striking on the ground, because that’s what’s going to happen once they’re there if she’s not submitting.

Since BJJ is so readily accessible I would never discourage a female from training that style, but she should not believe she’s going to submit an attacker.

[anon31651765]

I so fucking disagree with recommending BJJ as self-defense for women it’s not even funny.

If a woman is being raped or nearly being raped, she should be going tiger-fucking crazy and trying to rip off bodyparts and bite faces and the like - grappling (which, call it what it is, ENGAGING) with someone a rapist is going to lead to the worst shit in the world. In my opinion, as a woman, you’re signing your death warrant.

If you train at BJJ for ten years and achieve some rank, yea, you’re going to give me some problems even if you’re smaller than me. But then I’ve also tossed around blue belts like bitches by blatantly outmuscling them. Yea, in a BJJ match, they’d have worn me out and won because I was exerting crazy amounts of force and would tire quickly.

But in real life, if it had been a “rape” scenario, I would have destroyed these fucks just by using overwhelming force at that initial instance of attack and beating them senseless after.

You’re really telling me that I couldn’t do the same thing to a woman, ESPECIALLY if she was not an absolute expert at her art, when I have weightlifting for ten years, weigh probably 50-75 lbs more than her, and have a good amount of experience both in and out of the ring?

You’re fucking crazy.

If you grapple with me, you’re staying in the game, instead of what you should be doing, which is trying like fuck to hurt me just enough to give you the chance to get the fuck away. If you engage with me, as a woman, and it’s actually combat (which is what a rape situation is much closer to), I will fuck you up. And in reality, me having that mindset already won 75 percent of the encounter.

Here’s another passage from Macyoung’s website, which kind of says it in a similar way:

Escape

The purpose of any physical engagement needs to be escape.

However, that doesn’t mean dashing around in panic like a goldfish in a bowl trying to escape from the net. That sort of escape attempt actually encourages an attacker to keep on attacking. We teach the “Fluffy the Cat” version of escape.

To best understand Fluffy, think back to the time you were sitting in the vet’s office holding a cat when someone walked in with a dog. All of a sudden that small little fluffy kitty becomes a maniac with four wheeled buzzsaw drive. Who did the cat use for traction? You know first hand how much damage something small and dedicated to escape can do.

That’s fighting your way to freedom.

If you ask most police officers who they would rather face a criminal attempting to climb over them to escape or a drunk who wants to fight them, they will almost all say “the fighter.” That’s because someone who is attempting to fight you is going to do far less damage to you than someone who is dedicated to climbing over your face in order to escape. Also someone who is trying to fight you is predictable and easily overwhelmed. While people trying to escape in this manner are unpredictable. And the more you try to control them the harder they attempt to climb over you.

Now often it is not possible to simply walk by someone who is attempting to rape you. Therefore powerful blows do need to be thrown. Not in an attempt to make him stop or to knock him out per se, but rather to clear a path for you to bolt towards the exit. Amazingly enough, blows that are thrown while attempting to “fight” are often less powerful and effective than those thrown while attempting to flee. This is because when you are attempting to reach the door, your entire bodyweight is moving and involved in the hits.

For women we don’t advocate kicking, but we do advocate elbows and forearm strikes as you are heading for the exit.

And always remember, don’t run from danger, run to safety.

[batman730]

For what little it’s worth I have to agree with Irish and by extension Macyoung. Not disparaging BJJ or saying it doesn’t conceivably have a place in personal protection, the idea of a woman with a realistic amount of training calmly and methodically applying BJJ techniques under the tremendous stress of a rape scenario in hopes of overcoming a larger, stronger more violent attacker through superior leverage and positioning sounds elegant but is a bit far fetched IMO. On the other hand exploding into feral, unadulterated ear-ripping, eye-gouging, finger-biting violence and savagery until the guy thinks “what is this fucking THING??!!” and allows an opportunity to GTFO, seems more plausible to me. “Fluffy the Cat” FTW.

Mentally breaking down one’s inhibitions to really go after someone in that fashion when the time comes seems to me to be one of the trickiest, but most important aspect of self-protection training. Of course this particular dead horse has already been severely beaten.

[kaisermetal]

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
I so fucking disagree with recommending BJJ as self-defense for women it’s not even funny.

If a woman is being raped or nearly being raped, she should be going tiger-fucking crazy and trying to rip off bodyparts and bite faces and the like - grappling (which, call it what it is, ENGAGING) with someone a rapist is going to lead to the worst shit in the world. In my opinion, as a woman, you’re signing your death warrant.

If you train at BJJ for ten years and achieve some rank, yea, you’re going to give me some problems even if you’re smaller than me. But then I’ve also tossed around blue belts like bitches by blatantly outmuscling them. Yea, in a BJJ match, they’d have worn me out and won because I was exerting crazy amounts of force and would tire quickly.

But in real life, if it had been a “rape” scenario, I would have destroyed these fucks just by using overwhelming force at that initial instance of attack and beating them senseless after.

You’re really telling me that I couldn’t do the same thing to a woman, ESPECIALLY if she was not an absolute expert at her art, when I have weightlifting for ten years, weigh probably 50-75 lbs more than her, and have a good amount of experience both in and out of the ring?

You’re fucking crazy.

If you grapple with me, you’re staying in the game, instead of what you should be doing, which is trying like fuck to hurt me just enough to give you the chance to get the fuck away. If you engage with me, as a woman, and it’s actually combat (which is what a rape situation is much closer to), I will fuck you up. And in reality, me having that mindset already won 75 percent of the encounter.

Here’s another passage from Macyoung’s website, which kind of says it in a similar way:

Escape

The purpose of any physical engagement needs to be escape.

However, that doesn’t mean dashing around in panic like a goldfish in a bowl trying to escape from the net. That sort of escape attempt actually encourages an attacker to keep on attacking. We teach the “Fluffy the Cat” version of escape.

To best understand Fluffy, think back to the time you were sitting in the vet’s office holding a cat when someone walked in with a dog. All of a sudden that small little fluffy kitty becomes a maniac with four wheeled buzzsaw drive. Who did the cat use for traction? You know first hand how much damage something small and dedicated to escape can do.

That’s fighting your way to freedom.

If you ask most police officers who they would rather face a criminal attempting to climb over them to escape or a drunk who wants to fight them, they will almost all say “the fighter.” That’s because someone who is attempting to fight you is going to do far less damage to you than someone who is dedicated to climbing over your face in order to escape. Also someone who is trying to fight you is predictable and easily overwhelmed. While people trying to escape in this manner are unpredictable. And the more you try to control them the harder they attempt to climb over you.

Now often it is not possible to simply walk by someone who is attempting to rape you. Therefore powerful blows do need to be thrown. Not in an attempt to make him stop or to knock him out per se, but rather to clear a path for you to bolt towards the exit. Amazingly enough, blows that are thrown while attempting to “fight” are often less powerful and effective than those thrown while attempting to flee. This is because when you are attempting to reach the door, your entire bodyweight is moving and involved in the hits.

For women we don’t advocate kicking, but we do advocate elbows and forearm strikes as you are heading for the exit.

And always remember, don’t run from danger, run to safety.
[/quote]

I entirely agree with everything written here and your remarks about cats and chainsaws make me laugh as a maniac. I just throwed the BJJ comparison for the LULZ.

Your arguments are very solid and the haters won’t be able to refute them.

[Robert_A]

The whole point of studying a martial art with an eye towards self-defense is to develop enough technique to compensate for shortcomings that are most likely going to be present in other areas.

The criminal gets to pick the time and place and make the go/no-go call. So if a criminal is assaulting someone it is a safe bet that they either feel the odds are sufficiently in their favor to get the results they want, or they are so fucking spun out that they are not doing any kind of risk vs. benefit assessment. This likely means the bad actor gets the initiative, plus other advantages such as size, speed, strength, manpower/numbers, or technology (i.e. weapons). Since they caused the jump off we can assume they are willing.

Since the selected victim is almost by definition unwilling they enjoy none of these advantages. In fact they/we will most likely be playing catch up in terms of awareness and willingness/mindset (if you are actively ready to rock and looking for a willing partner then the violence has become consensual/mutual combat). Criminal assaults tend to be ambushes or cases where the violence starts before the victim has come to terms with the reality that it is time to dance.

Surviving any ambush requires luck, since the ambusher has to do a poor enough job to leave you able to react(starting the mugging off eating a gunshot to the leg can throw a wrench in any cool-guy/gal ninja moves) or tip their hand early enough to warn you. Because of that sobering reality awareness and recognition of danger probably account for three fourths of what needs to be studied for self-defense. The scary fact is that no one is guaranteed to survive an attack that will by definition come at a bad time.

My major issue with BJJ for self-defense is the same issue I have with any physical art for self-defense. Martial arts/combative skills are only going to be of use if the time and opportunity are recognized early enough and quickly enough. The fact that BJJ should confer some level of skill and experience dealing with hostility from compromised positions is actually a plus in my eyes. If I say that BJJ teaches someone to stay engaged with one opponent and ignore weapons then I need to level the same criticism against boxing, kickboxing, judo, mma, and wrestling. In point of fact the only arts I have seen that reliably and consistently stress achieving and maintaining separation from attackers (plural form intended) are Aikido and Aiki-Jutsu.

As for technique, well if the BJJ is trained under realistic conditions than I do not have an issue with it. There are not very many BJJ schools that are including the striking/weapons/weapon retention/control of distance and mobility that I think needs to be addressed. Of course there are not many schools that fuck around with this stuff period.

I am going to go ahead and call the whole little women vs. big attacker thing a non-starter. If her technique is massively better than his it can make up for huge physical disadvantages in size and strength. Well trained women (This means she has dealt with fear, pain, and tasting her own blood in training. She has had plenty of come to Jesus moments in the dojo/gym and has decided to go on. This is not merely a reference to time spent training) vs. average scum bag who has her by less than 50 lbs. is not untenable. Anyone working against a 100 plus pound weight disadvantage had better be a lot more skilled than the heavyweight, and be plenty viscous/willing as well. I would make these statements about any style/stylist. So you better be Marcello to beat world class grapplers who are twice your size, but you merely have to be damn good to best an untrained heavyweight. Weapons can make physical size less relevant. Bring your own because when you need 'em it will be a “run what ya brung” affair.

NOTE:
I am just dealing with forcible rape as a type of criminal assault, and not a completely separate and distinct thing. My contention is that once the violence starts the morality of the actors is no longer a relevant question. The prologue and epilogue that go hand in hand with sex crimes have zero to do with efficient and effective technique to countering the active commission of said crimes. They may have a ton of sway when TRAINING for scenarios or when teaching past victims, but that is a different matter.

Regards,

Robert A

[confusion]

It’s important to keep in mind that most attacks made on people are not going to be by world class athletes, or even highly skilled fighters.

[anon31651765]

[quote]confusion wrote:
It’s important to keep in mind that most attacks made on people are not going to be by world class athletes, or even highly skilled fighters. [/quote]

Well, that’s true.

But the kind of people that are going to attack are also the kind who have become extremely accustomed to using violence to get what they want. Which means they’re going to be a lot more familiar with it than regular taxpayers.

Keep in mind also that criminals in general are also not likely to be stand up guys, or particularly smart guys, which means that they probably work or have worked a lot of manual labor jobs and are used to taking a beating.

Just other things to consider.

[Robert_A]

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

But the kind of people that are going to attack are also the kind who have become extremely accustomed to using violence to get what they want. Which means they’re going to be a lot more familiar with it than regular taxpayers.

Keep in mind also that criminals in general are also not likely to be stand up guys, or particularly smart guys, which means that they probably work or have worked a lot of manual labor jobs and are used to taking a beating.

Just other things to consider.

[/quote]

Quoted for truth.

This is why I am stressing getting good technique at something, boxing/submission grappling/karate/kickboxing/BJJ/Krav Maga/whatever. It is going to take a serious A game to overcome initiative + physical superiority. The opposition has every confidence in getting theirs at your expense, and they likely have good reason to feel so.

Foster technique that can be displayed under adverse conditions, because when you need it you will not be at your best and things will be at their worst.

Get your mind right.

Try to avoid at all costs. Observe the rule of the 3 Stupids. Don’t do stupid things. Don’t go stupid places. Don’t associate with stupid people. Honestly, the people I know who have bled the least couldn’t fight their way out of a ball crawl at Chuck E Cheez. They religiously observe the 3 Stupids. The rest of us idiots prepare.

After meeting those considerations: Address glaring omissions in your skill training(if you never grapple, maybe take a few seminars that cover getting back to your feet, if you never strike take a combatives course) and add all the dirty nasty aggressive shit that is banned from competition as an addition to YOUR technique.

Simply going rabid/feral on someone may freak them out and make them decide to re-locate if they are less than committed to the task at hand and that is fine, but when you add this kind of “nasty” to sound technique THAN you can solve a whole lot of problems and make most folks decide that the your “juice just ain’t worth the squeeze”.

Regards,

Robert A

[anon31651765]

I will admit that for women, it’s just not as easy though. I think it’s much harder to “avoid” things like I would because this awful kind of shit happens to them when they go out on dates or whatever… and it’s much harder to see the warning signs coming than it is for someone like me when I’m walking through Paterson or whatever.

[Robert_A]

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
I will admit that for women, it’s just not as easy though. I think it’s much harder to “avoid” things like I would because this awful kind of shit happens to them when they go out on dates or whatever… and it’s much harder to see the warning signs coming than it is for someone like me when I’m walking through Paterson or whatever.[/quote]

True enough. Also the physical proximity is going to be a hell of a lot closer much of the time. There are plenty of situations where a woman may let a man get to bad breath/inside arms length before it is really obvious that an assault is happening. I don’t imagine you have to deal with dudes pushing a hug “too far”. Add to that my suspicion that you are a bit more ring-wise about this stuff than the mean of the bell curve and the problem really starts to come into focus. The intended market for woman’s self defense training will not see the bad thing coming until far later than you will. Compared to them you are damn near prescent. Even once they notice they may doubt and eat up more precious time/space.

Makes point for grappling/clinch training, but with the goal of making him decide to let go and stay gone rather than to get close and dominate. Not sure if we are supposed to call this “anti-grappling”, or “counter grappling”, or what. That is why I am not so quick to condemn grappling as a primary/foundation for self defense.

Regards,

Robert A

[anon31651765]

I can agree with that. At the surface grappling seems like a good idea, for the reasons that many have mentioned - namely, the position they want you in is the position where, as a grappler, you’ll be most comfortable.

But like I said, grappling means engaging. Engaging, for a woman against a man, means losing. Every thought should be directed at ESCAPE, not strategy, not tactics, not countering.

I’ve always liked Macyoung’s example of the 5 lb. cat that you can’t keep in your hands. That cat doesn’t want to kill you, it doesn’t want to fight or stay around any longer than it has to - it wants the fuck away, right fucking now, and that’s it.

If there is a “Grappling for self defense” course that outlined this, I would support that kind of thing. But then it’s not really grappling, is it? The goal of “grappling” be it wrestling or BJJ or whatever, is to WIN. To submit. To dominate.

Because the goal of self-defense, especially in the woman’s case, is to not sustain damage and escape quickly, the tactics MUST be totally different.

It’s like if I lived in Libya right now in one of those towns that the rebels and the government troops are fighting for. As a civilian, I don’t want to be in the thick of it, I want to GTFO of town. Would I use small unit tactics to get out? Would i find a weapon and wait for the opportune time to strike? Would I barricade my doors, stockpile weapons, and keep watch out the windows?

Hell no. Those are tactics that combatants use. I’m no combatant - I just want to get out of the city by whatever means necessary, engage someone only if I absolutely had to but even that would be a running fight cause I don’t fuckin care about winning, I care about LEAVING.

Same concept.

The tactics MUST match the goal. The tactics for grappling don’t match the goal of escaping. While other arts don’t either, most are more effective at a distance and do not require body to body contact - land a punch, while they’re recovering, I’m already gone. You’re on top of me, I’m digging my thumb nail into your eyeball, while you reel, I’m gone.

[Miss_Parker]

Irish, I have the flu right now, so I’m half brain dead & so will just ask - were you saying that “no Bjj for self-defense” stuff to me? Because I agree with that. I don’t believe I’ve ever recommended BJJ for actual self defense training.

I’m just talking about a female wanting to train long term, not learning how to stay alive right now under a real attack. So I guess I was thinking more about the OP than the guy I responded to.

The females I train with who are brand new to this tend to curl up into a ball under training stress on the ground or just keep trying to push their partner away if they (I) are on top of them. Its not just guard…females tend to try to keep people away by pushing/resisting. They make their bodies really stiff & try to jerk their hands away & back up. If they strike at all they do it once, then stop to look at you to see the result, creating a second freeze.

I think understanding that having someone in your guard or just pressed against you needn’t trigger freezing/panicking…getting past that response so you can actually learn to fight & escape…is an important part of training for females. Having that part down allows you the freedom to learn to become a 5 pound cat.

It’s like this: If self-defense training were a blueberry pie, then BJJ would be a pinch of cinnamon. You definitely don’t need it to make a good pie, it just adds a little bit of depth of you happen to have it around the kitchen.

That being said, two weeks ago I showed my coach an escape from mount a BJJ friend had showed me. We took the position, were kind of working through it at about 50% and still talking. The second time we did it, right before I “escaped” I asked him, “what do you think of this technique?” The move requires you to move your hands in a way that exposes your head, so he hit me in the face & said, “I dunno, what do YOU think of it?” So every style has its limits, don’t you boys agree?

Will check back when fever is down to see if this made any sense at all.

[Robert_A]

Keeping in mind that I am making a distiction between ability(what you can do), tactics(what exactly you are trying to accomplish while in the shit), and strategy(everything when not in hostile contact):

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
I can agree with that. At the surface grappling seems like a good idea, for the reasons that many have mentioned - namely, the position they want you in is the position where, as a grappler, you’ll be most comfortable.

But like I said, grappling means engaging. Engaging, for a woman against a man, means losing. Every thought should be directed at ESCAPE, not strategy, not tactics, not countering.

I’ve always liked Macyoung’s example of the 5 lb. cat that you can’t keep in your hands. That cat doesn’t want to kill you, it doesn’t want to fight or stay around any longer than it has to - it wants the fuck away, right fucking now, and that’s it.

If there is a “Grappling for self defense” course that outlined this, I would support that kind of thing. But then it’s not really grappling, is it? The goal of “grappling” be it wrestling or BJJ or whatever, is to WIN. To submit. To dominate.

Because the goal of self-defense, especially in the woman’s case, is to not sustain damage and escape quickly, the tactics MUST be totally different.

[/quote]
I am not arguing your point on tactics, I would post in on pretty much every dojo wall if I could. My issue is that the mechanics/technique that you develop by training grappling are what allows you to accomplish those tactics against bigger, stronger, and committed opposition that wants your blood or worse. It is sound foundational technique PLUS the nasty that gets us there. Sure the focus on game/techniques might drift a bit if the emphasis is no ref, but the mechanics are going to be the same. I don’t think merely being viscous is going to get it done, actually to be specific: We are not training for the people whom simply being viscous/violent will handle. We are training for the people where it is not nearly enough. Good AND viscous.

I put the notion that gouging/biting/ripping will solve all the grappling problems in the same catagory of BS as saying eye poking and kicks to the knee cap and testicles are all that is needed to handle a boxer. Neither works out if the boxer or grappler is any good. On the other hand if you have a decent amount of skill and are resolved to be brutal enough, soon enough than you can survive against someone far superior.

[quote]
The tactics MUST match the goal. The tactics for grappling don’t match the goal of escaping. While other arts don’t either, most are more effective at a distance and do not require body to body contact - land a punch, while they’re recovering, I’m already gone. You’re on top of me, I’m digging my thumb nail into your eyeball, while you reel, I’m gone. [/quote]

I get what you are saying and I concur. My addition is that the better grappler you are the smaller a reaction you will need from that eye gouge to get out of trouble. Much the same as the better your boxing the easier you’ll be able to snake in a shot or three to get the opening you need to leave.

I will also point out that if you need to injure and not just hurt your man than it is going to be even more important that you be “good” as well as “willing”.

If someone loves BJJ and is worried about self-defense I am fine with them getting MacYoung and McCann’s material and practicing that as well. So, sport/base they love plus a minimalist approach to the glaring faults. Same advice to the boxer.

Regards,

Robert A

[legendaryblaze]

Obviously.
-Boxing is great but it doesn’t teach you how to deal with a judoka or wrestler that has a hold on you. Also, you need a different technique and less strength when fighting bare handed.
-Wrestling is great but it doesn’t teach you how to deal with strikes. The recovery portion of a wrestler is to fall down with your back exposed. Great way to get choked out. The bent over style makes you susceptible to basically any attack to the head.
-BJJ is great but it’s completely impractical in any real world scenario(haha).
-Kyokushin Karate is great but the lack of face punches to the head makes it a huge problem since that’s what most people who you encounter go after.
-Muay Thai is great but the emphasis on high kicks and using boxing gloves can mean you can set yourself up to be taken down and break your hands (as with boxing).
-Judo is great but it requires getting entangled with the opponent which means to be effective you have to stay against the opponent, which can make it difficult to escape if he’s got a good hold on you. Not ideal if our ‘buddy’ has a knife on him. Some of the throws require you to throw yourself as well.
-Sprinting is great but it’s only useful after you’ve ‘neutralized’ your attacker.

Solution?

Good thread.

[DarkNinjaa]

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

For women we don’t advocate kicking, but we do advocate elbows and forearm strikes as you are heading for the exit.

And always remember, don’t run from danger, run to safety.
[/quote]

The post was great. But this is what I liked the most. Very well said.